Venting Would you agree that if there was god he be a psychopath

[Darkover]

It's understandable why someone might see things that way. The suffering and violence inherent in nature—animals having to kill to survive, people facing illness, disasters, and other hardships—make the idea of a benevolent deity seem incompatible with the harshness of life.

The brutality of the animal kingdom raises challenging questions about nature itself. In the natural world, suffering seems to be woven into the fabric of life: animals endure painful deaths, predation, diseases, and even behaviors that could be seen as cruel, like infants being abandoned or killed by their own species.

Animals don't make moral choices—they follow instincts that have evolved over time, leading to behaviors that are often violent and unrelenting. For them, there's no apparent reward or higher purpose to justify this suffering. These instincts aren't about choice but survival in a system where pain and struggle are inevitable.

Being neutral in a hostile environment does seem especially challenging to justify. If a deity exists and chooses neutrality in a world full of suffering, it can feel like an active choice to allow harm to persist without intervention. In a setting where pain, struggle, and survival dominate, the choice not to alleviate suffering—or even prevent it—seems like a passive endorsement of that suffering.

In a neutral world where creatures didn't have to kill to survive, neutrality might look more benign, as you mentioned. But when suffering is unavoidable, a deity allowing this without intervention could feel indifferent at best, or even malevolent at worst, to many people.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

It's not really fair to say God is a psychopath. Maybe he would be one by human standards but if God was actually real, then it's likely that human concepts of morality and philosophy would simply not apply to him. Whatever purpose he had in mind when designing things the way they are is probably impossible for us to comprehend and the reasons for it probably make even less sense to us.

That said God is probably still a little bit of a troll at the very least.

 

[Pluto]

 

[Darkover]

It's not really fair to say God is a psychopath. Maybe he would be one by human standards but if God was actually real, then it's likely that human concepts of morality and philosophy would simply not apply to him. Whatever purpose he had in mind when designing things the way they are is probably impossible for us to comprehend and the reasons for it probably make even less sense to us.

That said God is probably still a little bit of a troll at the very least.

Suffering without explanation feels unnecessary and cruel, even from a distance. If morality doesn't apply to a deity, it could in theory allow for any action, no matter how painful or horrific, without needing any justification. But this raises a major issue: if a deity permits immense suffering (especially "natural evil," like animal suffering), without giving any reason that we can understand, this lack of transparency undermines the trust or reverence that moral beings might have for it. Even if there were a higher reason, a compassionate being might be expected to provide some form of comfort or understanding.

If we are morally conscious, wouldn't a deity be even more so? The very fact that humans have developed concepts of empathy, kindness, and justice could imply that a higher being would have these qualities to an even greater degree, not less. Otherwise, it would seem strange that finite beings like us would be morally troubled by suffering if the creator of such a universe remains indifferent.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

imo if God exists, all he did was get the ball rolling at the start of the universe. Then he just sat back and let things play out. I doubt he could be characterized as either benevolent or malevolent.

 

[Forever Sleep]

By our own standards- I'd say yes. A narcissistic, psychopathic sadist who will punish us for realising that they are and having the audacity to point it out. I know I'm in deep shit if there is one but I also think it's better to be true to myself. If there is one, I'm certain they can spot a fake from 300 miles off.

To be honest, I can't get my head around how people can't see God as either cruel or, weak. Either they can't defeat 'evil'- suffering. Or, they created it or are complicit in letting it happen because they are intent on punishing people and creatures- one way or another- when they are alive and when they die.

What kind of being wants to punish its own creations? That's weird- no? Even as a 'teaching' style, it's weird. You don't cast a child into a burning pit of fire forever to teach them a lesson. You don't punish anyone for eternity to teach them a lesson. That's just sadism.

I think a lot of religious people have a version of a good God in their minds but I don't see how it is supported in either religious texts or the reality of this world.

imo if God exists, all he did was get the ball rolling at the start of the universe. Then he just sat back and let things play out. I doubt he could be characterized as either benevolent or malevolent.

