Discussion Why don't more animals kill themselves?

[Forever Sleep]

I'm sure this has been discussed before but I can't seem to get the search bar to work. Sorry.

Plus- Sorry I'm posting so much at the moment! It's a major distraction technique from what I should be doing.

So- if I was a wild animal, I'm sure I would be useless at surviving in nature- especially seeing as mankind has covered most of it in concrete and plastic. I'm SURE I would want to kill myself...

Yet- there doesn't seem to be much mass evidence of animals doing so. (That whole Lemming thing is a Disney myth.) There are definitely exceptions- some animals will sacrifice their own lives to save their offspring or, their colony. Some animals in captivity have been known to take their own lives. Pets are known to grieve the loss of their owners and stop eating. (Although there is supposedly the argument that the animal simply won't accept food from another person.)

Still- why doesn't it happen more? They must have much harder lives than us. Maybe their survival instinct is stronger.

Maybe higher 'intelligence' or self awareness is required to overcome instinct. Perhaps that is the case because there have been studies of dolphins that have willfully drowned themselves. Even one of the dolphins that played 'Flipper' apparently! Did you know that?!! I guess it's not something they would advertise.

There is one member here that posts that this forum is evolution at work (I can't remember their name- sorry.) Maybe this is what they meant though? If all species evolve to the point where they can see how deeply problematic life on this planet is (and let's face it- it may just keep getting worse.) Plus- we all overcome our instincts to reproduce, maybe we can all die out all together!

 

[MidnightDream]

Sir (or madam, i don't actually know), get back to your job search right now

 

[Ginnn]

Because they can't think rationally

 

[Forever Sleep]

Sir (or madam, i don't actually know), get back to your job search right now

Lol- I'm a madam and I haven't even started!

 

[makethepainstop]

I'm sure this has been discussed before but I can't seem to get the search bar to work. Sorry.

Plus- Sorry I'm posting so much at the moment! It's a major distraction technique from what I should be doing.

So- if I was a wild animal, I'm sure I would be useless at surviving in nature- especially seeing as mankind has covered most of it in concrete and plastic. I'm SURE I would want to kill myself...

Yet- there doesn't seem to be much mass evidence of animals doing so. (That whole Lemming thing is a Disney myth.) There are definitely exceptions- some animals will sacrifice their own lives to save their offspring or, their colony. Some animals in captivity have been known to take their own lives. Pets are known to grieve the loss of their owners and stop eating. (Although there is supposedly the argument that the animal simply won't accept food from another person.)

Still- why doesn't it happen more? They must have much harder lives than us. Maybe their survival instinct is stronger.

Maybe higher 'intelligence' or self awareness is required to overcome instinct. Perhaps that is the case because there have been studies of dolphins that have willfully drowned themselves. Even one of the dolphins that played 'Flipper' apparently! Did you know that?!! I guess it's not something they would advertise.

There is one member here that posts that this forum is evolution at work (I can't remember their name- sorry.) Maybe this is what they meant though? If all species evolve to the point where they can see how deeply problematic life on this planet is (and let's face it- it may just keep getting worse.) Plus- we all overcome our instincts to reproduce, maybe we can all die out all together!

Animals don't have car payments, rent, grocery bills, jobs they hate, lives they hate...........and animals are not intelligent enough to know they got a raw deal, and are trying to play a game thats been rigged against them. With only one chance in a million for success.

 

[MidnightDream]

Lol- I'm a madam and I haven't even started!

Lmao I like your energy. I'd hire you

 

[Forever Sleep]

Because they can't think rationally

Do you think? I think many animals show signs of intelligence. Plus, I'm not sure you need much intelligence to feel depressed. I think suicide can equally be triggered by emotions. I'm sure animals experience emotions. Still- I guess you're right- maybe they can't rationally overcome the instinct to survive.

 

[FuneralCry]

Probably because they lack the awareness to be able to do such a thing, animals just try to do what they can to survive and that is what their existence is centred around. It's absolutely horrifying to think of the extreme amounts of torture that is constantly being experienced by animals, particularly by those in the wild, in order to survive, like how animals violently kill and harm those that they see as prey. I think that absolutely loads of animals would kill themselves if they had awareness of the fact that their lives are just a struggle to survive in a cycle of meaningless and insignificant suffering that exists all for no reason.

