Method Whipped cream, bag and mask

[Hagi_Im]

Hello everyone, I want to tell you about method with which I want to take the bus . In general, a user with @Intoxicated shared information about whipped cream. Special thanks to him. I can say that I have 2 methods. The first is to fill a bag with nitrous oxide, put it on your head and seal your neck with duct tape. In principle, this is not difficult if you know how to do it correctly. The second method is to pump N2O into the bag, then attach the CPAP tube to the bag and mask and seal it so that oxygen does not get in. I tested the effect of nitrous oxide on myself, and I am 100% sure that it will work. Write what you think, it will be interesting to read. Any shortcomings, criticism, etc.

 

[Jadeith]

Basically we're talking about exit bag method and it's variations here. So yea, any inert gas (except CO2 obviously) will work. Trick is to a)fill your lungs with inert gas, b) still remove CO2 from your system, preventing emergency response from kicking in. So, tight sealing bag around your neck is not recommended since you want inert gas mixed with breathed out CO2 to be pushed out of bag by fresh supply of inert gas. See relevant megathread.

Exit bag and inert gas megathread

Exit Bag and Inert Gas Basics —A very, very long post, I know, but I feel like I've fielded a lot of questions about this, so I figured I'd spell out everything I know. Others on the forum should please add to this thread whatever reliable technical information they feel is appropriate for...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[Hagi_Im]

Basically we're talking about exit bag method and it's variations here. So yea, any inert gas (except CO2 obviously) will work. Trick is to a)fill your lungs with inert gas, b) still remove CO2 from your system, preventing emergency response from kicking in. So, tight sealing bag around your neck is not recommended since you want inert gas mixed with breathed out CO2 to be pushed out of bag by fresh supply of inert gas. See relevant megathread.

Exit bag and inert gas megathread

Exit Bag and Inert Gas Basics —A very, very long post, I know, but I feel like I've fielded a lot of questions about this, so I figured I'd spell out everything I know. Others on the forum should please add to this thread whatever reliable technical information they feel is appropriate for...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Unfortunately, I won't be able to make a constant air flow, as I'll be using small 8g N2O cartridges, not a full-size 10L cylinder. The principle of this method is similar to the exit bag + inert gas from PPH, only the emphasis is not on displacing CO2 with a constant flow of inert gas, but on ensuring the loss of sensitivity to CO2 before it accumulates inside the hermetically sealed bag in quantities that cause discomfort. In order to quickly and smoothly pass out, the ratio of air to nitrous oxide should be no more than 1:3, taking into account the initial presence of air in the lungs, the volume of which should be minimized by a full exhalation before putting on the bag.

 

[Jadeith]

Well, all i can do is wish you luck and painless journey. Personally i'm too afraid of failure so i'm going for full N2 tank with SN as a backup.

 

[Hagi_Im]

Well, all i can do is wish you luck and painless journey. Personally i'm too afraid of failure so i'm going for full N2 tank with SN as a backup.

Yes, I would like to use a cylinder, but unfortunately I have nowhere to store it and I will do CTB in the forest or mountains. And it will be difficult to drag such a colossus. I do not live alone, so it will not work at home, and if I bring a cylinder to a hotel, it will be very suspicious. Therefore, I will find a place where my body will be found only in 2-3 days. And the load in the form of small cylinders will not be difficult to drag. Yes, and I wish you good luck.

 

[Jadeith]

if I bring a cylinder to a hotel, it will be very suspicious

You can try to conceal it as diving equipment but i agree that hauling it around in the forest/mountainside will prove challenging.

 

[사람이 없어]

You can try to conceal it as diving equipment but i agree that hauling it around in the forest/mountainside will prove challenging.

Maybe a really big duffel bag would do the trick, wouldn't look too out of place if you say it's for camping/supplies.

 

[Intoxicated]

So yea, any inert gas (except CO2 obviously) will work.

Actually, CO2 would work too, causing loss of consciousness maybe even faster than inert gases. Respiratory arrest from CO2 is also very rapid - just about 1 - 1.5 minutes at concentration of 30% or above. The main drawback is significant discomfort.

b) still remove CO2 from your system, preventing emergency response from kicking in.

Is there any actual research that demonstrates "emergency response" in unconscious people? I know that the PPH authors expressed some concerns about accumulation of CO2, but they didn't offer any decent evidence in support of mandatory continuous removal of CO2.

Besides, nitrous oxide has anesthetic properties which most inert gases (like nitrogen, helium and argon) don't have (krypton and xenon are notable exceptions). N2O has been proven to suppress hypercapnia-associated symptoms at elevated CO2 levels in people

https://i.sanctioned-suicide.net/images/2025/02/221151_Death_from_Nitrous_Oxide.pdf

https://i.sanctioned-suicide.net/images/2025/02/221152_nitrous_oxide_reduces_dyspnoea.pdf

that makes necessity in constant flushing of CO2 even more questionable in case of using N2O gas asphyxiation particularly.