I've thought about this too. Like, the mad scientist type or, an artist that likes to create but doesn't want to maintain. Like, maybe they go around just carelessly creating life all over the place for the hell of it.

Sometimes, I can't work out which is worse, an irresponsible idiot at the helm or, a sadist!

Ultimately though, it's much more basic than that to my mind. I'm here because my parents thought it was a good idea to reproduce. Beyond that, in terms of a God, I can't be certain but, they certainly thought it was a good idea to create life here and I really can't fathom why!

Being neutral in a hostile environment does seem especially challenging to justify. If a deity exists and chooses neutrality in a world full of suffering, it can feel like an active choice to allow harm to persist without intervention. In a setting where pain, struggle, and survival dominate, the choice not to alleviate suffering—or even prevent it—seems like a passive endorsement of that suffering.

Humans do this too though... I'm only vegetarian- not vegan and from previous posts of yours- you're not either- if I remember rightly.

Ok- you didn't create carnivours and the need to eat meat but- you're also endorsing a cruel system. We likely all are to varying degrees.

 

[Darkover]

Humans do this too though... I'm only vegetarian- not vegan and from previous posts of yours- you're not either- if I remember rightly.

Ok- you didn't create carnivours and the need to eat meat but- you're also endorsing a cruel system. We likely all are to varying degrees.

yeah i eat meat regrettably, my dad a vegetarian he eats quorn meat he use to be a chief he like's to cook spaghetti bolognese

It's true that both humans and animals participate in systems that can be seen as cruel, and many of us contribute to that system in various ways. The challenge lies in finding a balance between personal beliefs, available choices, and the broader implications of our consumption habits.

 

[axab43]

No, I don't agree. Funny there have been a few posts on here from Christians and then this post comes up. Being as there are Christians, maybe respect would be the thing to bear in mind, actually respect for each other, whether we believe in God, are Christians or are atheists, or whatever else there may be out there (edited comment).


I believe in a creator God who made the world perfect, then His own creation choose to go against him and spoiled that creation, (because God doesn't make robots so everyone has choice.) That choice made set the world put darkness in the world and yes God could remove it all, if He made human beings robots who would do exactly what they were programmed to do and never did evil. He would always give humans a choice so this world is what their choices created. Jesus came into the world to reset that pattern and give people the chance to choose Him and not this fallen world where humans live without God so create chaos (by choice.) Still doesn't mean life will be perfect but the next life will be.

This is the Christian faith that i believe in. I respect anyone's right not to believe in it as others should respect those of Christians. (And there are unexplained things/this life can be cruel as it is fallen, hence the reason we are all here. This life is short though, the next one won't be whether we wind up in one place or another.)

 

[Darkover]

I've thought about this too. Like, the mad scientist type or, an artist that likes to create but doesn't want to maintain. Like, maybe they go around just carelessly creating life all over the place for the hell of it.

Sometimes, I can't work out which is worse, an irresponsible idiot at the helm or, a sadist!

If the creator is irresponsible, it implies a lack of care for the beings they brought into existence, leading to suffering and struggle without oversight or intervention. On the other hand, a sadistic creator suggests a deliberate enjoyment of suffering, which paints a much darker picture.

No, I don't agree. Funny there have been a few posts on here from Christians and then this post comes up. Being as there are Christians, maybe respect would be the thing to bear in mind. I could say a lot about people who think all of this world just popped up out of nothing and grew into all it is today.


I believe in a creator God who made the world perfect, then His own creation choose to go against him and spoiled that creaiton, (because God doesn't make robots so everyone has choice.) That choice made set the world put darkness in the world and yes God could remove it all, if He made human beings robots who would do exactly what they were programmed to do and never did evil. He would always give humans a choice so this world is what their choices created. Jesus came into the world to reset that pattern and give people the chance to choose Him and not this fallen world where humans live without God so create chaos (by choice.) Still doesn't mean life will be perfect but the next life will be.

