Will there ever be peace in the Middle East?

[noname223]

And how could we achieve it? Yeah this is a question which is extremely hard to answer even for people with a PhD in this field. Though I am very optimistic that we in this forum have enough competent people to solve this problem. Though someone has to call Biden in order to implement it.

Trump and his staff wanted to solve it with money. Giving Palestine huge amounts of money. We all know how that ended. They were pretty angry and said they are not venal/bribable concerning this issue.

I honestly don't have any good answers. And I am not an expert on that question. In my country there are claims that some media outlets are due to our history more in favor of Israel. Though I think there are many average German citizens who sympathize with Palestine.

I just watched the news and saw once again violence. It seems to be quite hopeless. Maybe it is a good example how being religious can cause a lot of problems. Though critics would say this conflict is only on the surface about religion. It is rather about power.

I don't have more sophisticated thoughts on it. What do you think about it?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I know very little about it but the best options I can offer are to either get all their leaders incredibly high on psychedelics that will force them to see the bigger picture and let go of all their anger towards all each other…or exterminate everyone in that region to achieve a more morbid kind of peace. Neither of these sounds very realistic nor are they guaranteed to work.

 

[Foresight]

Climate change will hit hard in that region before any progress in that department.

 

[whatevs]

When Israel wipes out the region with nukes and replaces the former population with the Chosen People. That'll do it.

 

[mimi2161]

Maybe if outsider powers stopped destabilising the area they would have an opportunity to work through civil conflict and build theirselves back up again.

 

[DarkRange55]

When Israel wipes out the region with nukes and replaces the former population with the Chosen People. That'll do it.

The only reason the middle has not formed some grand coalition to fuck up Israel is because of nuclear weapons.

Robert McNamerma one of the father's of the Vietnam War, former Secretary of Defense and President of the World Bank said, there are certain problems on the planet that are never gonna be solved. We have had at that time two holy wars and you can argue that this is just an extension of the holy war, whats happening. We didn't work it out in 700 AD and we didn't work it out in 1100 AD and he said we're not gonna work it out this time. It's a bridge too far.

Anything to help push us towards some kind of solution. The most likely solution is gonna be the two state solution, forming a true Palestinian state and any sign that we're really gonna push Israel towards that is a positive one. Whether or not this trend will continue is something else all together. But I'm always in favor of that.

 

[Pessimist]

First of all you need to get rid of the Islamofascist regime of Hamas. The Palestinian population must become more secular.

Then you need to let Fatah control and govern Gaza.







Then you need to get rid of Benjamin Netanyahu and replace him with Yair Lapid. Yair Lapid is the leader of Yesh Atid, a centrist, secular Jewish party, the second-largest party in the Knesset and the largest party in the Israeli opposition. Yesh Atid supports a two-state solution.








And then peace becomes possible.

 

[DarkRange55]

I think if we had a one world government (it would depend on how it was setup and who is running it), it would make it a lot easier to deal with wars and genocide and stuff like that if you had some sort of federal mandate to handle stuff like that. We could control psychopathic groups. But I don't really see it happening, I don't see Israel and Iran being in the same affiliation of nations or country. And as long as countries hold unequal power through nuclear weapons and what not you couldn't have an equally ran, fair system.

I think realistically the West's best bet for now is to chip away through propaganda, education and media. American culture is a power influence globally (i.e., Hollywood, blue jeans, idealism, ect).

Just as an example: Afghanistan. While it is not technically part of the middle east (debatable between central and southern Asia) - Just like Vietnam, the war is essentially one of attrition. The US Army can hold ever major city it wants, but for every cave in the Afghan mountains it clears out there's ten more. As long as the country is poor and communities isolated from each other, the government will be unable to control the entire country and the Taliban will hold sway over many places and recruit. Afghanistan has been at war nonstop for 40 years. The last time Afghanistan was stable was under their last king, Zahir Shah. Since then, it's been coups, countercoups, Soviet invasions, civil war, American invasion, then high-level insurgency. There's no end in sight.
Don't forget the porous border with Pakistan that enables more militants to move resources without detection.
That or you could commit war crimes/crimes against humanity. Russia and China could try carpet bombing it as much as possible… didn't really work in Southeast Asia... But when al-Qaeda fled to the tunnel systems under the mountains Tora Bora, the JCOS floated the idea of nuking it 11 times because thats what it would take to guarantee it would have actually collapsed.
Genghis Khan's army massacred the inhabitants of the Khwarezmian Empire. But after Genghis Khan returned to Mongolia, there was a rebellion…

Then you have places like Iraq. It's a powder cage of ethnic divisions: the Kurds, sunni and shia. Saddam was able to hold it together under iron rule but the US cut out their army which caused a civil war.
The French and British drew national borders that also didn't really help insure a functioning future.

