Who here is a hard determinist like me?

[paredler]

I don't want to feel alone

 

[Innereye]

You are not, my friend. Huge Robert sapolsky fan here.

 

[paredler]

Huge Robert sapolsky fan here.

So am I, so we can be friends.

 

[bleeding_heart_show]

Three is a crowd! I am glad to see that I am not the only one here that believes in this. Do you find that it changes the way you interact with others?

 

[KillingPain267]

I am not sure yet, but I am starting to become one more and more.

 

[paredler]

Three is a crowd! I am glad to see that I am not the only one here that believes in this. Do you find that it changes the way you interact with others?

Ummmmm not exactly lol, I mean, it's easier for me to explain my empathy towards people who seem to make wrong choices, but when I introduce the idea to other people, everyone calls me weak and lazy and dismisses this idea as stupid, People can't divorce from judgment to marry empathy.

 

[Sunü (素女)]

I'm a nutcase that believes in it too.

You are not, my friend. Huge Robert sapolsky fan here.

I've had my own thoughts about how determinism would work for me, and I've only recently found Robert Sapolsky out through this video/conversation. I found his theory aligns well with how I've thought about it like the complexity and unpredictability of determinism and the consequences of it with guilt and responsibility.

Do you find that it changes the way you interact with others?

Actually, in a similar vein, I've been thinking of how it could work with how a person sees himself and their past actions. For example, an addict admonishing themself for relapsing, or an abuser that can't forgive themself for their past. When looked through a deterministic outlook, their responsibility can disappear and its associated emotions can too. The addict learns that it's just their brain going through its process and not a failure of will, or the abuser learns that what they've done is just what results from a myriad of factors that they should've addressed and have confronted; and in both cases, they both learn to forgive and better themselves.

I've had this passing thought that this hard determinism can be useful for like people in this site. Although, I'm just unsure how it'll be received by people and how they'll choose to interpret it. An uninformed interpretation could easily twist the two scenarios above such as: the addict is doomed to never recover because they don't have free will, or the abuser is horrified that what they've done is inherent to their nature/character and never forgives themselves. I think there's a degree of nuance to know about determinism before it can show its merits, while the risks associated with a bad reading could be disastrous, so I'm a bit hesitant to spread it especially considering my limited knowledge on it.

 

[Innereye]

I'm a nutcase that believes in it too.

I've had my own thoughts about how determinism would work for me, and I've only recently found Robert Sapolsky out through this video/conversation. I found his theory aligns well with how I've thought about it like the complexity and unpredictability of determinism and the consequences of it with guilt and responsibility.


Actually, in a similar vein, I've been thinking of how it could work with how a person sees himself and their past actions. For example, an addict admonishing themself for relapsing, or an abuser that can't forgive themself for their past. When looked through a deterministic outlook, their responsibility can disappear and its associated emotions can too. The addict learns that it's just their brain going through its process and not a failure of will, or the abuser learns that what they've done is just what results from a myriad of factors that they should've addressed and have confronted; and in both cases, they both learn to forgive and better themselves.

I've had this passing thought that this hard determinism can be useful for like people in this site. Although, I'm just unsure how it'll be received by people and how they'll choose to interpret it. An uninformed interpretation could easily twist the two scenarios above such as: the addict is doomed to never recover because they don't have free will, or the abuser is horrified that what they've done is inherent to their nature/character and never forgives themselves. I think there's a degree of nuance to know about determinism before it can show its merits, while the risks associated with a bad reading could be disastrous, so I'm a bit hesitant to spread it especially considering my limited knowledge on it.

I study it near religiously. It's more or less saved my life, gives me structure, removing arbitrary concepts like morality. Viewing reality instead from a detached analytical perspective.

 

[Sunü (素女)]

I study it near religiously. It's more or less saved my life, gives me structure, removing arbitrary concepts like morality. Viewing reality instead from a detached analytical perspective.

That's great to hear that determinism has facilitated you to do so. To me, it has helped me accept past failings and nudged me into a more cautious way of planning/thinking.

Also, do you happen to know any books or media that discuss the implications of determinism in other fields? So far, I only know that Sapolsky's recent book has a section that imagines a society that wholly believes in determinism (which I haven't read yet). I'm quite curious what I'll find when I start looking at laws or theories with a determinist's lense.

 

[Innereye]

That's great to hear that determinism has facilitated you to do so. To me, it has helped me accept past failings and nudged me into a more cautious way of planning/thinking.

Also, do you happen to know any books or media that discuss the implications of determinism in other fields? So far, I only know that Sapolsky's recent book has a section that imagines a society that wholly believes in determinism (which I haven't read yet). I'm quite curious what I'll find when I start looking at laws or theories with a determinist's lense.

Sent DM

 

[BoulderSoWhat]

Eh, I wouldn't identify as anything particularly. The best tools we've got are the scientific methods and discoveries we've made so far. I exist randomly at a specific space and time, with only access to information I can find and understand up until this point of human existence. Each moment that passes, humanity is constantly breaking the world record for "longest time EVER that humans have been around doing human shit."

If I was born some time ealier, humans would still be wondering if everything is ultimately made of water, fire, the Apeiron, or something else (pre-socratics had to start somewhere lol).

Anyway, it is whatever it is, and either way, I don't really have control over what it is. Either:

- I have free will and I know I have free will.
- I have free will and don't know if I do or don't have free will.
- I have free will and think I don't have free will.
- I don't have free will and I know I don't have free will.
- I don't have free will and don't know if do or don't have free will.
- I don't have free will and think I do have free will.

(List additional scenarios if they can actually be succinctly described.)

So if really I don't control what actually is the case, and what I think doesn't actually change the reality, then it's up to me to average out how I want to live if I'm going to be alive given all possibilities, whether I've thought of them or not. Surely, in all cases, whether I actually do or don't have free will, and regardless of what I think, I should probably stop at stop signs when driving, I should probably drink water, and I should probably try to speak and type at least somewhat coherently.

All of these choices will ultimately be mine to make, they will be processed and acted upon or not by my bio-machinery, regardless of whether I'm free or not. Whether truly freely made or not, we still make choices, we're still alive or not.

 

[mars_b4rz]

As someone who's spent a lot of time in graphics programming creating 3D worlds it seems like I've adopted this view naturally. I don't seem to understand how something can't be predicted. If you know all the rules that govern a game, why wouldn't you be able to make predictions about the future inside that game assuming that you are external? It's my belief that there are a finite set of laws upon which govern a finite set of permutations of constituent particles in the universe and if that's the case, I can't see how an external observer (something beyond the laws of our universe) wouldn't be able to make accurate deterministic predictions about the future.