This is the Christian faith that i believe in. I respect anyone's right not to believe in it as others should respect those of Christians. (And there are unexplained things/this life can be cruel as it is fallen, hence the reason we are all here. This life is short though, the next one won't be whether we wind up in one place or another.)

i have some strong feelings about religion and the lack of evidence in religious claims. Many people share my frustration when it comes to discussions about belief systems, especially when they feel that evidence is disregarded in favor of faith.

my emphasis on proof and evidence is a common viewpoint among atheists and skeptics. It's understandable to feel incredulous when faced with claims that seem to lack substantiation, particularly when the evidence cited often comes from sacred texts rather than empirical data. It can indeed feel frustrating when the response to a request for evidence is a quote rather than a logical argument or scientific backing.

The distinction i make about the burden of proof is crucial in debates about existence and belief. Many atheists argue that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and without it, skepticism is a reasonable stance. This highlights a fundamental difference in how people approach belief: some prioritize faith and tradition, while others lean heavily on scientific reasoning and evidence.

It's worth noting that discussions about religion often evoke strong emotions and can lead to misunderstandings. People believe in different things for a variety of reasons, and sometimes those reasons are deeply personal or cultural rather than logical. Engaging with these beliefs can be challenging, especially when they conflict with one's own values or worldview. How do you typically handle conversations where you feel the other person is not considering evidence in a meaningful way?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Suffering without explanation feels unnecessary and cruel, even from a distance. If morality doesn't apply to a deity, it could in theory allow for any action, no matter how painful or horrific, without needing any justification. But this raises a major issue: if a deity permits immense suffering (especially "natural evil," like animal suffering), without giving any reason that we can understand, this lack of transparency undermines the trust or reverence that moral beings might have for it. Even if there were a higher reason, a compassionate being might be expected to provide some form of comfort or understanding.

If we are morally conscious, wouldn't a deity be even more so? The very fact that humans have developed concepts of empathy, kindness, and justice could imply that a higher being would have these qualities to an even greater degree, not less. Otherwise, it would seem strange that finite beings like us would be morally troubled by suffering if the creator of such a universe remains indifferent.

Well some may argue that he did give us transparency about our nature and purpose through stuff like the gospel of the Bible or whatever but I guess he could have made it more appealing to actually be a Christian if that's really what he wanted. The comfort and understanding you seek may not actually be what you or most people want to hear even if it turns out to be true.

The morality of deities is also unfathomable to us. Why should a higher being of any sort even care about things like suffering and cruelty if they don't ever experience it? Actually maybe one possibility is that all this suffering is actually necessary for some further goal. Maybe we're all collectively being trained to create our own universe with compassion in mind. Sucks that we have to live through it but I guess it is what it is.

All those fancy good things like Justice and benevolence you mention are also human constructs, though perhaps they are also merely adaptive survival traits that our monkey brains developed or something to that effect.

With all that said though, whoever God is he could just be totally apathetic to existence as a whole even after creating it. Even in that case it still wouldn't really be proper to call him a psychopath if maybe he simply doesn't know or care about the consequences of his creation. If I draw a stick figure on a piece of paper how am I a psychopath just because it happens to suffer and experience torture after I created it? It has no way of even communicating with me since I'm in a whole third dimension and I have no way of even knowing any of the pain it goes through.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

From my perspective, yes, god is a psychopath if he created existence and is all powerful to stop it or all knowing to realise that existence would be like this and still started existence anyway. There is nothing in existence that shows that god is all loving. He created a world full of suffering and hardship, a world where there has to be winners and losers. Why couldn't god create a world where everybody is a winner, where suffering and pain doesn't exist? Why did god create sentient organisms that rely on consuming other sentient organisms just to survive? There's no "intelligent design" here, only stupid design. It gets significantly worse if you're specifically referring to an abrahamic god since anybody who rejects his design or doesn't believe in him gets thrown into hell

 

[axab43]

From my perspective, yes, god is a psychopath if he created existence and is all powerful to stop it or all knowing to realise that existence would be like this and still started existence anyway. There is nothing in existence that shows that god is all loving. He created a world full of suffering and hardship, a world where there has to be winners and losers. Why couldn't god create a world where everybody is a winner, where suffering and pain doesn't exist? Why did god create sentient organisms that rely on consuming other sentient organisms just to survive? There's no "intelligent design" here, only stupid design. It gets significantly worse if you're specifically referring to an abrahamic god since anybody who rejects his design or doesn't believe in him gets thrown into hell

