Would US-democracy survive another Trump presidency?

[noname223]

The polls are currently in his favor. I hope the American people is wise enough not to elect him. Such a scenario really scares me. Who is dumb enough to protect Germany's ass almost for free if not the US? (cynical joke - but yes I think we should pay more).

Now on a serious note. There are many reports some establishment guys stopped Trump to exit NATO or other crazy ideas which could have led to new wars. LIke this insane bombing of an Iranian general which almost led to a war. I think Trump'S Twitter policy annoyed many people. All the drama, always accompanied with the fear his new rants could provoke a war. Maybe it was in his favor that they blocked his account I am not sure.

Personally I think and hope many Americans realized Trump is too extreme politically. I think Americans in general like democracy and saw through that Trump's ego led to this insane and false rigged election claims. Trump is way too obsessed by that. The independents don't like that. Or the women in the suburbs. I think if Trump could shut his mouth on the past election his chances would be far better. Though Trump is good at reading the room/ the audience and he has charisma. He has good punchlines and it is impressive how he dealt with DeSantis so far.

I go way too often with the current popular take. Some months ago I already predicted DeSantis would become the next president. And yes I think in the general DeSantis had the better chances. Though it looks like grandpa Biden tries it again and we might get the re-match noone really desired. What if Biden dies or has a stroke during the campaign?

Personally I am pretty anxious about the world and democracy if Trump got another presidency. I think he could quit NATO and Russia starts to invade Europe as a revenge for the Ukraine support. Without the US military we are F-U-C-K-E-D. The US wants to concentrate on China. Europe is unable to defend itself. I think the power balances could completely change. Many experts in my country say we have to prepare for a Republican president who implements US-isolationism again. I am usually really not someone who is scared about world events. Though I think a second Trump presidency could lead to worldwide chaos and wars.

I think the establisment staff in his administration could not hold him back this time. There are very very extreme Trump supporters who don't give a fuck on democracy and rules. This could be the end of Western liberal democracy. Quite scary.

I still think the US average voter does not like all his rigged election allegations. And I would say Biden was the favorite in a re-match at least currently. I was not that scared about his first presidency. I read a lot of fearmongerers. Some probably call this thread fearmongering. But I think Trump has learned his lesson and won't listen to moderate right-wingers this time. Really scary times we live in.

What do you think?

 

[AnonymousTomato]

I already think US democracy is fucked, and another Trump presidency would be the nail in the coffin.

What I can't figure out is what that would look like, the end of democracy. With the way things are going, my best guess is it looks pretty bad but with a majority of people denying anything is going wrong at all. Such that you feel crazy for even suggesting anything is going wrong.

Other than that? No clue. So many people compare current situations to WWII equivalents because I think that's the closest in recent memory we've come to things *really* coming to a head, like a handful of countries losing their shit so bad the rest of the world steps in and it's nigh-apocalyptic. I just don't think that'll happen again with the level of mass destruction we're now capable of.

This time around it probably looks like put up or shut up.

 

[jeton nucleus]

No offense noname223, but I think your question and analysis are both absurd. Your characterization of Trump and Republicans sounds just like the garbage I've been hearing from CNN and MSNBC since about 2015. For example, your concern that the U.S. would leave NATO under Trump has been discussed since prior to the 2016 election (something that Trump never said he was committed to doing), yet it never came anywhere close to fruition in Trump's first term. Why would anything be different in his hypothetical second term? Trump knocked NATO mostly because nations weren't paying their share, which you admit is true of Germany (which was spending less than 1% of its GDP on defense when Trump was elected). Why should my tax dollars protect Germany's ass almost for free (in your words)? You said that Europe is unable to defend itself, but why not? Sorry, but I'm sick of my tax dollars being wasted on countries that won't take adequate measures to protect themselves. Trump's criticism of NATO was absolutely warranted.

The killing of General Soleimani didn't come anywhere close to starting a war. That was just mindless hysteria from leftwing media who couldn't bring themselves to praise anything Trump did. How does Trump taking out Soleimani any different from Obama sending Seal Team Six into Pakistan (which unlike Iran, actually has nuclear weapons) to take out Bin Laden or his liberal use of drones in general during his presidency? The left was also silent when a drone strike after the disastrous Afghanistan withdrawal that the Biden administration originally claimed took out high profile Islamic State fighters, but in reality killed ten civilians, including seven children. If that had been Trump, the left would be calling him a war criminal. And in case you haven't noticed, we are closer to a world war with Biden at the helm than we ever were with Trump.

