Do you believe in Determinism?

[PlannedforPeru]

For those who don't know, Determinism is the philosophical view that all events in the universe, including human decisions and actions, are causally inevitable.

As the title says, do you believe in it and to what degree? I'm excluding a maybe, unsure, or in the middle answer because I've seen a lot of people choose that option and would suspect no different here. If you do want to expand on the nuance or your own beliefs, I'd love to see discussion of it in a reply.

Posted in the suicide discussion, as I want to see the results of this specific demographic.

 

[CantDoIt]

Kind of ? When I look back at my life and the poor decisions that led me to where I am today, I don't feel totally "in control." I know I made those decisions, but I was also put in a position in which those things would easily happen to me and was given biology / a brain in which those things would happen and those decisions would be made. If I had the ability to go back in time and change those decisions I would, but at the time those were just things I "did."

Here is the crazy part:
When I hear about NDEs, they say we choose our lives ahead of time. They say there is free will but people also choose lives to play a role. So free will is somewhat limited if you believe in this sort of thing, which I'm not sure if I do. If you choose a life in which you know you may have difficulty than free will is limited and the life may have been chosen to experience certain adversity. Maybe your choices could have been different but you were set up to easily make the wrong ones in order to learn a lesson. This second part is purely supernatural/assuming people with near death experiences are correct.

 

[cosmic-realism]

Hinduism itself is all about determinism.Everything is pre-planned.You have no power.You are God's puppet.
You're misery is your past life karma and all that.To be honest,that just makes people complacent.Self-pity overrides the need for justice.


I didn't even ask to be a puppet.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

I believe in causlity and that there are laws of nature. I use the word believe in terms of "working hypothesis". Even if there is pure coincidence in the quantum world, there could not be a free will. I even daubt, that free will is the result of emergence. My ideas and stimuli come out of the blue, or the unconscious, as it is called today. But though I believe that free will and determinism is an illusion I act as if I had a free will, otherwise it is impossible to live.

 

[angelicat]

I believe that theoretically everything is determined but in practice it's not. For example the rolling of a dice, in theory you could take the angle it was thrown from and other outside factors like the wind or table it lands on and calculate those factors in order to know what side it lands on, before it lands on any side. But in practice you cannot calculate all that in seconds.
Also if you implemented determinism in the real world it would cause a lot of problems, for example murderes or robbers could defend themselves that they were determined to do that due to the laws of nature and cannot be held accountable for the crimes they committed.

 

[PlannedforPeru]

I believe that theoretically everything is determined but in practice it's not. For example the rolling of a dice, in theory you could take the angle it was thrown from and other outside factors like the wind or table it lands on and calculate those factors in order to know what side it lands on, before it lands on any side. But in practice you cannot calculate all that in seconds.
Also if you implemented determinism in the real world it would cause a lot of problems, for example murderes or robbers could defend themselves that they were determined to do that due to the laws of nature and cannot be held accountable for the crimes they committed.

I get what you mean on a thematic level in your response, but don't you think that there is a scenario in which determinism can be acknowledged without it being weaponized as an excuse to justify bad behaviors (if it isn't already)? I think to some extent it's already showcased in insanity pleas.

Regardless of the behavior being a result of truly independent choice or an unfortunate combination of genetic predisposition and environmental conditions that allowed that to occur, the being is not absolved from necessary steps taken to ensure public safety; Either way, it could be framed as reflection time-out for the free-willed mind or enough time in different conditions to prevent a similar occurrence in the future to the determined body.

I don't mean to pick apart your response or anything, I just found it interesting and was curious about your thoughts.

 

[MatrixPrisoner]

All I believe in is random arrangement of atoms. And we all unfortunately are composed of a bad arrangement of low-quality atoms.

 

[Unspoken7612]

I believe both in determinism and free will. I was recently convinced of the compatibilist position.

 

[deadstillwalking]

I believe both in determinism and free will. I was recently convinced of the compatibilist position.

Hey, could you explain compatibilism and why you believe it? Because if I remember correctly, even Sapolsky stated in his book that compatibilism is bs
I'm a hard determinist since my early teens, I just didn't know it was an actual philosophy cuz until I turned 17 I had THE WHOLE concept of determinism in my head. I grew up as a Christian but as soon as I started asking myself deterministic questions my faith weakened drastically till it was completely destroyed when I learned about determinism (before that happened I thought I'd been just delusional so finding out that plenty of other people think the same put the nail on the coffin). I believe that we are 100% controlled by outside forces and that there is no room for free will. Do I believe that criminals should be held accountable for their crimes? Yes. I don't see them being sentenced as a form of "punishment" but more like a lesson, after all prison time serves as a rehabilitation that gives you space to reflect on your actions. Either way, if someone commits a crime it means that their guilt or fear of judgement were overshadowed by other motives. So our job would be to prevent that from happening by strengthening the motives NOT to commit crimes again, which of course would take form of a punishment. That's the way it is, the world is cruel. But fear not, humanity is far from ready to accept the absence of free will so people will still be judged and hated over decisions they were forced to make, yikes. I hope I make sense cuz it's night-time and I'm tired af so I'm not aware of anything that sounds straight up dogshit but I hope I unlocked a new point of view for you.

