are incels allowed here?

[duck2k3]

"Their own level." Again it's simplifying what constitutes someone's "level."

The market determines the value/level, not me. The dating market values looks first, for men and women. Men are just more honest about their preferences.

But sure! Height and money are factors that matter to many women

Most women, I mean like pretty much all of them.

still struggle to find a partner they love and trust

They struggle to get the men they want.

'm now married to a wonderful woman.

dude you're on a suicide forum

 

[Forever Sleep]

I expect most people will give you a chance. However, I'd like to point something out about human nature- as I see it. If you tell someone your problems are far worse than theirs. (Do you know their history? How do you know?) If you allude that their problems are inconsequencial because they belong to the 'privelaged' gender. (How do you know? Have you experienced being a woman?) Really- don't expect women in particular to offer you pity. You don't insult/ belittle someone and then expect them to be kind, sympathetic and nurturing towards you! You've already put them on the defensive.

If you just want to talk with other guys that share your point of view- then, maybe you'll have more luck. There are megathreads sometimes desigated for specific groups of people. Still- become too misogynistic and that may still upset some.

Personally, I think incels have some just cause to feel unhappy. It's like any group that feels hard done by though. There likely is a reason for the way they feel. What makes them unappealing is when they copy and paste that anger on all women. Plus, they don't always even acknowledge that they have such a strong bias because they've only experienced their life.

Being female- I'm likely to side with women who've been opressed but I'm willing to admit that's because I'm female myself! I have a skewed perspective on things. I don't know what it's like to be a short, poor, unattractive man in this world (not assuming you are but, that's a common thing incels comment about.) I do know what it's like to be an annatractive female who hates having periods. ALL women don't have 'pretty privelage'.

I would have considered myself a femcel at one point. I'm ashamed to say that does include a certain level of mistrust and resentment towards men. I can likely justify that to myself just the same way you can. I've known some absolute bastards that cheated on their partners, lied to get sex, raped their wives, likely left women pregnant and didn't bother with child support, only go for women with 0% body fat (impossible I imagine?) I've also known women cheat on their husbands, hen peck them, abuse them. It's not right to generalize when it comes to either gender but it's natural that those who have gone through bad experiences or witnessed them will be suspicious. We're only looking out for our own safety- makes sense.

What I truly don't understand with some incels though, is that they don't seem to acknowledge that perhaps a major reason women reject them is because they vilify, resent and hate women! Why would anyone want to be with someone who directs so much anger towards them?

If all you want is a battle of the sexes though. For everyone to agree that men have it worse- that's very unlikely to happen. I actually wish in a way it was possible for us all to be able to transition for say, 6 months, a year- to know for sure. We don't get to choose though. We might end up in a 'poor specimen' of that gender in a bad location.

Would you fancy being a woman in Lesotho for instance? 86% chance you'll experience gender based violence. A higher female suicide rate than men:

Lesotho: The small African country with the world’s highest suicide rate - BBC News

A look at Lesotho, where more people take their own lives than anywhere else in the world.

www.bbc.co.uk

Bear in mind that when you're talking to people, you're not talking to the whole female race. You're talking to an individual woman. You have no way of knowing her life has been so much easier than yours.

But, in any case, I think living as a different gender would be insightful. With race too to find out just how bad racism is. Maybe we'd all start being kinder to one another! Would you do it? Turn female for a stint? Your high heels, underwired bra and tampons await! May as well go further with the feminist rant though- let's shave your salary by 16% to bring you in line with the average. (Women globally on average earn 16% less than men.) Who knows though? Maybe you'd be a great woman, breeze through. Ever thought about transitioning if you truly think it would make things so much easier for you? But then, do you kind of hate women?

 

[duck2k3]

Mn r also choosng thse 69% of womn wh/ divorcd thm

women are the selectors dude

I do know what it's like to be an annatractive female

you still have more options than any male on this forum, whether you consider those men as actual options is another question.

I've known some absolute bastards that cheated on their partners,

the women CHOSE them

Would you fancy being a woman in Lesotho for instance?

most women don't live there... why mention this?