If you look in the Bible, He did create the world without suffering or pain/hardship and then the people He created chose to reject what He said and chose a path that set them against Him and put their will against His own, which is how everything ended up in chaos and suffering. He could have created people who would be forced to obey Him so that suffering/hardship wouldn't have entered the world but that would have made them robots with no will or choice of their own and He did not want to do that. And if there is a choice where you can choose to do things God's way and /live with Him, but you decide not to, you go with the choice and with the consequences.

People keep saying why did God create a world full of suffering. He didn't. The world He created was perfect, until people turned away from Him. The He said, ok if you want to go your own way, do it. And all of this suffering has come out as a consequence of man choosing his way.. It is the same with whether people choose to believe Him or not There are consequences for choices throughout life/

I respect your viewpoint and why you would believe what you have said and understand it. But having been a Christian for 40 years, just presenting what Christians believe.

 

[HereIGoAgain24]

If you look in the Bible, He did create the world without suffering or pain/hardship and then the people He created chose to reject what He said and chose a path that set them against Him and put their will against His own, which is how everything ended up in chaos and suffering. He could have created people who would be forced to obey Him so that suffering/hardship wouldn't have entered the world but that would have made them robots with no will or choice of their own and He did not want to do that. And if there is a choice where you can choose to do things God's way and /live with Him, but you decide not to, you go with the choice and with the consequences.

People keep saying why did God create a world full of suffering. He didn't. The world He created was perfect, until people turned away from Him. The He said, ok if you want to go your own way, do it. And all of this suffering has come out as a consequence of man choosing his way.. It is the same with whether people choose to believe Him or not There are consequences for choices throughout life/

I respect your viewpoint and why you would believe what you have said and understand it. But having been a Christian for 40 years, just presenting what Christians believe.

But if that's the case, why doesn't God intervene in the suffering- if nothing else, he could make himself/his presence more explicit to remove any doubt, to make it more easy for people to follow in his footsteps. It just doesn't add up to me, especially when I look at other nations where Christianity is practically nonexistent. Couldn't he save far more people by making it clear their faiths are false, and following him is the way?

 

[Forever Sleep]

The morality of deities is also unfathomable to us. Why should a higher being of any sort even care about things like suffering and cruelty if they don't ever experience it?

True, but why would they then be so obsessed with us following a moral code? Because they'd prefer not to see us hack each other to bits maybe...

Feels to me more like they enjoy the power though. Why create beings that are lustful, glutonous, capable of envy, pride, anger, greed, lazyness. Then tell them those qualities are all off limits? If you truly love God, you'll deny all the impulses they purposefully gave you- presumably to test your faith. That seems pretty twisted to me.

But then, like you say- they don't actually need our approval, just our fear and compliance supposedly. But, not even that maybe. Why should they particularly care whether we're in heaven, hell or on earth?

I guess I've always prefered leaders that set a good example themselves. I don't have much respect for the school of: 'Do as I say, not as I do.' I love it when people earn my respect and love. Not demand, threaten or frighten me into it! It isn't genuine for me then. Don't get me wrong, if there is a God, I can admire them for some of the things they created but a lot just leaves me in disbelief. Not that I'm in any position to judge God but I don't see how I'm supposed to love them.

 

[axab43]

I see what you mean. God's plan is to use His Church to show Himself in the world/be more visible. If every Christian was as they are supposed to be, then He would be far more visible. But many Christians are not as they are supposed to be. Many who say they are CHristians are not, even in history, some who said they were Christians were vile, (such as in the Crusades and Inquisition.) Once you become a Christian, you know what I'm talking about but it is still tough, as I said, otherwise no Christians would be here.