So, tight sealing bag around your neck is not recommended since you want inert gas mixed with breathed out CO2 to be pushed out of bag by fresh supply of inert gas. See relevant megathread.

Exit bag and inert gas megathread

Exit Bag and Inert Gas Basics —A very, very long post, I know, but I feel like I've fielded a lot of questions about this, so I figured I'd spell out everything I know. Others on the forum should please add to this thread whatever reliable technical information they feel is appropriate for...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Does that megathread provide any realistic (and preferably evidence-supported) explanation of how an unconscious person may be influenced by hypercapnic alarm (keeping in mind that this unconsciousness is hypoxia-induced and it's not just a plain sleep)? As far as I can see, the first posts there don't go any farther than just parroting what PPH said in this regard.

You can try to conceal it as diving equipment but i agree that hauling it around in the forest/mountainside will prove challenging.

I think, a dude with a gas tank in a hotel would look very suspiciously ))) Especially if there are no well-known places for diving nearby (I guess, diving in a hotel's bathtub wouldn't look like a good excuse, LOL). The OP could have a hard time trying to explain the security staff that the tank doesn't contain a flammable/explosive or toxic gas and it doesn't pose any risk for the building and people inside it.

 

[Jadeith]

Actually, CO2 would work too, causing loss of consciousness maybe even faster than inert gases. Respiratory arrest from CO2 is also very rapid - just about 1 - 1.5 minutes at concentration of 30% or above. The main drawback is significant discomfort.

Yes, i should be more precise - "not working" in this case meant that it will be far from pleasant since suffocation SI response for humans is triggered by raised levels of CO2 in blood.. Will it be faster than other inert gasses? No. It's abut the same since in all cases you cut off the O2, depending only on how effectively you replace the O2 with said gas.

Is there any actual research that demonstrates "emergency response" in unconscious people?

Yes, it's basic human biology and can be most easily observed in drowning people who, while well past the "consious/unconsious" point, still try to swim and even attack rescuers, all this while holding their breath.

Instinctive drowning response - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Same with placing your hand over unconscious person face. They will fight it. Of course, if hypoxia sets deeply enough, there'll no oxygen to power the muscles so any fighting response will cease at this point.

Besides, nitrous oxide has anesthetic properties which most inert gases (like nitrogen, helium and argon) don't have (krypton and xenon are notable exceptions). N2O has been proven to suppress hypercapnia-associated symptoms at elevated CO2 levels in people

Basically any non biologically active gas will work the same way as long as you can remove CO2 from your system. That's where industrial accidents happen. People falling to N2 atmosphere or waste disposal workers

https://www.csb.gov/assets/1/20/nitrogen_asphyxiation_bulletin_training_presentation.pdf?15062

Two workers die of suffocation in waste disposal tank in Thrissur

Two workers reportedly died from suffocation after they ventured into a sullage tank installed at a bakery production unit for liquid waste disposal at Karoor in Aloor panchayat near Chalakudy on September 25 (Wednesday) around 2 p.m.

www.thehindu.com

With nitrous oxide being actually an exception because it's not biologically inert. It does interact with human organism, hence it's medical uses.

Does that megathread provide

Since it's a megathread i honestly didn't check what exactly it contains, post by post. But if you are interested in more scientific approach, i'm sure that sources outside SaSu will be heplful.

I think, a dude with a gas tank in a hotel would look very suspiciously

What - i'm traveling to a destination with water. Never said that i'm gonna dive at the hotel's location, it's just a pit-stop

 

[Intoxicated]

Will it be faster than other inert gasses? No. It's abut the same since in all cases you cut off the O2, depending only on how effectively you replace the O2 with said gas.

Unlike nitrogen and nobel gases, CO2 is a chemical asphyxiant that can kill a human without limiting oxygen concentration in the breathed gas mixture. Inhaling CO2 at concentration of 30% is rapidly fatal regardless of how much O2 you add to it. 30% CO2 + 70% O2 is nearly as deadly as 30% CO2 + 70% N2 + 0% O2. The effects of carbon dioxide poisoning are well explained in the resources below

Carbon Dioxide: A Simple Asphyxiant?

“In the last two decades of the twentieth century, hundreds of people have died of carbon dioxide asphyxiation near volcanoes in Cameroon and in Indonesia.” — Allison Stark Draper, in Coping With Natural Disasters Many worry about carbon dioxide in the atmosphere as a greenhouse gas. Carbon...

bluefieldsafety.com

Carbon dioxide poisoning: a literature review of an often forgotten cause of intoxication in the emergency department - PMC

The goal of this article was to provide an overview of the literature available on carbon dioxide intoxication. Articles were included based on their focus on medical or physiological effects of carbon dioxide. Studies related to decompression ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2015-06/documents/co2appendixb.pdf

I don't know about any researches that would compare time to LOC from CO2 poisoning and from asphyxiation by simple asphyxiants (like N2 or Ar), but I could expect that CO2 may induce unconsciousness slightly faster, considering how aggressively it acts.