I find the characterization of Trump as "too extreme politically" to be wildly inaccurate. For the most part, Trump governed as a pretty standard Republican (and I say for the most part because he wasn't as fiscally conservative as some on the right would have liked). Which of Trump's beliefs are "too extreme politically" compared to standard Republican Party beliefs? People conflate Trump's inane social media posts with having extreme policies, but that doesn't match the reality. In reality, Trump was a pretty typical Republican who supported typical Republican things like low taxes and fewer regulations.

I find your statement about "very very extreme Trump supporters" not giving a fuck on democracy and rules laughable. Take the following examples:
- A kid brings a gun to school and Joe Biden and the rest of the left hop on their soapboxes and use that as an excuse to strip constitutionally-protected guns from law-abiding citizens. It's interesting how the left was quick to label the Buffalo supermarket shooter as a Tucker Carlson-watching right extremist (despite the shooter describing himself as a "national socialist" who loathed libertarianism and conservatism) but is silent when the shooter is transgender (like the recent shooting in Nashville) or an avowed Bernie Bro (like the man who shot Republican congressman Steve Scalise).
- When the left isn't happy about a Supreme Court ruling, they propose packing the Supreme Court, despite the fact that it has had nine Justices since 1869.
- When the left doesn't have the votes to pass legislation, they threaten to nuke the filibuster, which has been apart of the Senate since 1805. The left (Obama specifically) has called the filibuster a "Jim Crow relic" but Democrats used it more than 300 times in 2020 when Republicans controlled the Senate.
- The left compares January 6th to 9/11 and Pearl Harbor, but said nothing months earlier while people died and cities burned during the summer of 2020.
- The left says that it is "undemocratic" to question election results but perpetuated the baseless claim that Russia rigged the 2016 election for Donald Trump during his entire presidency. The left has consistently supported Stacey Abrams's baseless claim that she won the 2018 Georgia gubernatorial race and applauded her for not conceding. The left also had no problem calling George W. Bush an illegitimate president after both his 2000 and 2004 victories.
- The left has advocated for abolishing the Electoral College, our method of electing the president since 1789, after losing the 2000 and 2016 elections. Some on the left have also sought to abolish the constitutionally prescribed equal Senate representation, saying that it is unfair that solid red states like Wyoming and South Dakota have the same Senate representation as California and New York, but ignore that the same is true of low population Democrat strangleholds like Vermont and Delaware.
- According to the Biden administration, parents who protest racist and radical sex ideology in school classrooms at school board meetings are domestic terrorists, but again, burning down buildings and looting businesses in the name of social justice is "mostly peaceful protesting."
- Democrat-run states imposed the most stringent COVID policies, yet the Democrats who imposed those policies repeatedly violated them (see London Breed, Muriel Bowser, Gretchen Whitmer, and Gavin Newsome, just to name a few) and vacationed in Republican-run states like Florida (see Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez). Democrat-run states shut down churches (which one would think would be protected by the First Amendment) but allowed liquor stores and casinos to operate as normal. Ordinary people were not allowed to have funerals for their loved ones but John Lewis got an extravagant funeral. My barbershop was forced to close during COVID but Nancy Pelosi and Lori Lightfoot were still able to get their hair done. Leftist hypocrisy during COVID knew no bounds.

So I'm sorry, but which side doesn't give a fuck about democracy and rules? The left uses "threat to democracy" rhetoric whenever they aren't getting their way. It wasn't long ago that Elon Musk buying Twitter was a "threat to democracy." Hell, some Democrats said Joe Manchin siding with Republicans at times in 2021-2022 was a threat to democracy (imagine thinking that losing a vote 51-49 is a threat to democracy). Just hearing "threat to democracy" induces a Pavlovian-type response of eyerolling and not taking that person seriously. Interestingly, COVID gave Trump the opportunity to govern as the dictator or fascist he was always accused of being, but never used COVID as an excuse to increase federal power (compared to Biden who has used COVID as an excuse to bypass Congress to institute a vaccine mandate or forgive student loan debt). The first Trump presidency didn't lead to worldwide chaos (save COVID) or war, so your fears that a second Trump presidency would are completely unfounded. If you legitimately think that Trump's re-election would bring an end to Western democracy, you are giving the man too much credit. In reality, a second Trump administration would probably closely resemble the first: standard Republican policies while the left freaks out about Trump's stupid social media posts. I'll take that any day over what we have now.