But you do have some places like Kuwait that were "colonized." The UAE was built by oil but now it's been diversifying. It will be interesting to see the future of the middle east when the oil either runs out or the world abandons petroleum.
Side note:
I believe Saudi Arabia has over 200 billion barrels of oil, supposedly. That is so much oil!
What's crazy too about Saudi Arabia is that it is typically incredibly easy to extract the oil - it isn't very deep down in the ground and it's easy to drill through the ground there. Therefore it's cheap to produce all that oil. That's very different than the Canadian oil sands, for instance, or deep water wells off the coast of Europe - those are all expensive places to drill. Oil prices have to be high to make it worthwhile to drill there but Saudi Arabia's oil is pretty much always easy to drill and with a nice profit margin for them!

The Old Cliché About Afghanistan That Won't Die - POLITICO

The National Interestnationalinterest.orgAfghanistan Has Been Invaded But Never Truly Conquered

 

[Dliena]

Zero chance. There's always going to be something that goes down in this messed up mother father earth no matter what happens but perhaps I'm a doomer
so who am I to know or judge. It's not the first time I was wrong nor will it be the last.

 

[sserafim]

Honestly, I don't think that there will ever be peace in the Middle East until and unless one side completely eliminates the other. I believe that the only way to achieve peace is if one side voluntarily cedes and relocates elsewhere. They've demonstrated repeatedly that the two-state solution doesn't work, and it probably never will, as both parties believe that they have the sole claim and right to the land/territory.

 

[DarkRange55]

 

[Pessimist]

Honestly, I don't think that there will ever be peace in the Middle East until and unless one side completely eliminates the other. I believe that the only way to achieve peace is if one side voluntarily cedes and relocates elsewhere. They've demonstrated repeatedly that the two-state solution doesn't work, and it probably never will, as both parties believe that they have the sole claim and right to the land/territory.

The problem is that the majority of anti-Zionists don't want a two-state solution. They want the entire territory to be Arab and/or Muslim, "from the river to the sea".

 

[Rapière]

The problem is that the majority of anti-Zionists don't want a two-state solution. They want the entire territory to be Arab and/or Muslim, "from the river to the sea".

Stop taking random shit from twitter as factual information. I just looked up the woman from the first tweet and it turns out she is a pro-trump attorney who defended some of the lunatics from the jan 6th insurrection in court. Are these the kinds of people you want to align yourself with?

 

[Pessimist]

Stop taking random shit from twitter as factual information. I just looked up the woman from the first tweet and it turns out she is a pro-trump attorney who defended some of the lunatics from the jan 6th insurrection in court. Are these the kinds of people you want to align yourself with?

I don't follow, support or know her; it's about the video. I personally suppor the Democratic Party; would it be better if I posted and submitted the video myself? On the same topic, many far-left anti-Zionists align themselves with far-right racial antisemites. For example:

Hasan Piker supports the Houthis:



Julius Malema (EFF leader) wants to arm Hamas:



Does it mean they are fully racially antisemitic and no longer left-wing?

 

[Rapière]

I don't follow, support or know her; it's about the video. I personally suppor the Democratic Party; would it be better if I posted and submitted the video myself? On the same topic, many far-left anti-Zionists align themselves with far-right racial antisemites. For example:

Hasan Piker supports the Houthis:



Julius Malema (EFF leader) wants to arm Hamas:



Does it mean they are fully racially antisemitic and no longer left-wing?

And how does that justify the ongoing mass-slaughter in Gaza? Help me connect the dots here.

Israel dropping bombs on civilians certainly won't stop the spread of antisemitism in the region.

Does it mean they are fully racially antisemitic and no longer left-wing?

Hasan is a clown, but not antisemitic. He also supports russia's invasion of ukraine and thinks taiwan belongs to china.

 

[Pessimist]

And how does that justify the ongoing mass-slaughter in Gaza? Help me connect the dots here.

As I've said before, I support a permanent ceasefire and it needs to come with the release of the kidnapped Israelis. In the future I would like Hamas to be replaced by Fatah, and Likud by Yesh Atid; making a two-state solution possible.