Yes, it's basic human biology and can be most easily observed in drowning people who, while well past the "consious/unconsious" point, still try to swim and even attack rescuers, all this while holding their breath.

Unconscious people fighting rescuers - that sounds like urban legends ))) I wouldn't take such stories seriously.

Same with placing your hand over unconscious person face. They will fight it.

That depends on the type of unconsciousness. If the person was put under general anesthesia, I doubt that they would do anything. Inert gas asphyxiation is able to induce the state equivalent to general anesthesia within 2 minutes, as proven by the experiments of F. Hewitt whose dental patients were fully anesthetized after inhaling a mixture of 95% nitrogen and 5% oxygen for 75 - 95 seconds (https://i.sanctioned-suicide.net/images/2024/12/215946_N2O_-_BRITISH_JOURNAL_OF_ANAESTHESIA.pdf page 956).

Of course, if hypoxia sets deeply enough, there'll no oxygen to power the muscles so any fighting response will cease at this point.

People experience lack of responsiveness in muscles even before losing consciousness from breathing asphyxiants. I went through this stage too, as I tried N2O asphyxiation on myself, and I hardly imagine how you could "fight" beyond that point, after starting to feel yourself paralyzed.

What - i'm traveling to a destination with water. Never said that i'm gonna dive at the hotel's location, it's just a pit-stop

In the OP's country, citizens have registered residence address written in their passports. They are required (by law) to present passport before checking into a hotel. If you're a citizen who wants to pretend to be a traveler there, you'd have to move to a different city than the one specified in your passport. And transportation of a heavy cylinder across cities without having own car would be a pain in the ass.

Not having a car is common in the OP's country due to big expenses (many people don't have a good income there), lack of convenient parking places, and presence of developed public transport. If you have a car, it would be more safe to drive to a quiet place and carry out CTB inside the car than deal with hotels.

 

[wham311]

Unlike nitrogen and nobel gases, CO2 is a chemical asphyxiant that can kill a human without limiting oxygen concentration in the breathed gas mixture. Inhaling CO2 at concentration of 30% is rapidly fatal regardless of how much O2 you add to it. 30% CO2 + 70% O2 is nearly as deadly as 30% CO2 + 70% N2 + 0% O2. The effects of carbon dioxide poisoning are well explained in the resources below

Carbon Dioxide: A Simple Asphyxiant?

“In the last two decades of the twentieth century, hundreds of people have died of carbon dioxide asphyxiation near volcanoes in Cameroon and in Indonesia.” — Allison Stark Draper, in Coping With Natural Disasters Many worry about carbon dioxide in the atmosphere as a greenhouse gas. Carbon...

bluefieldsafety.com

Carbon dioxide poisoning: a literature review of an often forgotten cause of intoxication in the emergency department - PMC

The goal of this article was to provide an overview of the literature available on carbon dioxide intoxication. Articles were included based on their focus on medical or physiological effects of carbon dioxide. Studies related to decompression ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2015-06/documents/co2appendixb.pdf

I don't know about any researches that would compare time to LOC from CO2 poisoning and from asphyxiation by simple asphyxiants (like N2 or Ar), but I could expect that CO2 may induce unconsciousness slightly faster, considering how aggressively it acts.

Unconscious people fighting rescuers - that sounds like urban legends ))) I wouldn't take such stories seriously.

That depends on the type of unconsciousness. If the person was put under general anesthesia, I doubt that they would do anything. Inert gas asphyxiation is able to induce the state equivalent to general anesthesia within 2 minutes, as proven by the experiments of F. Hewitt whose dental patients were fully anesthetized after inhaling a mixture of 95% nitrogen and 5% oxygen for 75 - 95 seconds (https://i.sanctioned-suicide.net/images/2024/12/215946_N2O_-_BRITISH_JOURNAL_OF_ANAESTHESIA.pdf page 956).

People experience lack of responsiveness in muscles even before losing consciousness from breathing asphyxiants. I went through this stage too, as I tried N2O asphyxiation on myself, and I hardly imagine how you could "fight" beyond that point, after starting to feel yourself paralyzed.

In the OP's country, citizens have registered residence address written in their passports. They are required (by law) to present passport before checking into a hotel. If you're a citizen who wants to pretend to be a traveler there, you'd have to move to a different city than the one specified in your passport. And transportation of a heavy cylinder across cities without having own car would be a pain in the ass.

Not having a car is common in the OP's country due to big expenses (many people don't have a good income there), lack of convenient parking places, and presence of developed public transport. If you have a car, it would be more safe to drive to a quiet place and carry out CTB inside the car than deal with hotels.

Hey I'm desperate to get out of here, do you have a step by step people can follow

 

[Intoxicated]

Hey I'm desperate to get out of here, do you have a step by step people can follow

Preparations.

Obtain a 500 ml whipped cream dispenser and 20 or more 8g N2O chargers, a few latex balloons withstanding expansion up to 25 cm or more in diameter, 5 - 10 identical LDPE bags having the real capacity of 20 - 35 liters each (the real capacity may significantly differ from the one declared by the manufacturer), PVC electrical tape, and nail scissors with sharp edges.