 

[Hvergelmir]

Hey, could you explain compatibilism and why you believe it? Because if I remember correctly, even Sapolsky stated in his book that compatibilism is bs

To me determinism and free will are on completely different abstraction levels.

Free will is a high level concept, while determinism is about cause and effect, energy and matter.
I believe that what we perceive as free will is a result of determinism. I still think "free will" is a good high level abstraction, helping us make sense of our surrounding.

Let's assume that determinism is false, though. Let's assume that the universe is governed by quantum level uncertainty principles: true randomness.
Does free will exist then? Or is it just randomness?

When you pitch determinism against free will, you're really asking if free will is a fundamental building block of the universe.
To me free will is very real, even if it's fuzzy and abstract, and governed by deeper mechanics (deterministic or otherwise).

 

[Unspoken7612]

Hey, could you explain compatibilism and why you believe it?

I think the other responder has made the case I would fairly convincingly. Our decisions are the result of natural processes, but it nonetheless remains that we have a degree of will. We make decisions. Sure, we might have always made the same decision, but it is nonetheless a decision.

Now, one important thing to bear in mind is that I am an atheist. I recognise that determinism, even a compatibilist determinism, is difficult to reconcile with an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient creator god who knows what we will do before creating us but still punishes us for our actions. But remove the deity with foreknowledge and the nature of will looks different to me.

 

[eeah]

i dont know if the universe is deterministic but either way i dont believe in free will. its either deterministic or has some degree of randomness but either way i dont think people have free will

 

[Darkover]

All I believe in is random arrangement of atoms. And we all unfortunately are composed of a bad arrangement of low-quality atoms.

really there should be away of making atoms belong to other atoms so they never break apart this way teeth would never decay making atoms belong to an intelligent machine so they never break down what ever created the universe did a poor job really

 

[cohomology]

I am not a determinist for basically the same reason why I'm not religious. I just think determinism is a very strong almost religious claim with very little proof for it.

 

[angelicat]

Of course it can be acknowledged without it being weaponized, as you've said in insanity please as an example. What i meant is that this "excuse" should not get over used and is actually being used by people who commit these crimes due to their unfortunate past which lead them to this. But not everyone commits crimes due to what happened to them, most people just do it because we are human beings who only do stuff for our own personal gain and nothing else.
We sadly live in a selfish world where this would be over used by those who don't deserve it and people who actually suffer from illnesses that lead them to this would be overlooked.
I hope I understood your response correctly and that you get what I mean (English isn't my first language, so i sometimes have difficulty understanding stuff and expressing myself). Also don't worry about picking apart my response, if i would be that sensitive to other people commenting about my thoughts I wouldn't comment on here anyway :)

I get what you mean on a thematic level in your response, but don't you think that there is a scenario in which determinism can be acknowledged without it being weaponized as an excuse to justify bad behaviors (if it isn't already)? I think to some extent it's already showcased in insanity pleas.

Regardless of the behavior being a result of truly independent choice or an unfortunate combination of genetic predisposition and environmental conditions that allowed that to occur, the being is not absolved from necessary steps taken to ensure public safety; Either way, it could be framed as reflection time-out for the free-willed mind or enough time in different conditions to prevent a similar occurrence in the future to the determined body.

I don't mean to pick apart your response or anything, I just found it interesting and was curious about your thoughts.

 

[ZeroM24]

I think that humanity is definetely determined to destroy each other in every way possible. And that will never change.

 

[biasedregret]

Yes, I'm a hard determinist.

 

[lookup]

determinism is true if you believe that all events are causally dependent on something else. Perhaps one of the few things we are uncertain isn't deterministic is the behavior of subatomic particles with the Copenhagen interpretation etc

 

[Seele]

I can feel the impact of this perspective when looking at the fact that I didn't even choose to be born. My birth was the result of the union of my parents, and with it, I carried a series of determinants: not only physical, but also psychological and even predispositions to mental illnesses, which were "decided" before I was even aware of myself. Other people's choices created a being that, ironically, did not ask to exist.

I believe in determinism, not completely, there are things that have already been determined as I said before, but others I have the illusion of choosing, like for example I can eat at a Japanese restaurant, but only the dishes they offer, I have the choice, but limited by the menu.

 

[neonzebra]

I don't think that free will is possible.

 

[Leiot]

Hari Seldon believed in determinism in Asimov's Foundation Trilogy. Even there he failed to predict certain events. There are general things that are predictable - societies rise, prosper and fall, greed, lust for power; that sort of thing. But as for determining individual lives, no.

 

[(in)sane]

For me this isn't even a question of philosophy, but a fact. Every decision we make is decided by our past and DNA. You don't choose your DNA, neither do you choose the first things that surround you. If you were someone else, you'd live the exact same life as they would, because you'd be them. So everything you do is inevitable, therefore free will is an illusion.

 

[Leiot]

For me this isn't even a question of philosophy, but a fact. Every decision we make is decided by our past and DNA. You don't choose your DNA, neither do you choose the first things that surround you. If you were someone else, you'd live the exact same life as they would, because you'd be them. So everything you do is inevitable, therefore free will is an illusion.

