Discussion Worthless life (Lebensunwertes Leben)

[MichaelSandBL]

I am not condoning taking life without the consent of the individual, I do however have an interest in the mindset of those that do.
We have people who suffer for years because some "goodie two shoes" has the nanny state punish their failed suicide attempt by keeping them alive without their consent.


Lebensunwertes Leben So that's a nazi term for life unworthy of life or worthless life. I would place myself in this category Satoshi Uematsu went to kill people he considered to be a worthless burden on society. I wish the eugenicists had won the war and they'd not only let me die but encourage it, I'm too afraid I would botch or chicken out of my suicide and be stuck in a psyc ward where they go to ridiculous lengths to waste public money keeping alive people who don't even want to live(not referring to non suicidal paitents) Does anyone else route for the enemies of the west just because it would be easier to get death under their boot should they succeed in attrition warfare. So does anyone else feel like they always were or have become a useless burden who a sensible government would have euthanased years ago?

 

[Forever Sleep]

I don't think it should ever be something that is imposed on people. That is genocide. If an individual person wants to CTB because they feel worthless and like they are unable to succeed in life- that's a valid reason for them to decide they want out. In which case- I feel they should be aided to have a peaceful exit under assisted suicide. It shouldn't come down to someone coming along and deciding they should be exterminated though. Maybe as a society, that would make 'us' more efficient but it's hugely immoral.

Besides- it reduces us to machines/slaves. This model might suit you- in terms of- you might be weeded out for extermination. What about those of us who don't have severe illness- can work- but, don't want to be a part of this world? We have to keep living and working because we can function?

Nah- doesn't sound good to me. Instead- assisted suicide should be available to all adults of sound mind. With certain safeguards in place of course. Realistically though- it likely will be the non earning members of society who get offered it first- the old, the ill, the homeless.

 

[MichaelSandBL]

. This model might suit you- in terms of- you might be weeded out for extermination. What about those of us who don't have severe illness- can work- but, don't want to be a part of this world?

There is nothing preventing this cohort from trying but trying unsuccessfully can lead to disability

Instead- assisted suicide should be available to all adults of sound mind. With certain safeguards in place of course. Realistically though- it likely will be the non earning members of society who get offered it first- the old, the ill, the homeless.

Who would you exclude from this?

If an individual person wants to CTB because they feel worthless and like they are unable to succeed in life- that's a valid reason for them to decide they want out. In which case- I feel they should be aided to have a peaceful exit under assisted suicide.

Fully agree but there can be genetic reasons like dysphoria and other things that lead one to desire death.
There are other things like regret and honour.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Who would you exclude from this?

Children- I think it should be for over 18's- unless there are debhilitating health issues present. And people who don't seem to grasp the concept of death- not of sound mind. Personally, I feel that- even with mental illness present- people often can make rationalised decisions for themselves.

 

[MichaelSandBL]

People who don't seem to grasp the concept of death- not of sound mind. Personally, I feel that- even with mental illness present- people often can make rationalised decisions for themselves.

Seems fair but how do you reliably test for this?
What criteria would need to be met for someone who claims to want death but does so for ulterior motives or literally doesn't know?

 

[Forever Sleep]

Seems fair but how do you reliably test for this?
What criteria would need to be met for someone who claims to want death but does so for ulterior motives or literally doesn't know?

What ulterior motives? Are you thinking about coercion? That could well be a problem certainly and- they would have to be wary of greedy relatives trying to bump off their grandparents.

Most people know why they want to die I imagine. Even if it's something more abstract like- I feel sad so much of the time and see no hope in things getting better.

The way I see it- people would need assessing via a person qualified to judge mental competency but also aware of what help there available. Personally- I see no harm in the person being asked gently as to what help they have had in the past- and whether it is something they would consider. But, I don't think that access to assisted suicide should be reliant on them accepting this 'help' because- where does it end? How many pills will they be required to experiment with till they are deemed incurable? Mental health in particular seems to have no limit at the moment.

So long as they can demonstrate that they understand their decision and have considered and rejected all other alternatives- I think people should have the right to bodily autonomy.