Disassembly and wash the dispenser from inside with warm water, then dry it before the first use.

Test for light euphoria from N2O.

Put the opening end of the prepared latex balloon on the output of the dispenser. Place an N2O charger into the holder with the smallest end facing upwards. Twist the charger holder onto the head of the dispenser until you hear a hiss as the gas starts to be released. Hold the latex balloon by one hand and press the lever of the dispenser to release the gas into the balloon.

Hyperventilate for 20 seconds, compress the opening end of the balloon, take it off, choose a safe location and position in order to avoid injuries due to falling, plug the nose, make several deep breaths into and from the balloon for about half a minute or until unusual sensations occur. Breathe with fresh atmospheric air for half a minute, then repeat respirations with the balloon for about 20 seconds, then breathe with atmospheric air as usually.

Test for fainting from N2O.

If the dispenser contains only air, the dispenser should be filled with N2O as described above and the gas mixture (about 8 parts of N2O + 1 part of air) should be removed from the dispenser in order to reduce the percent of air (and particularly oxygen) inside (the gas can be used for relaxation) and the dispenser should be refilled with another N2O charger.

Fill the prepared latex balloon as described above, lie on your side on a bed, hyperventilate for 20 seconds, exhale as much air as possible by applying a significant effort, inhale as much gas from the balloon as possible, then hold your breath for about 30 seconds.

If you couldn't pass out from inhaling a single portion and you want to try to achieve a complete blackout nevertheless, then you can refill the balloon right after the first inhalation, exhale the gas mixture from the lungs maximally, and inhale the second portion similarly to the first one.

Training proper handling of plastic bag.

Before the actual CTB procedure is performed, it makes sense to train the skills of putting the bag over the head and sealing it properly.

Exercise 1. A plastic bag should be inflated with air, punctured by scissors, and ripped by hands in order to determine the effort needed to restore breathing with fresh air in emergency case - if you can't unseal it quickly enough just by unwrapping the tape.

Exercise 2. A plastic bag should be inflated with air (up to the full capacity), then its opening end should be closed and placed right above the head (as close as possible). After that, the bag should be placed over the head so that its opening end would cover the neck, approximately 1/4 - 1/3 part of the remaining air should be removed from the bag by compressing it with a hand, and 3 circles of electrical tape should be wrapped around the neck.

Exercise 3. Put the opening end of the bag on the output of the dispenser, secure the connection with 1.5 - 2 circles of electrical tape. Try to inflate the bag with gas from the dispenser filled with a single N2O charger, then unwrap and remove the tape. Removing the tape should not cause disruption of the bag.

Test for potential airtightness of a secured bag.

A plastic bag is placed over the head and secured over the neck as described above in Exercise 2, then 5 - 10 matches containing sulfur are burned nearby and placed into a bowl with water. If you can't notice the smell of sulfur dioxide for a minute after that, the bag may be deemed airtight.

CTB protocol.

1. Prepare an LDPE plastic bag having the real capacity of 20 - 35 liters. Inflate the bag with air and inspect it for possible leaks. After checking the bag, remove as much air from it as possible.
2. If the dispenser contains only air, use an N2O charger to displace air as described above in the section "Test for fainting from N2O".
3. Put the opening end of the bag on the output of the dispenser, secure the connection with 1.5 - 2 circles of electrical tape. Release N2O from a charger into the dispenser and then from the dispenser into the bag. Repeat the cycle of filling the dispenser and the bag until the full capacity of the bag is used. Do not ever refill the dispenser before releasing previously charged gas from it. Avoid a possible excess of pressure in the bag that might lead to disruption.
4. Unwrap and remove the tape, detach the bag from the dispenser, close its opening end by hands, preventing (or reducing to bare minimum) possible leaks.
5. Hyperventilate for 30 - 60 seconds.
6. This step should be done quickly and immediately after step 5. Sit down and place the opening end of the bag right above the head (as close as possible).
7. This step should be done quickly and immediately after step 6. Exhale as much air from the lungs as possible by applying a significant effort, stop breathing and place the bag over the head so that its opening end would cover the neck. Remove approximately 1/4 - 1/3 part of the remaining N2O gas from the bag by compressing it with a hand.
8. This step should be done quickly and immediately after step 7. Wrap 7 - 10 circles of PVC electrical tape around the neck (over the bag) and lie on the ground or the floor.
9. Inhale deeply and then breathe as you like.

 

[wham311]

I feel like everyone's just going to remove the bag

 

[encore]

I feel like everyone's just going to remove the bag

there have been cases of death with the bag unsecured. i highly doubt it would be possible to simply remove it if any effort at all was put into securing it - that is, using tape and ensuring you cant tear it on accident with sharp edges of furniture while the body is thrashing, etc.