But if that's the case, why doesn't God intervene in the suffering- if nothing else, he could make himself/his presence more explicit to remove any doubt, to make it more easy for people to follow in his footsteps. It just doesn't add up to me, especially when I look at other nations where Christianity is practically nonexistent. Couldn't he save far more people by making it clear their faiths are false, and following him is the way?

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I don't know if I would call them a psychopath. Besides the fact that I don't like the term, I feel like I shouldn't be pushing my own human moral standards onto someone who isn't human. Think of it kind of like how in certain fields in biology (such as zoology), it is usually suggested that you should try not to anthropomorphize non-human animals. I feel like the same thing applies here. God isn't human and I don't feel like I can hold them to human standards.

I believe in a creator God who made the world perfect, then His own creation choose to go against him and spoiled that creation, (because God doesn't make robots so everyone has choice.) That choice made set the world put darkness in the world and yes God could remove it all, if He made human beings robots who would do exactly what they were programmed to do and never did evil. He would always give humans a choice so this world is what their choices created. Jesus came into the world to reset that pattern and give people the chance to choose Him and not this fallen world where humans live without God so create chaos (by choice.) Still doesn't mean life will be perfect but the next life will be.

The world was never perfect to begin with, even prior to when the first modern humans were around. Also, humans are in some capacity "programed" and are predisposed to exhibit certain behaviours in some capacity due to evolution. We don't always have a choice. There is a reason why the idea of "free will" has always been a hotly debated topic. Evil isn't even real. It's a concept that doesn't exist outside of our brains and whose definition changes depending on who you ask. That's also why people apart of your religion in particular seem to be unable to reach any sort of consensus on what your God considers to be good or bad.

 

[derpyderpins]

If you look in the Bible, He did create the world without suffering or pain/hardship and then the people He created chose to reject what He said and chose a path that set them against Him and put their will against His own, which is how everything ended up in chaos and suffering. He could have created people who would be forced to obey Him so that suffering/hardship wouldn't have entered the world but that would have made them robots with no will or choice of their own and He did not want to do that. And if there is a choice where you can choose to do things God's way and /live with Him, but you decide not to, you go with the choice and with the consequences.

People keep saying why did God create a world full of suffering. He didn't. The world He created was perfect, until people turned away from Him. The He said, ok if you want to go your own way, do it. And all of this suffering has come out as a consequence of man choosing his way.. It is the same with whether people choose to believe Him or not There are consequences for choices throughout life/

I respect your viewpoint and why you would believe what you have said and understand it. But having been a Christian for 40 years, just presenting what Christians believe.

Props for presenting a different viewpoint.

"people turned away from him." I didn't get that chance, though. Are you going back to Adam and Eve? So we're all unique and different, not robotic recreations, yet the first two got to decide for everyone for eternity?

---

@Forever Sleep mentioned god might just be weak. Isn't that interesting to think about? Responses here are assuming omnipotence, but maybe god would just be a powerful, but not all-powerful, being. Maybe he set things in motion and now is just not able to control them, like he can only focus on one place at once and can only do so much without reality tearing, so he has all these constraints we're unaware of. idk. Fun thought experiment.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Props for presenting a different viewpoint.

"people turned away from him." I didn't get that chance, though. Are you going back to Adam and Eve? So we're all unique and different, not robotic recreations, yet the first two got to decide for everyone for eternity?

---

@Forever Sleep mentioned god might just be weak. Isn't that interesting to think about? Responses here are assuming omnipotence, but maybe god would just be a powerful, but not all-powerful, being. Maybe he set things in motion and now is just not able to control them, like he can only focus on one place at once and can only do so much without reality tearing, so he has all these constraints we're unaware of. idk. Fun thought experiment.

Yeah, that's why I prefer the thought of there being no God because, the alternatives- in terms of character anyway, doesn't seem at all good.

If you look in the Bible, He did create the world without suffering or pain/hardship and then the people He created chose to reject what He said and chose a path that set them against Him and put their will against His own, which is how everything ended up in chaos and suffering. He could have created people who would be forced to obey Him so that suffering/hardship wouldn't have entered the world but that would have made them robots with no will or choice of their own and He did not want to do that. And if there is a choice where you can choose to do things God's way and /live with Him, but you decide not to, you go with the choice and with the consequences.