 

[Jarni]

Animals are not aware of the death, normally. The don't know that they will die, at least not at the manner to have a real consciousness about it
(yes, elephants etc have griefs etc, but not sure that they are able to really understand that they will die).

And animals have this "will to live" severly encoded in them...

Shopenhauer wrote about it a bit...


For me, animals are too much like robots, cats are programmed to be just cats and dogs just to make the things all dogs doo.... a cat can't behave like a dog...
Yes, they have sort of "feelings", can feel pain etc, but still, the software before everything....

And like a philosopher said : if there was no death there would be no philosophy...

 

[releasespieces]

Stress-related self-destructive behavior[edit]

Many animals that appear to be depressed or grieving begin to exhibit self-destructive behavior that sometimes ends in death, but this is not considered suicide, as the achieving of death was not necessarily the purpose or objective of the behaviors.[13]​

In 1845, the Illustrated London News reported that a Newfoundland dog had been acting less lively over a period of days before being seen "to throw himself in the water and endeavor to sink by preserving perfect stillness of the legs and feet".[14]​ Every time he was rescued he attempted to do this again before he finally held his head underwater until death.[14]​ The newspaper ran stories on other dogs, as well as ducks, that had also allegedly drowned themselves, although the veracity or certainty of these cases is disputed.[15]​In one of the alleged cases, one duck did so after the death of its mate.[16]​

Another example of an alleged case of animal suicide is the case of the dolphin which most often portrayed Flipper on the 1960s television show Flipper. According to trainer Ric O'Barry in the film The Cove, Kathy, the dolphin, suffocated herself before him. The veracity or accuracy of this case has not been established in rigorous, scientific or objective terms.[17]​[18]​ Similarly, a male bottle nose dolphin named Peter who was a subject in a series of experiments led by John C. Lilly, a neuroscientist, and Margaret Howe Lovatt, volunteer naturalist, apparently stopped breathing after it was moved to a lab in a different location and separated from Lovatt.[19]​[20]​

Some dogs will refuse food from some unknown person after the death of their owner, a behavior that might lead to disease or death in severe cases.[16]​ The death of mourning animals is likely to be caused by depression leading to starvation or drowning, instead of the intent of suicide.

Aristotle described an unverified story involving one of the King of Scythia's horses dying by suicide after having been made to unwittingly impregnate its mother in his History of Animals.[21]​

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

I guess they're good at dialing noombers. Also, other animals may be pro-lifers who stop their attempts.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I'm sure this has been discussed before but I can't seem to get the search bar to work. Sorry.

Plus- Sorry I'm posting so much at the moment! It's a major distraction technique from what I should be doing.

So- if I was a wild animal, I'm sure I would be useless at surviving in nature- especially seeing as mankind has covered most of it in concrete and plastic. I'm SURE I would want to kill myself...

Yet- there doesn't seem to be much mass evidence of animals doing so. (That whole Lemming thing is a Disney myth.) There are definitely exceptions- some animals will sacrifice their own lives to save their offspring or, their colony. Some animals in captivity have been known to take their own lives. Pets are known to grieve the loss of their owners and stop eating. (Although there is supposedly the argument that the animal simply won't accept food from another person.)

Still- why doesn't it happen more? They must have much harder lives than us. Maybe their survival instinct is stronger.

Maybe higher 'intelligence' or self awareness is required to overcome instinct. Perhaps that is the case because there have been studies of dolphins that have willfully drowned themselves. Even one of the dolphins that played 'Flipper' apparently! Did you know that?!! I guess it's not something they would advertise.

There is one member here that posts that this forum is evolution at work (I can't remember their name- sorry.) Maybe this is what they meant though? If all species evolve to the point where they can see how deeply problematic life on this planet is (and let's face it- it may just keep getting worse.) Plus- we all overcome our instincts to reproduce, maybe we can all die out all together!

Do animals know that they and all animals will die ? I don't think so. Are most humans aware that they will die ? Do most humans act like they and all humans will die ? or how Death will happen soon because how fast time passes ( Last 5 years, 2022 passed by fast didn't it? ).

This that all humans and animals will die is the most fundamental most absolute truth of all. How often is this talked about?