I do however also think there should be a waiting period of six months- to try and stop any impulsive suicides. That would also give them the time to be offered help. That could change their minds.

Still... Who are we kidding? With our healthcare services in the state they are in, who's even going to be able to get an appointment in that time?!! It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

 

[MichaelSandBL]

How many pills will they be required to experiment with till they are deemed incurable? Mental health in particular seems to have no limit at the moment.

There is a problem with profiteering here pharmaceutical companies can still give "gifts" to psychs

So long as they can demonstrate that they understand their decision and have considered and rejected all other alternatives- I think people should have the right to bodily autonomy.

What method of demonstration would you go with?

I do however also think there should be a waiting period of six months- to try and stop any impulsive suicides. That would also give them the time to be offered help. That could change their minds.

Very reasonable but this would mean increased caseloads as closeted suicidal people would come forward if they thought it was safe to talk

 

[Forever Sleep]

There is a problem with profiteering here pharmaceutical companies can still give "gifts" to psychs

What method of demonstration would you go with?

Very reasonable but this would mean increased caseloads as closeted suicidal people would come forward if they thought it was safe to talk

Ideally- they would need to be able to communicate- talk or write how they feel. I imagine they must be able to communicate to get their needs met. If someone can't though- if they are badly physically and mentally impaired- then, it does fall to their family and doctors to do the best thing for them. If it's obvious their quality of life is zero- you'd hope they'd make the compassionate choice.

With regards to people coming forward to talk about their suicidal thoughts in a safe environment- good! That should be what everyone wants. If they really want to help us- I'd say that was the way forward. It doesn't really help people to not talk about this stuff- even to their therapists- for fear of being carted off to a psyche ward. I don't think the answer is pumping people full of drugs either. Although, maybe medication has its place. Yes- it would create enormous strain on this new service. (It would be new in my country- the UK.) But it would mean plenty of people who would otherwise be draining the NHS for decades to come probably won't be anymore. Plus- I'd see these clinics like referral places anyhow. If someone is open to treatment- they wouldn't be giving it. They would have a whole network of services to refer them to. Hopefully- better than they are now.

In any case though- I'm fully aware that this is all pie in the sky. I can't see governments ever allowing relatively healthy citizens aid in killing themselves- because we want out. We live in nanny states where we're told what's best for us and expected to comply. That includes slaving away in a wage slave job to make them richer. Nah- I have an interest in assisted suicide but currently, until things get worse for me, it would unlikely ever benefit me.

The only reason I think our governments would consider offering assisted suicide to relatively healthy adults would be if the entire capitalist, consummerist culture changes. If AI truly does start to take over- taking more of our jobs, maybe governments won't want to support all the unemployed. If climate change gets a whole lot worse and resources become dangerously sparse, maybe they'd prefer to have fewer people to share them with. I'm sure it won't be long till they start offering it to the elderly and ill though. I'm sure the economists are itching to cull them. Whatever happens, I feel sure it will be driven by money. So- no- I doubt things will change much.

Ultimately, they know their restriction of peaceful suicide methods puts people off. Not everyone but a lot I imagine. The UK in particular is also very likely going to try and stop people from accessing sites like this and doing their own research. So we'll be left with the very brutal, obvious methods like jumping, train, hanging. Or- we'll much more likely fail and only maim ourselves.

Really- I doubt governments care all that much if people are depressed and suffering. If they are- they have buddies in the pharmaceutical industries to form big contracts with- probably in return for donations to their political party or- because they have their eye on that CEO job after they leave parliament. Maybe I'm cynical. Maybe I'm wrong but- I doubt it. I think this world is so corrupt. So yeah- it's interesting to talk about things like assisted suicide but ultimately, it feels pointless because the people in power don't want things to change. They probably make more money the way things are at the moment.

 

[MichaelSandBL]

it feels pointless because the people in power don't want things to change. They probably make more money the way things are at the moment.

Don't let that discourage you just look at dignitas they didn't give up and now look at them if anything we should try harder