 

[SexyIncél]

In 1953, the US & UK overthrew Iran's secular parliamentary democracy, and installed the brutal Shah

The most powerful player in the mideast is on other side of the planet. Its goal is to control the oil supply, giving it leverage over everyone else. It props up Saudi dictators, genocidal maniac Israeli gov'ts, etc

For reasons like this, one main goal of US activists is to extract Uncle Sam's barbed dick. Another goal is to coordinate with solid radical groups in the Mideast (for example, Rojava, which had a radical democractic ecofeminist revolution)

 

[Pessimist]

In 1953, the US & UK overthrew Iran's secular parliamentary democracy, and installed the brutal Shah

The most powerful player in the mideast is on other side of the planet. Its goal is to control the oil supply, giving it leverage over everyone else. It props up Saudi dictators, genocidal maniac Israeli gov'ts, etc

For reasons like this, one main goal of US activists is to extract Uncle Sam's barbed dick. Another goal is to coordinate with solid radical groups in the Mideast (for example, Rojava, which had a radical democractic ecofeminist revolution)

Your approach is extremely anti-American. What was so "brutal" about the White Revolution? The Islamic Revolution happened because of Islamism, and nowadays Iran kills women for not bowing down to mandatory hijab policies. But you're still blaming America.

 

[SexyIncél]

Your approach is extremely anti-American. What was so "brutal" about the White Revolution? The Islamic Revolution happened because of Islamism, and nowadays Iran kills women for not bowing down to mandatory hijab policies. But you're still blaming America.

Your buzzwords reveal much about you. As Noam Chomsky points out:

"The concept "anti-American" is an interesting one. The counterpart is used only in totalitarian states or military dictatorships, something I wrote about many years ago (see my book Letters from Lexington). Thus, in the old Soviet Union, dissidents were condemned as "anti-Soviet." That's a natural usage among people with deeply rooted totalitarian instincts, which identify state policy with the society, the people, the culture.

"In contrast, people with even the slightest concept of democracy treat such notions with ridicule and contempt. Suppose someone in Italy who criticizes Italian state policy were condemned as "anti-Italian." It would be regarded as too ridiculous even to merit laughter. Maybe under Mussolini, but surely not otherwise.

"Actually the concept has earlier origins. It was used in the Bible by King Ahab, the epitome of evil, to condemn those who sought justice as "anti-Israel" ("ocher Yisrael," in the original Hebrew, roughly "hater of Israel," or "disturber of Israel"). His specific target was Elijah."

Anyway, just today I was talking with an Iranian friend, a woman who's against the regime. That's why I said US activists coordinate with solid Mideast radicals, who have similar principles. Like her, and radical democratic ecofeminists in Rojava. Because they have a nuanced idea of what's going on

 

[Pessimist]

Your buzzwords say a lot about you. As Noam Chomsky points out:

"The concept "anti-American" is an interesting one. The counterpart is used only in totalitarian states or military dictatorships, something I wrote about many years ago (see my book Letters from Lexington). Thus, in the old Soviet Union, dissidents were condemned as "anti-Soviet." That's a natural usage among people with deeply rooted totalitarian instincts, which identify state policy with the society, the people, the culture.

"In contrast, people with even the slightest concept of democracy treat such notions with ridicule and contempt. Suppose someone in Italy who criticizes Italian state policy were condemned as "anti-Italian." It would be regarded as too ridiculous even to merit laughter. Maybe under Mussolini, but surely not otherwise.

"Actually the concept has earlier origins. It was used in the Bible by King Ahab, the epitome of evil, to condemn those who sought justice as "anti-Israel" ("ocher Yisrael," in the original Hebrew, roughly "hater of Israel," or "disturber of Israel"). His specific target was Elijah."

Anyway, just today I was talking with an Iranian friend, a woman who's against the regime. That's why I said US activists coordinate with solid Mideast radicals, who have similar principles. Like her, and radical democratic ecofeminists in Rojava. Because they have a nuanced idea of what's going on

First of all, I didn't say that I'm against all types of authoritarianism. I support state atheism for example.

Secondly, you don't get to criticize the use of "buzzwords" after claiming that Israeli Jews are "genocidal maniacs".



Also, that's literally the definition of anti-Americanism or anti-American sentiment. Maybe you can look into it.

 

[SexyIncél]

First of all, I didn't say that I'm against all types of authoritarianism. I support state atheism for example.