 

[wham311]

Actually, CO2 would work too, causing loss of consciousness maybe even faster than inert gases. Respiratory arrest from CO2 is also very rapid - just about 1 - 1.5 minutes at concentration of 30% or above. The main drawback is significant discomfort.

Is there any actual research that demonstrates "emergency response" in unconscious people? I know that the PPH authors expressed some concerns about accumulation of CO2, but they didn't offer any decent evidence in support of mandatory continuous removal of CO2.

Besides, nitrous oxide has anesthetic properties which most inert gases (like nitrogen, helium and argon) don't have (krypton and xenon are notable exceptions). N2O has been proven to suppress hypercapnia-associated symptoms at elevated CO2 levels in people

https://i.sanctioned-suicide.net/images/2025/02/221151_Death_from_Nitrous_Oxide.pdf

https://i.sanctioned-suicide.net/images/2025/02/221152_nitrous_oxide_reduces_dyspnoea.pdf

that makes necessity in constant flushing of CO2 even more questionable in case of using N2O gas asphyxiation particularly.

Does that megathread provide any realistic (and preferably evidence-supported) explanation of how an unconscious person may be influenced by hypercapnic alarm (keeping in mind that this unconsciousness is hypoxia-induced and it's not just a plain sleep)? As far as I can see, the first posts there don't go any farther than just parroting what PPH said in this regard.

I think, a dude with a gas tank in a hotel would look very suspiciously ))) Especially if there are no well-known places for diving nearby (I guess, diving in a hotel's bathtub wouldn't look like a good excuse, LOL). The OP could have a hard time trying to explain the security staff that the tank doesn't contain a flammable/explosive or toxic gas and it doesn't pose any risk for the building and people inside it.

Hey dude don't mean to derail, do you know anything about the detergent/ h2s method? Like what products to mix

 

[Intoxicated]

Hey dude don't mean to derail, do you know anything about the detergent/ h2s method? Like what products to mix

Yes, I know pretty much about it. But I have some ethical dilemma about telling the basics to someone who is unable to find the preparation methods via common search engines, since H2S is a hazardous matter capable of injuring yourself and others if it's not handled properly. Whoever chooses H2S poisoning, they should have some decent level of intelligence for carrying out such a CTB method in an appropriate way.

Recently someone asked me about how quickly I regain consciousness after passing out from N2O. I told him that consciousness is regained a few seconds later since breathing with fresh air is resumed. The only thing he remembered eventually is that N2O renders unconsciousness for at most 10 seconds (omitting any conditions as if they were not important at all). Some people here are lacking of common sense, and teaching such people to make potent gaseous poisons like H2S or HCN could be like giving a grenade to a monkey. On the other hand, I don't mind discussing H2S/HCN topics in depth with those who show good abilities at processing information.

 

[Jadeith]

Unlike nitrogen and nobel gases, CO2 is a chemical asphyxiant that can kill a human without limiting oxygen concentration in the breathed gas mixture. Inhaling CO2 at concentration of 30% is rapidly fatal regardless of how much O2 you add to it. 30% CO2 + 70% O2 is nearly as deadly as 30% CO2 + 70% N2 + 0% O2. The effects of carbon dioxide poisoning are well explained in the resources below

Thing is - will it be anything close to pleasant? See, 30/70 mixture of CO2 and N2 will work perfectly because there's still room to remove residual CO2 from your body, hence no emergency response. Pure CO2 - no fun.

Unconscious people fighting rescuers - that sounds like urban legends ))) I wouldn't take such stories seriously.

Sadly it's not an urban legend. Just last year father and son drowned near my location. Kid started drowning, dad rushed to the rescue, kid drowned them both. Ask any life guard how does it work.

That depends on the type of unconsciousness.

Of course - was referring to trauma induced unconsciousness, like fist to the face

In the OP's country, citizens have registered residence address written in their passports. They are required (by law) to present passport before checking into a hotel. If you're a citizen who wants to pretend to be a traveler there, you'd have to move to a different city than the one specified in your passport. And transportation of a heavy cylinder across cities without having own car would be a pain in the ass.

Not having a car is common in the OP's country due to big expenses (many people don't have a good income there), lack of convenient parking places, and presence of developed public transport. If you have a car, it would be more safe to drive to a quiet place and carry out CTB inside the car than deal with hotels.

Never implied it would be easy. Only said that it shouldn't be viewed as suspicious.

 

[wham311]

Yes, I know pretty much about it. But I have some ethical dilemma about telling the basics to someone who is unable to find the preparation methods via common search engines, since H2S is a hazardous matter capable of injuring yourself and others if it's not handled properly. Whoever chooses H2S poisoning, they should have some decent level of intelligence for carrying out such a CTB method in an appropriate way.

Recently someone asked me about how quickly I regain consciousness after passing out from N2O. I told him that consciousness is regained a few seconds later since breathing with fresh air is resumed. The only thing he remembered eventually is that N2O renders unconsciousness for at most 10 seconds (omitting any conditions as if they were not important at all). Some people here are lacking of common sense, and teaching such people to make potent gaseous poisons like H2S or HCN could be like giving a grenade to a monkey. On the other hand, I don't mind discussing H2S/HCN topics in depth with those who show good abilities at processing information.