 

[WhiteRabbit]

I don't think animals have the same understanding of their own mortality as human do. They can show suicidal behaviors caused by grief or stress, but they aren't capable of thinking about the future, their place in it, and then planning to end their lives like a human would.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Do animals know that they and all animals will die ? Idon't think so. Are most humans aware that they will die ? Do most humans act like they and all humans will die ? or how Death will happen soon because how fast time passes ( Last 5 years, 2022 passed by fast didn't it? ).

This that all humans and animals will die is the most fundamental most absolute truth of all. How often is this talked about?

Yes, I'd say- even though many don't like to think about it or discuss it- most humans at least know they will die. Of course, how young they are when they find out depends.

Still- I have to agree with most posts here. Maybe animals don't realise. Some seem more aware, curious and even mournful of death (Monkeys, Orcas, Elephants, Crows) but maybe they don't realise it will happen to them- or even- that they could do it themselves. Seems kind of impossible in a way- that you could come across a dead version of your species and not worry it might happen to you. Still- they obviously do it all the time when they see others get eaten.

 

[Jarni]

Seems kind of impossible in a way- that you could come across a dead version of your species and not worry it might happen to you.

Seeing disabled people, all people still think "that could not happen to me".….….
:-(

 

[Someone123]

There may be a lot more anmals that kill themselves than we realize. They may have grief over lost loved ones or over drought or lots of other things. For most animals if they want to kill themselves all they have to do is to slow down a little and let themselves be eaten by a predator- they hvae an easy way out.

 

[FallFadesIntoWinter]

I'm definitely not an animal biologist or zoologist but if you look at certain animal behaviour, it does mimic human behaviour for sure.

A lot of animals will euthanize weak or deformed offspring. Whether or not it's because the care for them will slow down the herd or make them more vulnerable to attack or simply just to put it out of its misery (because it's the right thing to do or the parent/leader can't stand to see it suffer), we don't know why animals choose to do this.

Also, look at the number of animals that simply go off on their own to die. Maybe they're already terminal, maybe not, but the fact is, lots of animals will separate themselves from a herd or even humans to go off and die on their own. Is it suicide or just out of respect, I also don't know this.

Lots of marine wildlife will beach themselves as well (whales, dolphins, larger creatures in general), maybe it's also suicide, who knows?

I don't think suicide is genetically a human trait, I believe animals also have the ability to know when to call it quits too. I think we would vastly underestimate the intelligence of animals if we didn't think they felt sorrow, despair, sadness, grief and even suicidal ideations too.

When my cat was really sick, in his final weeks, I let him outside one night because he was pawing around the door that led to the backyard. After I let him out, about 5 minutes later, I suddenly thought about him just leaving and going off to die on his own, since there were a lot of areas to do it (small pockets of forests). I called him, but he never came back, and I couldn't sleep at all. I went looking for him, but I couldn't find him. Then, after 2 am, I heard his faint meow, and I jumped up out of bed and he came back. Honestly, I thought I had lost him for good and knowing him, he was the type of cat that would've spared me the event of watching him pass away too. He passed away a few weeks later one morning, gently, with me holding him. I don't know if he ever thought about wandering off and ending it for himself (like starving to death or getting attacked by another animal) but I'm very honoured he let me take care of him until the end.

 

[releasespieces]

Well they're awfully limited as far as methods go aren't they. They can starve themselves, which they do… mutilate themselves, which has been observed, but they aren't going to order up some SN or throw a rope over a tree limb anytime soon are they.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Well they're awfully limited as far as methods go aren't they. They can starve themselves, which they do… mutilate themselves, which has been observed, but they aren't going to order up some SN or throw a rope over a tree limb anytime soon are they.

Yeah- true. Did think of this. Guess jumping is still an option... Even better if you can fly. Depends on the animal I suppose. Wander up to a tiger...

 

[myownpetvirus]

Especially the ones trapped in zoos
It's really sad to think about how much suffering there is universally across all species

 

[LifeCanBeCruel]

I hate when people say life is inherently good. Just take a look at the food chain.

 

[releasespieces]

Life is pure suffering. All we can do is try to mitigate that suffering. Core of buddhist teachings.

 

[wesv]

I mean we can't know, can we? But I would think that it does happen, that animals do commit suicide, just that it would be statistically less likely to occur, same as humans. I would like to think suicidality falls within a bell curve, just like humans. Symptoms of depression and anhedonia, sadness, apathy, and psychiatric illnesses, I would like to think that even animals experience these emotions and psychiatric disorders. Why wouldn't animals act on it. We are all animals at the end of the day.