Secondly, you don't get to criticize the use of "buzzwords" after claiming that Israeli Jews are "genocidal maniacs".

Ah gotcha. Thanks, explains why you're a supporter of brutal dictators like the Shah of Iran. Like I say in your helpful screenshot, you lack higher principles. He's your dictator

Anyway, to avoid agitating any dictator-supporting genocidal maniacs on sasu, cool — I'll ask a mod to reword my comment to follow Norman Finkelstein's lead. I'll double-check, but I recall he said Israelis are "mostly genocidal maniacs"

And it's true, I know great moral Israelis fighting under difficult conditions to stop the Gazan death camp

 

[Pessimist]

Ah gotcha. Thanks, explains why you're a supporter of brutal dictators like the Shah of Iran. Like I say in your helpful screenshot, you lack higher principles. He's your dictator

Anyway, to avoid agitating any dictator-supporting genocidal maniacs on sasu, cool — I'll ask a mod to reword my comment to follow Norman Finkelstein's lead. I'll double-check, but I recall he said Israelis are "mostly genocidal maniacs"

I don't know enough about the Shah of Iran to support or oppose him, but it can't be much worse than Iran's current Islamofascist, theocratic and totalitarian regime.

 

[SexyIncél]

I don't know enough about the Shah of Iran to support or oppose him

Yep, facts don't matter to those who aggressively cheerlead overthrowing democracies & installing dictators. Hence calling enemies "anti-American", like King Ahab & Soviet commissars

Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose China somehow overthrew the US gov't & installed a puppet dictator. (I know, just bear with me.) Well, we can easily imagine Christian militias finally overthrowing it & installing an oppressive religious government. It's called "blowback"

BTW I'm pro-American — the people, not the government. A militant totalitarian like you could never understand

Anyway, I'm done responding to the aggressively ignorant dictator 'n genocide supporter. Back on topic, Chomsky has useful analysis:

"Well, what's the crucial fact about Iran, which we should begin with, is that for the past 60 years, not a day has passed in which the U.S. has not been torturing Iranians. That's 60 years, right now. Began with a military coup, which overthrew the parliamentary regime in 1953, installed the Shah, a brutal dictator. Amnesty International described him as one of the worst, most extreme torturers in the world, year after year. When he was overthrown in 1979, the U.S. almost immediately turned to supporting Saddam Hussein in an assault against Iran, which killed hundreds of thousands of Iranians, used extensive use of chemical weapons. Of course, at the same time, Saddam attacked his Kurdish population with horrible chemical weapons attacks. The U.S. supported all of that."

 

[Pessimist]

Yep, facts don't matter to those who aggressively cheerlead overthrowing democracies & installing dictators. Hence calling enemies "anti-American", like King Ahab & Soviet commissars

Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose China somehow overthrew the US gov't & installed a puppet dictator. (I know, just bear with me.) Well, we can easily imagine Christian militias finally overthrowing it & installing a totalitarian government. It's called "blowback"

BTW I'm pro-American — the people, not the government. A militant totalitarian like you could never understand

Anyway, I'm done responding to the aggressively ignorant dictator 'n genocide supporter. Back on topic, Chomsky has useful analysis:

You're using a lot of insults in order to dehumanize me. It's funny you call me a "militant totalitarian" while supporting Iran. And no, I'm not saying that America is always right. But if you still complain about a Shah from decades ago instead of complaining about the current Islamofascist regime of Iran, that's a you-problem.

 

[SexyIncél]

It's funny you call me a "militant totalitarian" while supporting Iran.

He got something right! (For the wrong reasons, of course. But hey)

I support the Iranian people — not its government — like my friend who I mentioned earlier: "Anyway, just today I was talking with an Iranian friend, a woman who's against the regime."

(Anyway sorry everyone, I promised to stop responding to his absurd claims. This poor fellow who promotes genocide on a suicide forum...)

 

[Pessimist]

(Anyway sorry everyone, I promised to stop responding to his absurd claims. This poor fellow who promotes genocide on a suicide forum...)

If you're referring to the Israel-Hamas war: I didn't know that me asking for the release of the kidnapped Israelis in exchange for a permanent ceasefire, and calling for Netanyahu to resign, was a promotion of genocide. I guess we learn new things everyday!

 

[funeraleveryday]

They have to get rid of their religion

 

[Pessimist]

They have to get rid of their religion

The best take so far.