The method I saw on YouTube required heating, I'm just not sure how someone would do that in a car so I figured there may have been an easier way.

 

[Intoxicated]

Thing is - will it be anything close to pleasant?

No. But unconsciousness occurs relatively fast. For 30% CO2 + 70% O2 mixture, the average time to LOC is below 30 seconds. CO2 poisoning could be useful for those people who can't access less unpleasant methods of CTB with an acceptable effort.

See, 30/70 mixture of CO2 and N2 will work perfectly because there's still room to remove residual CO2 from your body, hence no emergency response.

30% CO2 in the breathed gas mixture will saturate the blood with carbon dioxide at much higher rate than the inverse process of removing CO2 from the blood would happen. This is why quick LOC is imminent even if the remaining 70% is oxygen.

Sadly it's not an urban legend. Just last year father and son drowned near my location. Kid started drowning, dad rushed to the rescue, kid drowned them both. Ask any life guard how does it work.

Some uncoordinated moves are possible, but excitement is typical during the second stage of general anesthesia too (right after LOC), and it's not related to accumulation of CO2. I haven't seen any mentioning of surgical patients removing their face mask during the excitement/delirium stage.

Only said that it shouldn't be viewed as suspicious.

Hotels commonly prohibit bringing materials or items that are dangerous to health or life. Don't forget about anti-terrorism measures. A big cylinder with an unknown gas doesn't look like an innocent item that people would bring in hotels on daily basis. I'm pretty sure that such visitors are extremely rare, so your equipment would likely attract a lot of attention.

The method I saw on YouTube required heating, I'm just not sure how someone would do that in a car so I figured there may have been an easier way.

Wikipedia describes several methods that can be easily searched.

 

[Jadeith]

No. But unconsciousness occurs relatively fast. For 30% CO2 + 70% O2 mixture, the average time to LOC is below 30 seconds. CO2 poisoning could be useful for those people who can't access less unpleasant methods of CTB with an acceptable effort.

Obtaining any type of gas mixture is more or less problematic (transport, family suspicions etc.) so if i'm going to choose gas method i'd rather aim for peaceful one, without "relativity" involved.

Some uncoordinated moves are possible, but excitement is typical during the second stage of general anesthesia too (right after LOC), and it's not related to accumulation of CO2. I haven't seen any mentioning of surgical patients removing their face mask during the excitement/delirium stage.

Again, these are not "uncoordinated movements" and, as you said, excitement during anesthesia is not CO2 buildup related so no connection there.

Hotels commonly prohibit bringing materials or items that are dangerous to health or life. Don't forget about anti-terrorism measures. A big cylinder with an unknown gas doesn't look like an innocent item that people would bring in hotels on daily basis. I'm pretty sure that such visitors are extremely rare, so your equipment would likely attract a lot of attention.

Diving equipment is not viewed as such, terrorism or not and while it might (and should) spark some initial attention, simple explanation should easily divert it elsewhere.

 

[Intoxicated]

Obtaining any type of gas mixture is more or less problematic (transport, family suspicions etc.)

CO2 can be produced by mixing common household chemicals (like citric acid and baking soda) in water. They're very easy to obtain and to transport, and their possession and storage provoke minimum suspicions in contrast to a nitrogen cylinder.

Cream dispenser and N2O chargers are somewhere between chemicals for making CO2 and N2 cylinder in terms of ease of obtainability & transportation, and they're more easy to hide from family/roommates than a big gas tank.

Again, these are not "uncoordinated movements"

But they're done in unconscious state? How exactly is the fact of unconsciousness determined then? And how is the role of CO2 established for this behavior? I want to see an actual study.

simple explanation should easily divert it elsewhere.

A simple explanation may work or may not depending on hotel's security policies and vigilance of hotel staff you deal with. I guess, it's possible that they could offer a special storage room for your equipment without allowing to bring it to the unit for your stay )

 

[Jadeith]

They're very easy to obtain and to transport, and their possession and storage provoke minimum suspicions in contrast to a nitrogen cylinder.

Let's be serious. A container is a container. If you say that pressurized gas tank would raise a suspicion then it will no matter if it's CO2, N2 or breathable air for diving. Not a single hotel receptionist will go "oh, it's just CO2 tank, everything is ok. oh it's N2 tank - omigod, danger, danger, call police". Fr at this point your advertisement of CO2 starts to sound as if you were selling it.

But they're done in unconscious state? How exactly is the fact of unconsciousness determined then?

a)person is unresponsive to verbal or visual commands
b)after successful rescue, person reports "lights out" and does not remember what happened between "lights out" and waking up after successful rescue

And how is the role of CO2 established for this behavior? I want to see an actual study.