 

[noname223]

No offense noname223, but I think your question and analysis are both absurd. Your characterization of Trump and Republicans sounds just like the garbage I've been hearing from CNN and MSNBC since about 2015. For example, your concern that the U.S. would leave NATO under Trump has been discussed since prior to the 2016 election (something that Trump never said he was committed to doing), yet it never came anywhere close to fruition in Trump's first term. Why would anything be different in his hypothetical second term? Trump knocked NATO mostly because nations weren't paying their share, which you admit is true of Germany (which was spending less than 1% of its GDP on defense when Trump was elected). Why should my tax dollars protect Germany's ass almost for free (in your words)? You said that Europe is unable to defend itself, but why not? Sorry, but I'm sick of my tax dollars being wasted on countries that won't take adequate measures to protect themselves. Trump's criticism of NATO was absolutely warranted.

The killing of General Soleimani didn't come anywhere close to starting a war. That was just mindless hysteria from leftwing media who couldn't bring themselves to praise anything Trump did. How does Trump taking out Soleimani any different from Obama sending Seal Team Six into Pakistan (which unlike Iran, actually has nuclear weapons) to take out Bin Laden or his liberal use of drones in general during his presidency? The left was also silent when a drone strike after the disastrous Afghanistan withdrawal that the Biden administration originally claimed took out high profile Islamic State fighters, but in reality killed ten civilians, including seven children. If that had been Trump, the left would be calling him a war criminal. And in case you haven't noticed, we are closer to a world war with Biden at the helm than we ever were with Trump.

I find the characterization of Trump as "too extreme politically" to be wildly inaccurate. For the most part, Trump governed as a pretty standard Republican (and I say for the most part because he wasn't as fiscally conservative as some on the right would have liked). Which of Trump's beliefs are "too extreme politically" compared to standard Republican Party beliefs? People conflate Trump's inane social media posts with having extreme policies, but that doesn't match the reality. In reality, Trump was a pretty typical Republican who supported typical Republican things like low taxes and fewer regulations.

I find your statement about "very very extreme Trump supporters" not giving a fuck on democracy and rules laughable. Take the following examples:
- A kid brings a gun to school and Joe Biden and the rest of the left hop on their soapboxes and use that as an excuse to strip constitutionally-protected guns from law-abiding citizens. It's interesting how the left was quick to label the Buffalo supermarket shooter as a Tucker Carlson-watching right extremist (despite the shooter describing himself as a "national socialist" who loathed libertarianism and conservatism) but is silent when the shooter is transgender (like the recent shooting in Nashville) or an avowed Bernie Bro (like the man who shot Republican congressman Steve Scalise).
- When the left isn't happy about a Supreme Court ruling, they propose packing the Supreme Court, despite the fact that it has had nine Justices since 1869.
- When the left doesn't have the votes to pass legislation, they threaten to nuke the filibuster, which has been apart of the Senate since 1805. The left (Obama specifically) has called the filibuster a "Jim Crow relic" but Democrats used it more than 300 times in 2020 when Republicans controlled the Senate.
- The left compares January 6th to 9/11 and Pearl Harbor, but said nothing months earlier while people died and cities burned during the summer of 2020.
- The left says that it is "undemocratic" to question election results but perpetuated the baseless claim that Russia rigged the 2016 election for Donald Trump during his entire presidency. The left has consistently supported Stacey Abrams's baseless claim that she won the 2018 Georgia gubernatorial race and applauded her for not conceding. The left also had no problem calling George W. Bush an illegitimate president after both his 2000 and 2004 victories.
- The left has advocated for abolishing the Electoral College, our method of electing the president since 1789, after losing the 2000 and 2016 elections. Some on the left have also sought to abolish the constitutionally prescribed equal Senate representation, saying that it is unfair that solid red states like Wyoming and South Dakota have the same Senate representation as California and New York, but ignore that the same is true of low population Democrat strangleholds like Vermont and Delaware.
- According to the Biden administration, parents who protest racist and radical sex ideology in school classrooms at school board meetings are domestic terrorists, but again, burning down buildings and looting businesses in the name of social justice is "mostly peaceful protesting."
- Democrat-run states imposed the most stringent COVID policies, yet the Democrats who imposed those policies repeatedly violated them (see London Breed, Muriel Bowser, Gretchen Whitmer, and Gavin Newsome, just to name a few) and vacationed in Republican-run states like Florida (see Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez). Democrat-run states shut down churches (which one would think would be protected by the First Amendment) but allowed liquor stores and casinos to operate as normal. Ordinary people were not allowed to have funerals for their loved ones but John Lewis got an extravagant funeral. My barbershop was forced to close during COVID but Nancy Pelosi and Lori Lightfoot were still able to get their hair done. Leftist hypocrisy during COVID knew no bounds.