Have you experienced being a woman?

oh no! being a woman!? where it's pretty much impossible to fail in life? I could be a waitress or clean toilets for a living and still have men willing to marry me, all I gotta do is stay in shape and wear makeup. I have zero pressures to make any meaningful income and I will always know that there will be many men willing to get with me.

Women globally on average earn 16% less than men.

because women work less than men. Do you seriously think any company is allowed to pay women less simply because they're women? really? you know what you made me remember why I never indulged in any discussions/debates with women, it's very frustrating talking to people this ignorant.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I'm an incel and I personally think the only reason we should be allowed to stay here is so that we can all eventually do the world a favor and kill ourselves without making it anyone else's problem or by annoying everyone with our mere existence.

 

[derpyderpins]

dude you're on a suicide forum

Starting with this. I was on the original sanctioned suicide subreddit almost a decade ago now. I got married this year. I still have issues with depression, and I like and relate to people in this community. It's my anonymous outlet.

Do you really think it is contradictory to be in a happy relationship and still have suicidal thoughts? If life were only about relationships, sure, I could see that, but it's not.

Let's start somewhere. 70-80% of divorces are initiated by women (women choose these men mostly btw), 80% of prisoners are fatherless, nobody puts any responsibility on the mother for choosing the father in the first place but put all the blame on the father for leaving. This is because women don't choose men based on how good of a father they will be but what they can do for the woman financially and sexually. Women then blame the actions of sexually active men onto incels, this is called the apex fallacy. The men who have zero experience with women have to pick up after other men's leftovers, I can't think of a more pathetic existence. Being single/loveless all your life and then having to commit to a woman who has slept with multiple men.

Men pursue, women choose. I agree that's the general rule, and part of the ugly compounding cycle I mentioned to Dot. As men get more desperate, women become more cautious, women being more cautious makes men more hesitant to approach, men generally being the pursuers means less approaching = less matching, less matching means men become more desperate, and we're back to the top.

So we have two statistics here where - I'll use your numbers - we're talking about 80%. Pareto would be pleased! We're still talking about 20% not being part of the issue. This is where generalizing and applying the macro to the micro is unproductive.

Can I ask why your anger is only at the women and not the apex men? The idea seems to be that women are screwing everything up by acting in short-term self interest rather than thinking about both the long term and their overall effect on the dating market. What about the men who leave women as "leftovers"? Surely they should see the problem they are causing, and wait until they find one good partner and only that partner. It strikes me that these apex men each do the equivilent damage of many many individual women in this way.

Aren't the apex men - accepting your theory of hypergamy, that women are the ones who primarily shoot for people out of their league - leading the women on and deceiving them into believing they are of equal level?

Who said men only value looks?

Well we're greatly oversimplifying in general, but the only things they value that have been mentioned are looks and number of past partners.

Both genders do, it's literally our way of detecting good genetics, this shit is based off evolution. I don;t get what you're saying here, are you saying women don't care about looks? that is a very absurd statement.

No, of course women care about looks. I'm right there with you. But, if women care about Looks, say 50%, and 25% height and 25% money (obviusly pulling these out of my ass as an example) and men care about looks 75% and other factors 25%, then the amount that looks matter is overleveraged in one direction. That's my point.

And men, you're forgetting how this literally causes broken homes. Broken homes then causes a multitude of issues. A woman's sexual history can cause broken homes.

Broken homes and the breakdown of families are a big problem. There's no single larger indicator of success than having both your mom and dad in the house.

The market determines the value/level, not me. The dating market values looks first, for men and women. Men are just more honest about their preferences.

Most women, I mean like pretty much all of them.

Where are our statistics here? Who says men are more honest about their preferences? I'm genuinely curious here, because it strikes me that a woman saying she wants a man over a certain height is brutally honest.

And then what percent of women care about height and to what extent? On one hand, I do think height is way overblown by some women, but I also think having some preference is reasonable.

They struggle to get the men they want.

Your point here being that the men they struggle to get are wrong in some way. We've established that incels do have at least some preferences: "[e]very single incel I've spoken to wants a woman on their level." Looksmatching. They want someone on their level in looks, disregarding other factors.

Do you think these women are wrong about the men they want, or that they should settle for men that they don't want?