Already posted you starting point for searches about drowning. Here you got more how CO2 stress response is activated

Carbon dioxide and anxiety: Cardiovascular effects of a single inhalation

It is argued that inhalations of carbon dioxide oxygen (CO2/O2) mixtures might be useful in the treatment of “fear of fear”. Since it has been reporte…

www.sciencedirect.com

But please, if you are sincerely interested in the topic, try search engines of your choice. Do not expect me to do all the heavy lifting. And if you go for "i don't believe you, you need to convince me" approach, keep in mind that i'm not a god and your faith or lack of it is irrelevant from my viewpoint.

A simple explanation may work or may not depending on hotel's security policies and vigilance of hotel staff you deal with. I guess, it's possible that they could offer a special storage room for your equipment without allowing to bring it to the unit for your stay )

Same as above. If hotel staff is "allergic" to gas containers, they will have problem with ANY gas container, no exception for CO2 tanks.

 

[Intoxicated]

Not a single hotel receptionist will go "oh, it's just CO2 tank, everything is ok

CO2 tank would be overkill, unless you're planning a mass suicide. Mixing approximately 200 g of baking soda and 400 g of citric acid in water should quickly produce CO2 in amounts sufficient for killing a single person.

Fr at this point your advertisement of CO2 starts to sound as if you were selling it.

You're wrong, I'm selling citric acid and baking soda.

a)person is unresponsive to verbal or visual commands

Indeed, why else would a panicking and fighting person (who is likely submerged in water) be unresponsive to verbal and visual commands? ))

b)after successful rescue, person reports "lights out" and does not remember what happened between "lights out" and waking up after successful rescue

The ability to remember events could be lost before loss of consciousness. The absence of memories about actions doesn't look like a reliable criterion of doing them in unconscious state.

Here you got more how CO2 stress response is activated

Carbon dioxide and anxiety: Cardiovascular effects of a single inhalation

It is argued that inhalations of carbon dioxide oxygen (CO2/O2) mixtures might be useful in the treatment of “fear of fear”. Since it has been reporte…

www.sciencedirect.com

View attachment 162830

But please, if you are sincerely interested in the topic, try search engines of your choice. Do not expect me to do all the heavy lifting. And if you go for "i don't believe you, you need to convince me" approach, keep in mind that i'm not a god and your faith or lack of it is irrelevant from my viewpoint.

I didn't ask you for providing platitudes about CO2 effects on conscious humans, which everyone here is pretty well aware of. The concern being discussed here is hypercapnic response in unconscious people. Whatever effects are observed in conscious state, their relevance to unconscious state is questionable, especially when the stage of surgical anesthesia is achieved.

If someone attempts to remove your tooth without any analgesia or anesthesia, you probably will suffer (and probably a lot). But if you breathe nitrogen with ≤5% oxygen for 1.5 - 2 minutes, your sensitivity to pain from surgery operations will be completely lost. I doubt that CO2 would make any difference.

 

[Jadeith]

You're wrong, I'm selling citric acid and baking soda.

Hook me up. Already have N2 and SN but never hurts to be sure.

The absence of memories about actions doesn't look like a reliable criterion of doing them in unconscious state.

Then what does?

surgical anesthesia is achieved.

Surgical anesthesia has nothing to do with the subject, not sure why keeping bringing it up as no hypercapnic state occurs.

I didn't ask you for providing platitudes about CO2 effects on conscious humans

As you stated before, with CO2 poisoning, LOC occurs within seconds so not sure about their consciousness.

If someone attempts to remove your tooth without any analgesia or anesthesia, you probably will suffer (and probably a lot). But if you breathe nitrogen with ≤5% oxygen for 1.5 - 2 minutes, your sensitivity to pain from surgery operations will be completely lost. I doubt that CO2 would make any difference.

Again, you mixing 2 things - excess of CO2 which is fatal but also unpleasant to experience and use of N2O in anesthesia which is not inert gas. During anesthesia you are not exposed to excessive levels of CO2 so no fighting response whatsoever is to be expected. Now - if you want, for whatever reason mix those two, you might succeed as N2O is strong relaxant and might block CO2 stress response. Might. But if you already have N2O then why risking triggering stress response by introducing CO2 to the mix? Just provide enough N2O to safely any residual CO2 from your system and you are set and anesthetic effect is a plus. Not sure what you want to prove here.

 

[Intoxicated]

Then what does?

IDK, but I guess that detection of unconsciousness in an actively fighting drowning victim who shows seemingly coordinated movements would be complicated and difficult to carry out by the rescuer. The unconsciousness must somehow be distinguished from an altered state of mind (which is a very probable case under such conditions), and the rescuer is too busy with moving the victim's body out of water in the first place, leaving no realistic possibilities for precise assessment of the level of self-awareness in the rescued person.

Surgical anesthesia has nothing to do with the subject, not sure why keeping bringing it up as no hypercapnic state occurs.

Excess of CO2 may (and likely will) occur in an unventilated setup, which is the only option in case of having a small amount of N2O. This is directly related to the OP's situation.

As you stated before, with CO2 poisoning, LOC occurs within seconds so not sure about their consciousness.