People keep saying why did God create a world full of suffering. He didn't. The world He created was perfect, until people turned away from Him. The He said, ok if you want to go your own way, do it. And all of this suffering has come out as a consequence of man choosing his way.. It is the same with whether people choose to believe Him or not There are consequences for choices throughout life/

I respect your viewpoint and why you would believe what you have said and understand it. But having been a Christian for 40 years, just presenting what Christians believe.

I guess my argument against that though is- why create humankind with such an incredible weakness for temptation in the first place? It's not just a matter of giving humankind the ability to choose. It's deliberately making the wrong choice incredibly alluring! It doesn't end there either- most of the 7 deadly sins are also incredibly alluring.

The 'unforgiveable sin' (isn't it?) of declaring there is no God at all is incredibly alluring when they haven't shown themselves for thousands of years. Modern science turns up to prove there are other processes that created us. And there are (roughly, apparently) around 10,000 religions to choose from and presumably, the one we happen to pick is very dependent on when and where we lived and what our parents believed. Why make us so susceptible to making the wrong (and punishable) choice? Unless they enjoy punishing people? That seems the logical conclusion to me.

Why put the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden in the first place? (I'm guessing that's what you're refering to.) Clearly, God wanted to test their creation and, punish them if they got it wrong. Then, presumably, continue to punish their creation forever more for getting it wrong. I simply don't get it with the whole forever punishment thing either. Wasn't Lucifer sent to hell forever for disagreeing with God? What father punishes their child forever? What's even the point in that? Surely, when a child does something bad- yes, you reprimand them. You explain to them why it was bad but then- you show them you still love them and let them return to normal life- putting hope and faith in them that they won't do it again. You don't sit them on the naughty step and leave them there forever on their own.

Sorry, I just get so frustrated with it all. I actually kind of admire religious people themselves. I love the idea of faith and loyalty. But, I don't personally see how this God is deserving of it. (Sorry if that's offensive and, I realise I'll likely be punished if there is a God! But- if they're that smart, they already know how I feel and why.)

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

True, but why would they then be so obsessed with us following a moral code? Because they'd prefer not to see us hack each other to bits maybe...

The moral code is something we invented to keep our species alive. Our DNA is what would very much prefer that we not hack each other to bits. Maybe that's part of what God intended with his design, if he even exists, or maybe not. I personally don't think he actually cares all that much but that's just because I'm only 1 in a few trillion individual sentient beings so I don't get to see any benefits from him. It's just a theory though.

 

[Forever Sleep]

The moral code is something we invented to keep our species alive. Our DNA is what would very much prefer that we not hack each other to bits. Maybe that's part of what God intended with his design, if he even exists, or maybe not. I personally don't think he actually cares all that much but that's just because I'm only 1 in a few trillion individual sentient beings so I don't get to see any benefits from him. It's just a theory though.

Religious texts are cramed full of moral codes... Not surprising really. If there really is a God and they looked down and saw what was going on... They'd be like- shit! It's all going to shit! Better set some ground rules fast! Didn't Ricky Gervais do a sketch on all the animals the bible forbids man to have sex with? Like yeah- if that was going on, you can see why God would intervene.

 

[axab43]

Yeah, that's why I prefer the thought of there being no God because, the alternatives- in terms of character anyway, doesn't seem at all good.



I guess my argument against that though is- why create humankind with such an incredible weakness for temptation in the first place? It's not just a matter of giving humankind the ability to choose. It's deliberately making the wrong choice incredibly alluring! It doesn't end there either- most of the 7 deadly sins are also incredibly alluring.

The 'unforgiveable sin' (isn't it?) of declaring there is no God at all is incredibly alluring when they haven't shown themselves for thousands of years. Modern science turns up to prove there are other processes that created us. And there are (roughly, apparently) around 10,000 religions to choose from and presumably, the one we happen to pick is very dependent on when and where we lived and what our parents believed. Why make us so susceptible to making the wrong (and punishable) choice? Unless they enjoy punishing people? That seems the logical conclusion to me.