 

[releasespieces]

Seeing disabled people, all people still think "that could not happen to me".….….
:-(

For sure, all of the messed up shit in the world means nothing to people unless it ends up affecting them personally. That's why I'm a cynical misanthrope, people are innately selfish no matter what they say.

 

[Jarni]

For sure, all of the messed up shit in the world means nothing to people unless it ends up affecting them personally. That's why I'm a cynical misanthrope, people are innately selfish no matter what they say.

It's understandable to be misanthropic in this world... You get there sooner or later, to such and such an extent. On the one hand, I tell myself that everyone does what they can with what they have. And on the other hand, human nature needs to be fought in an express way to become someone better. Not many people do this difficult work on themselves... And it's a process often...

 

[Someone123]

It's understandable to be misanthropic in this world... You get there sooner or later, to such and such an extent. On the one hand, I tell myself that everyone does what they can with what they have. And on the other hand, human nature needs to be fought in an express way to become someone better. Not many people do this difficult work on themselves... And it's a process often...

There are many people who dlo their best and try to treat others well, but there are quite a few people who are deliberately mean, manipulative, and when it comes right down to it, just evil.

 

[releasespieces]

There are many people who dlo their best and try to treat others well, but there are quite a few people who are deliberately mean, manipulative, and when it comes right down to it, just evil.

Well, the thing is… people treat other people well with the intent that they will be rewarded somehow. Maybe other people will treat me well if I treat them well, the old adage "treat others the way you want to be treated", but in the end there are still selfish motives involved. Maybe people treat others well for the euphoria of being altruistic, endorphins are released when we experience pleasure, and when our actions are socially acceptable we feel secure that we are accepted into the herd. Everyone does something with the intent of "what's in it for me". Its human nature to take care of ourselves first, it's ok, but I think it's important to realize this as we navigate the world.

Why am I even writing this in the thread? I get some pleasure from online socialization because outside of this my life is very empty with no friends. I'm selfishly typing away for some sense of validation based on my understanding of the world, to find some sort of security which makes me feel better about how absurd and pointless life really is. I'm typing this for myself, if others agree with me then I get gratification from it because then I'm accepted, I belong somewhere, I feel a false sense of security and my mind doesn't know the difference.

We are always selfishly seeking to have our needs met, it doesn't matter how charitable someone is, it's impossible to escape.

 

[wait.what]

I guess they're good at dialing noombers. Also, other animals may be pro-lifers who stop their attempts.

Good point. Also, most animals have very poor internet access. Way out in the woods you're lucky if you even get one bar on your phone, and underwater it's even worse.

If animals can't access the internet, they'll never visit this site, and as everyone knows, SaSu is the world's only repository of information about suicide. In fact, if only living things could be kept from hearing about SaSu, then they would all be immortal.

 

[Musketeer]

Animals operate on base instincts and carnal desires like food and sex. Most are unable to feel the full spectrum of emotions humans can feel, dogs only feel basic emotions for example. They are also unable to contemplate their own existence like sentient species can. (saying sentient species because I'm a firm believer in sentient alien life)

 

[Krieger]

I find the fact that there has been cases of dolphins supposedly committing suicide very interesting. Dolphins are some of the smartest animals and even have sex for pleasure so it isn't farfetched to say that they feel depressed in similar ways to humans. I wonder if intelligent great apes like Bonobos or Orangutans can also feel depressed like humans do and contemplate/attempt suicide.

I just found something interesting from a quick google search: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/61594639

"MONKEY'S SUICIDE. By Hanging. LONDON. July 14 . Sightseers at Upton Zoo. Chester, witnessed an apparently deliberate suicide. A monkey first gnawed six feet of rope hanging in a cage, tied the end to a bough of a tree, making a noose in the other. He then in serted his head, then with great de liberation, pulled the slipknot, climbed the tree and jumped to death, which was instantaneous. The keeper of the Zoo at the in quest, giving a verdict of suicide with no evidence of state of mind. He added, in his lifetime experience he had not known an animal to deliberately commit suicide. He was guarding the monkeys which might emulate their companion, thinking they had discovered a new game. The reason for the suicide is unknown, he may have had domestic difficulties, or may have been shocking the spectators, who were expecting amusement, and witnessed a tragedy. "

Definitely interesting if not bullshit (article's from 1932)