So I'm sorry, but which side doesn't give a fuck about democracy and rules? The left uses "threat to democracy" rhetoric whenever they aren't getting their way. It wasn't long ago that Elon Musk buying Twitter was a "threat to democracy." Hell, some Democrats said Joe Manchin siding with Republicans at times in 2021-2022 was a threat to democracy (imagine thinking that losing a vote 51-49 is a threat to democracy). Just hearing "threat to democracy" induces a Pavlovian-type response of eyerolling and not taking that person seriously. Interestingly, COVID gave Trump the opportunity to govern as the dictator or fascist he was always accused of being, but never used COVID as an excuse to increase federal power (compared to Biden who has used COVID as an excuse to bypass Congress to institute a vaccine mandate or forgive student loan debt). The first Trump presidency didn't lead to worldwide chaos (save COVID) or war, so your fears that a second Trump presidency would are completely unfounded. If you legitimately think that Trump's re-election would bring an end to Western democracy, you are giving the man too much credit. In reality, a second Trump administration would probably closely resemble the first: standard Republican policies while the left freaks out about Trump's stupid social media posts. I'll take that any day over what we have now.

I am conflicted whether I should reply. I don't have the time to elaborate on every of your points. So I just give a summed up version of my answer.

Your first points is weird. First you say Trump never wanted to leave NATO but afterwards you agree with Trump when he said the allies don't pay enough. Well Trump threatened to leave inter alia because of that. So the way you present it is kind of contradictory.

How was Trump extreme? He incited violence at January 6. He did not push his supporters enough when they wanted to kill the vice-president. He wanted to manipulate the results of the legitimate election . He pressured officials to "find" the necessary votes. So he wanted to undermine the US-democracy is that enough?


Many of your points are whataboutisms. I think also the democratic establishment is very flawed. Though compared to Trump they are way less extreme. Personally I would have voted for Bernie Sanders if I had have the option.

-gun laws well the liberal gun laws is the root of the problem why the US has so many shootings. In most European countries there are way less and the gun laws is what makes the difference

You always speak about the left. That sounds you like you imagine them as a homogeneous or monolithic block. You cannot put all leftwingers in one category. There are many nuances and differences between them. I can understand some of your points. And some of your criticisms are correct in my opinion. However I think you tend to depict a false equivalence. For example gerrymandering (as an example) both parties do that but the Republicans on a different and way larger magnitude. You did not mention gerrymandering but I wanted to express the following. Yes the intentions of the Democratic party are not purely good many of it is a strategy. Though it is only right to play this way because the opponent has stopped to play far and radicalized. The GOP has become more and more extreme and treating them as honest opponents would be naive.

-Well Bush stole the election. Many experts say if the Supreme court did not intervene in this way Al Gore would have won

-well it is obvious the US-system is highly flawed and needs reforms. The system is dysfunctional and leads to polarization. It is not far away that both parties hate each other so much that they intentionally block as much legislation as possible. It is rather a partisan fight and not a question what is the best for the country.

I had to write more to give a more detailed answer. I think you set a false balance with many points. Though I am quite sure we cannot change each others opinion any way.