Because I feel sympathy for everyone who thinks they're trapped by dating someone who looksmatches with them, men and women. Of course there is a desire in all of us to be with someone really beautiful.

 

[duck2k3]

ut, if women care about Looks,

women care about looks more, this is really simple. Most men would fuck most women but most women wouldn't fuck most men. Women have to be more selective with looks as they are going to be pregnant for 9 months and so they want to be picky with choosing good genetics.

They want someone on their level in looks, disregarding other factors.

genes/looks are everything, it's how we judge people, it's how we choose partners, lookism plays a huge role in our daily lives.

 

[derpyderpins]

women care about looks more, this is really simple. Most men would fuck most women but most women wouldn't fuck most men. Women have to be more selective with looks as they are going to be pregnant for 9 months and so they want to be picky with choosing good genetics.


genes/looks are everything, it's how we judge people, it's how we choose partners, lookism plays a huge role in our daily lives.

Well your assertions are contradictory. I'm trying to work with what you have established.

You stated that incels want to looksmatch, meaning they only want a partner equal in looks or greater.

You stated women have a spectrum involving height, money, and looks.

Then you say women care about looks more than men. Doesn't add up.

 

[duck2k3]

Do you think these women are wrong about the men they want, or that they should settle for men that they don't want?

If I chase women out of my league and proceed to get used by those sa mewomen, should the next girl I get with have to deal with my past relationship trauma? you'd say no immediately.

woman saying she wants a man over a certain height is brutally honest

if you ask women what their preferences are they will say "a caring, nice guy" and won't even mention looks/height

Looks, say 50%, and 25% height

looks and height are the same, it's your appearance/genetics

they only want a partner equal in looks or greater.

only? where did i say that?

You stated women have a spectrum involving height, money, and looks.

yes, where looks is number 1

 

[derpyderpins]

If I chase women out of my league and proceed to get used by those sa mewomen, should the next girl I get with have to deal with my past relationship trauma? you'd say no immediately.

? We all have to deal with our partner's issues, weaknesses, and trauma. My wife has to deal with the trauma I have from a girl who used me. Led me along for months when I was limerent, used me for a night, then cut me off.

if you ask women what their preferences are they will say "a caring, nice guy" and won't even mention looks/height

See again we're talking about "women" as a monolith. I'm not super in tuned with social media but I know there are women who state height preferences and men who complain about it.

I also know not good looking guys who aren't rich who are with better looking women, so there are at least some girls who do want caring nice guys (or another personality quality.)

looks and height are the same, it's your appearance/genetics

Sure but money/income is also a factor, right?

only? where did i say that?

"Every single incel I've spoken to wants a woman on their level." You didn't say "or lower", because that would be dumb. No reason for you to make that statement about their standards unless you are calling it a minimum standard.

 

[duck2k3]

I also know not good looking guys who aren't rich who are with better looking women, so there are at least some girls who do want caring nice guys

you don't know the quality of those relationships, I also know some guys who walk out the casino with more money.

make that statement about their standards unless you are calling it a minimum standard

I mentioned looks as their standard because that's what women look for, looks/good genetics. Incels reciprocate the same standards because they have no other choice.

 

[duck2k3]

Sure but money/income is also a factor, right?

If a woman is "attracted" to you because you have money then you are nothing but a walking ATM. Money is not true attraction.

 

[Hvergelmir]

I just want to find like-minded individuals, that's all.

If you're looking for likeminded individuals as in other incels, your best bet is an incel forum.
If you're struggling with something and want the perspective of other groups, this might be a much better place.

If you truly want to give up because your circumstances are too bad to work with, this place have the information on how to end things.
If you don't want to give up, this place has something of a support network to help.

When "incel" is mentioned I associate that with a desire to spread a sex-based isolationist culture of shared misery. This place is the opposite in that regard. Most of us want to eliminate misery, one way or another.

The narrower and more specific you can keep a thread, the more tolerant and rational answers you'll get. This thread is already spiraling out of control, debating several emotionally loaded topics in parallell.

 

[Dot]

oh no! being a woman!? where it's pretty much impossible to fail in life?