Again, you mixing 2 things - excess of CO2 which is fatal but also unpleasant to experience and use of N2O in anesthesia which is not inert gas.

The discussion about CO2 poisoning appeared from commenting your dubious statements suggesting that this gas wouldn't work (for purposes of CTB) or would work just like simple asphyxiants, etc. It's not advised to be used together with N2O here.

 

[Jadeith]

IDK, but I guess that detection of unconsciousness in an actively fighting drowning victim who shows seemingly coordinated movements would be complicated and difficult to carry out by the rescuer. The unconsciousness must somehow be distinguished from an altered state of mind (which is a very probable case under such conditions), and the rescuer is too busy with moving the victim's body out of water in the first place, leaving no realistic possibilities for precise assessment of the level of self-awareness in the rescued person.

So we're arguing semantics now. Not gonna go this way unless you got clear definition of this state. Then we can discuss this path further. As of now, life guards statements and training manuals are enough for me to assume that panic response is present after person loses consciousness.

Excess of CO2 may (and likely will) occur in an unventilated setup, which is the only option in case of having a small amount of N2O. This is directly related to the OP's situation.

Again, surgical anesthesia (and lack of reports of triggered CO2 threat response) has nothing to do with OP's setup, except gas type so no need bringing it up.
And yes, CO2 buildup in unventilated setup will occur as i mentioned and warned OP about it in second post of this thread. There's a chance that sedative effects of N2O will kick in before CO2 manages to trigger stress response but still, there's potential point of failure.

The discussion about CO2 poisoning appeared from commenting your dubious statements suggesting that this gas wouldn't work (for purposes of CTB) or would work just like simple asphyxiants, etc.

Which i just post later corrected that by "not working as simple asphyxiant" i meant that it has potential to be highly unpleasant for a period of time depending on concentrations of CO2 available, not that it will not kill the subject.

 

[Intoxicated]

Again, surgical anesthesia (and lack of reports of triggered CO2 threat response) has nothing to do with OP's setup

The stage of surgical anesthesia (as a condition characterized by deep unconsciousness and limited preserved reflexes) is exactly what the OP would go through, should he use such a setup.

except gas type so no need bringing it up.

Oh, really? We have two books that offer detailed description of the effects from nitrous oxide when it's administered in ways that resemble the OP's method, and now you say that we should just ignore that information as if it were irrelevant?

 

[Jadeith]

The stage of surgical anesthesia (as a condition characterized by deep unconsciousness and limited preserved reflexes) is exactly what the OP would go through, should he use such a setup.

Provided CO2 buildup that is not present during normal surgical procedures doesn't get him first.

Oh, really? We have two books that offer detailed description of the effects from nitrous oxide when it's administered in ways that resemble the OP's method, and now you say that we should just ignore that information as if it were irrelevant?

No, that's not what i wrote, read that paragraph again.

 

[Intoxicated]

Provided CO2 buildup that is not present during normal surgical procedures

Well, close systems for ether administration were mentioned in this book. The concerns expressed there regarding such systems are related to anoxemia rather than hypercapnia, and CO2 is mentioned as a useful agent that can stimulate respiration. The typical time of the induction stage (before LOC) for ether is much longer than the period of N2O administration required for achieving surgical anesthesia. So maybe CO2 is not so scary, huh?

Besides, the influence of CO2 buildup within a short-term period of 2 - 3 minutes may be assessed via simple experiments with a bag that everyone here can reproduce. As I have such experiments done on my side already, I tend to think that fearmongering about evil CO2 is rather unwarranted - not only in case of using N2O, but in case of asphyxiation with plain inert gases like nitrogen too.

No, that's not what i wrote, read that paragraph again.

That was a rhetorical question, it doesn't really matter what though you put in that paragraph, since we (me and OP) won't get any valuable info from that anyway. I think, it's time to end this stupid conversation.

 

[Jadeith]

As I have such experiments done on my side already, I tend to think that fearmongering about evil CO2 is rather unwarranted

Well, CO2 influence tests preformed by and for divers show that CO2 reaction varies from person to person so while i believe you did not get much of a reaction from your body, i wouldn't go as far as to describe cautious approach to the subject as unwarranted

it doesn't really matter what though you put in that paragraph, since we (me and OP) won't get any valuable info from that anyway

Ooooh, now it's "me and OP". I wouldn't be so hasty to judge someone else's abilities to comprehend written information.

But of course, you are free to end this exchange at any given moment. regardless if you feel it's stupid or not.

EDIT:

The concerns expressed there regarding such systems are related to anoxemia rather than hypercapnia

I wonder then how it is possible that most popular asphyxiant methods promoted here are also considered most peaceful and painless. Exit bag (oxygen free environment), SN, carbon monoxide - all of those create strong anoxemia inducing enfironment, either by removing the oxygen form atmosphere or by disabling haemoglobin. Also, many industrial accidents with inert gases or other oxygen deprived atmosphere beg the question why victims didn't run from such dangerous places if lack of oxygen is considered to be a problem..