Why put the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden in the first place? (I'm guessing that's what you're refering to.) Clearly, God wanted to test their creation and, punish them if they got it wrong. Then, presumably, continue to punish their creation forever more for getting it wrong. I simply don't get it with the whole forever punishment thing either. Wasn't Lucifer sent to hell forever for disagreeing with God? What father punishes their child forever? What's even the point in that? Surely, when a child does something bad- yes, you reprimand them. You explain to them why it was bad but then- you show them you still love them and let them return to normal life- putting hope and faith in them that they won't do it again. You don't sit them on the naughty step and leave them there forever on their own.

Sorry, I just get so frustrated with it all. I actually kind of admire religious people themselves. I love the idea of faith and loyalty. But, I don't personally see how this God is deserving of it. (Sorry if that's offensive and, I realise I'll likely be punished if there is a God! But- if they're that smart, they already know how I feel and why.)

I dont agree science has proven that there are other things that have created us. There are many scientists who are Christians who believe faith and science can go together and complement each other. Louis Pasteur is probably one of the most famous. As for 10,000 other religions, it kind of proves why Christianity is so powerful, as it is one of the two major religions in the world that everyone thinks of (and started with one man, twelve followers 2,000 years ago. Now millions believe in Him. Not many people have heard of any of the others 9,998 religions! (And Lucifer didn't disagree with God, he wanted equality with God and to be as great as him. No parent would allow any child to want to rule over them and be as powerful as they are as it would result in chaos, for one thing. )

Your views are not offensive. I didn't believe in anything either for years until I became a Christian and it is ok to have doubts. I have just found it to be true, even through many rough times.

As for making us susceptible to making the wrong choice, He also made us able to make the right choice, with just a bit of willpower. And if people blow it and make the wrong choice, they can be forgiven, if they ask! If they don't ask and never want to even believe God exists, that is up to them too.

But as I said, I understand your doubts as I have had doubts too, after many years as a CHristian and some tough times, (part of the reason I'm here.) But I still believe as He has proved Himself many times over the years and heaven is a lot longer than the short period of time we are here. (I also don't believe suicide is the unforgivable sin. That is not in the Bible, that is what religious people make up themselves as they don't like to think about it, without really having any proof for it.)

 

[DarkRange55]

It's understandable why someone might see things that way. The suffering and violence inherent in nature—animals having to kill to survive, people facing illness, disasters, and other hardships—make the idea of a benevolent deity seem incompatible with the harshness of life.

The brutality of the animal kingdom raises challenging questions about nature itself. In the natural world, suffering seems to be woven into the fabric of life: animals endure painful deaths, predation, diseases, and even behaviors that could be seen as cruel, like infants being abandoned or killed by their own species.

Animals don't make moral choices—they follow instincts that have evolved over time, leading to behaviors that are often violent and unrelenting. For them, there's no apparent reward or higher purpose to justify this suffering. These instincts aren't about choice but survival in a system where pain and struggle are inevitable.

Being neutral in a hostile environment does seem especially challenging to justify. If a deity exists and chooses neutrality in a world full of suffering, it can feel like an active choice to allow harm to persist without intervention. In a setting where pain, struggle, and survival dominate, the choice not to alleviate suffering—or even prevent it—seems like a passive endorsement of that suffering.

In a neutral world where creatures didn't have to kill to survive, neutrality might look more benign, as you mentioned. But when suffering is unavoidable, a deity allowing this without intervention could feel indifferent at best, or even malevolent at worst, to many people.

Animals don't make moral choices

At least chimps, dogs and ravens have been shown to be stressed by, or even to reject, unfair rewards.

—they follow instincts that have evolved over time, leading to behaviors that are often violent and unrelenting?

How different are most people?

For them, there's no apparent reward or higher purpose to justify this suffering.

Which is why we have religion ...

These instincts aren't about choice but survival in a system where pain and struggle are inevitable?

How different are most people? We are merely rich enough to achieve a more enjoyable balance.