If u r goin2 sy tht on frum of suicdl womn thn SaSu = nt th/ plce fr u

No1 hs claimd tht u d/ nt suffr & thre mght b aspcts of th/ d8tng markt whch wrk agnst u bt all ur commnts hve bn abt hw womn hve evrythng & tht evry1 = thr fault & tht mn hve 0 contrl or 0 accountblty fr n.ethng in thr lves

U hve nt attmptd t/ acknwldge 1 factr whch cn affct womn or hve dismssd thm all cmpletly & u r nt dscussng thngs in gd faith

No1 nds 2 prve n.ethng els 2 u & u cn eithr hve sme propr convrsatns wth womn & try 2 lern frm thm or u cn kp makng men th/ only victms of th/ wrld & all womn th/ villns & gt urslf bannd

 

[duck2k3]

If u r goin2 sy tht on frum of suicdl womn thn SaSu = nt th/ plce fr u

just stop replying to me, reading your text is annoying

 

[Forever Sleep]

women are the selectors dude

you still have more options than any male on this forum, whether you consider those men as actual options is another question.

the women CHOSE them

most women don't live there... why mention this?

oh no! being a woman!? where it's pretty much impossible to fail in life? I could be a waitress or clean toilets for a living and still have men willing to marry me, all I gotta do is stay in shape and wear makeup. I have zero pressures to make any meaningful income and I will always know that there will be many men willing to get with me.

because women work less than men. Do you seriously think any company is allowed to pay women less simply because they're women? really? you know what you made me remember why I never indulged in any discussions/debates with women, it's very frustrating talking to people this ignorant.

You know what? Fair enough. All I'm going to do is get aggressive back and no one wins. You won't change your opinion- that's clear. I just wonder how well you think these feelings serve you in life? Do they motivate you to change the things you can change about yourself to get the things you want? Do they make you appealing to others? Maybe other incels. But, fine. If that serves you best- go for it.

 

[derpyderpins]

If a woman is "attracted" to you because you have money then you are nothing but a walking ATM. Money is not true attraction.

You get that your last few responses are you arguing against things you have said, right? I'm just waiting for you to settle on something.

Women value looks more (still no evidence for that) => but women have a spectrum that includes things other than looks => but now the other things are invalid, and I still don't have anything men value besides looks and lack of partners.

all of these semantic arguments being used to attempt to justify sweeping, macro, generalist statements. It's not tennable, and it's not good for you.

This is why I suggest stopping this discussion of "why" the dating scene is the way it is and move on to what you intend to do in this world.

you don't know the quality of those relationships, I also know some guys who walk out the casino with more money.

Well this is the first introduction of "quality" of a relationship as a factor. The first guy who popped into mind has been married for many years and is a close friend, although it's true I don't have cameras in their bedroom to make sure the relationship qualifies for you.

One problem with black-and-white thinking is that it's very hard to defend and very easy to argue against. I suggest allowing for exceptions to your rules.

I mentioned looks as their standard because that's what women look for, looks/good genetics. Incels reciprocate the same standards because they have no other choice.

? Incels have no choice but to demand someone of equal looks? That dont make no sense to me.

 

[Dot]

Thy gt bannd

 

[me_when_:D]

Thy gt bannd

Incels trying not to destroy their own public image challenge (impossible)

 

[Dot]

Incels trying not to destroy their own public image challenge (impossible)

= frstr8tng bcse thre r incls on SaSu wh/ r jst fne s/ am opn t/ dialgue wth n.e1 wh/ opn t/ propr dscussn

= wld b nce fr thm 2 nt b in sch a radclisd Nvirnmnt bt sme of thm jst wn2 psh thr perspctve & nt b opn t/ n.e.thng els

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Generally speaking, most women have similar standards. Most women want a rich, tall, high status, handsome man. It's a spectrum, if he is not rich then he has to earn x income, if he is not tall then must be at least x height and so on.

Tell me you've never spoken to a woman before without telling me that you've never spoken to a woman before.

You've been on this site for two days and you are already making yourself look bad.

 

[attheend13]

Yeah this is where it gets tricky. If I mention statistics or any data that may paint women in a bad light then I'd be considered a misogynist, It's alright though I figured I wouldn't be able to speak about those things here. If I mentioned how men suffer more and show the male vs female suicide rate then I'd be banned in an instant lol.

Well men don't suffer more so it's simply a false statement. And deeply offensive actually.

 

[derpyderpins]

Thy gt bannd

Honestly, I don't agree with this. I think I feel similarly to how you felt in the NPD thread the other day. He was being a dick but he's also right that this is what pushes people who could improve their outlook to the incel forums where that will never ever happen. Those places just destroy any soul you have left.

His frustration was real, even if the conclusions where dumb.

 

[Life_and_Death]

Honestly, I don't agree with this. I think I feel similarly to how you felt in the NPD thread the other day. He was being a dick but he's also right that this is what pushes people who could improve their outlook to the incel forums where that will never ever happen. Those places just destroy any soul you have left.

His frustration was real, even if the conclusions where dumb.

his pain and whatnot might be, however can we question the way he presented himself, while calling anyone but specifically a mod "it" and "annoying".
theres having issues and then pushing issues. personally, the behaviour was uncalled for

 

[Chinaski]

INCEL: hey I'm an incel, am i welcome here

NUMEROUS RESPONSES: sure, i mean, loneliness is bad, just don't be a misogynistic prick i guess

INCEL: cool! Thanks! Here are thirty posts containing some utterly rank misogyny

 

[Life_and_Death]

INCEL: hey I'm an incel, am i welcome here

NUMEROUS RESPONSES: sure, i mean, loneliness is bad, just don't be a misogynistic prick i guess

INCEL: cool! Thanks! Here are thirty posts containing some utterly rank misogyny

you forgot a line

incel: i dont understand why youre mad at me/hate me

 

[derpyderpins]

his pain and whatnot might be, however can we question the way he presented himself, while calling anyone but specifically a mod "it" and "annoying".
theres having issues and then pushing issues. personally, the behaviour was uncalled for

Yeah, I agree. It was bad behavior, but he was (as far as I saw) keeping it to his own thread, and essentially everyone was trying to get him to pull it back. I think not allowing him in chat, limiting his posting to his own threads, and a warning would be more appropriate than a straight ban.

 

[Life_and_Death]

Yeah, I agree. It was bad behavior, but he was (as far as I saw) keeping it to his own thread, and essentially everyone was trying to get him to pull it back. I think not allowing him in chat, limiting his posting to his own threads, and a warning would be more appropriate than a straight ban.

ok, thats a good point. no disgreements there, but he didnt seem like he had any interest to "pull it back"

and like (i think it was dot) said, theres more than just incels here. you (the mods) need to look out for the mental health of everyone
its almost like some incels cant distinguish "perceived fact" from misogyny

 

[derpyderpins]

ok, thats a good point. no disgreements there, but he didnt seem like he had any interest to "pull it back"

and like (i think it was dot) said, theres more than just incels here. you (the mods) need to look out for the mental health of everyone

I hear you. That's why I disagree but I'm not really upset. Mods have tough decisions to make all the time.

He wasn't going to pull it back anytime soon. But maybe tomorrow, or after getting it out of his system a while longer. Or maybe not. But I'd have liked to continue the dialogue to give him a chance.

 

[me_when_:D]

Honestly, I don't agree with this. I think I feel similarly to how you felt in the NPD thread the other day. He was being a dick but he's also right that this is what pushes people who could improve their outlook to the incel forums where that will never ever happen. Those places just destroy any soul you have left.

His frustration was real, even if the conclusions where dumb.

Whose job is it to enlighten them?
It puts a strain on this community.
I have been there, I was in redpill too. All this is just chronically online lonely people listening to crypto schizo lifters, these influencers will shit their own reputation and it's not hard to notice by that point that the ideology is full of shit.

I was listening to Jordan Peterson when he had sane takes, then he got into gender war ans I followed, but then he fucking started to go schizo with chinese milking men for sperm twits

 

[Life_and_Death]

I hear you. That's why I disagree but I'm not really upset. Mods have tough decisions to make all the time.

He wasn't going to pull it back anytime soon. But maybe tomorrow, or after getting it out of his system a while longer. Or maybe not. But I'd have liked to continue the dialogue to give him a chance.

you have a good heart. i might be coming from a biased place being a female with an array of those types of issues, but i couldnt do it in this case.