I disagree. The decisions we made were made by that computer that is our brain. It made decisions based on the inputs that were available at the time and our history. But unlike a computer, we can change our programming. Meditation, investigating religion and/or philosophy, and studying history can change our view of the past, which can change our view of the future.

 

[(in)sane]

For me this isn't even a question of philosophy, but a fact. Every decision we make is decided by our past and DNA. You don't choose your DNA, neither do you choose the first things that surround you. If you were someone else, you'd live the exact same life as they would, because you'd be them. So everything you do is inevitable, therefore free will

I disagree. The decisions we made were made by that computer that is our brain. It made decisions based on the inputs that were available at the time and our history. But unlike a computer, we can change our programming. Meditation, investigating religion and/or philosophy, and studying history can change our view of the past, which can change our view of the future.

The reason people get into religion, meditation, philosophy, etc. Is also a product of everything predetermined. I'm religious because I was raised religious, I'm unto philosophy because I heard about it and my brain was wired to be interested, I never tried meditation because my mother said it's connected to the devil. I could try it now to try and have free will but I'd only be doing so because you told me. Do you get what I mean? Everything that happens to us from the moment we are born determines our next steps. The only additional factor is DNA.

 

[Groundhog_Day]

I disagree. The decisions we made were made by that computer that is our brain. It made decisions based on the inputs that were available at the time and our history. But unlike a computer, we can change our programming. Meditation, investigating religion and/or philosophy, and studying history can change our view of the past, which can change our view of the future.

The illusion of free will and the self are one and the same. There is only a brain governed by the laws of physics, like everything else. There is no 'i' who has this brain, separate from it, and able to change it's programming from a distance.

 

[avalokitesvara]

I believe in a Spinozan universe. Everything that can possibly exist, does. This means there are no other options for how things are and what happens. Everything is "needful" in its being and cannot be otherwise. If there were other options that would mean there would be something other than reality, which is impossible. There is only one reality, one universe, one god/essence which is the infinite expression of itself in every possible form. Therefore everything that happens has to happen, which negates individual free will. This strongly agrees with concepts of Buddha nature, dharma and karma which I also believe in. (Karma is misunderstood as punishment/reward. What it actually means is the unchangeable conditions of your existence based on past events such as what country you are born into, your family, etc).

This is also supported by neuroscience. My sense of possessing a self, of having volition, of freedom of will, of ownership of my body and ownership of my actions, are observable brain-states that can be isolated and manipulated. The concept of freedom and guilt completely fall apart when you look into this. However it seems to be very important on a societal and individual level that we believe we are selves, that we have agency, and freedom of choice. I don't think that'll go away, it's too fundamental. It's pretty funny.

 

[Groundhog_Day]

However it seems to be very important on a societal and individual level that we believe we are selves, that we have agency, and freedom of choice. I don't think that'll go away, it's too fundamental. It's pretty funny.

It's only important due to the illusion and obsession with self. We are just a body with a brain, inseperable from the physical universe. There is no self in addition that has a body, or has a brain. If this was accepted and taught more widely, it would lead to more understanding and less judgement.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Not really. I think there are various paths open to us and varying probabilities of a person taking each one. But no, I don't particularly like the idea that no one has power over their actions. I think it goes too far to excuse people of really heinous acts like murder, rape, child molesting. Maybe there are certain factors that make a person more prone to do those things but ultimately, we know they're wrong and yet, some will still choose to do them.

Honestly, I think it's lazy to some extent too. As in- everyone who's successful had it easy (unlikely) and, everyone who failed was going to fail regardless of what they did. I think it takes power away from people to just decide absolutely everything is out of their hands- so, why should they even bother? I feel like the probability is- if they don't bother then things almost definitely won't change. That's not to say trying guarantees success but, it gives us a fighting chance. It's a bit like someone complaining they haven't won the lottery when they haven't bought a ticket.

That said- I absolutely agree that our choices in life are still limited. We are limited by our genes, health, upbringing, education, finanancial status, appearance, all sorts. I don't think people are necessarily absolutely destined to make the choices they do because of that though.

But then, I get myself tied up in knots thinking about it sometimes. Let's go for an extreme example. Two people have a near identicle experience in life. One turns criminal while the other doesn't. But why? Surely that must happen. What is it that switches in one of their brains to think for example- it's ok for me to steal from/ rape/ kill this other person? Did it come from a slightly different experience in their life? I suppose our actions do have to come from somewhere. Cause and effect and all that. Still, I think there must be plenty of people who feel tempted to do bad things but, they stop themselves. Is it because they have more empathy or a stronger moral compass? I suppose how much control we have over ourselves might be predetermined by genes and upbringing.

I know you wanted a yes or no answer but, it's actually quite hard to pin down when you think about it.

 

[isolatedl111]

Interesting

 

[L'absent]

I firmly believe that we are determined by the circumstances we endure. I don't believe in free will and therefore I consider the law a grave injustice. The way things are done and the way we are made, it is impossible to limit the damage without abusing, deceiving and carrying out acts of violence against other people who are not guilty of their own acts. The mechanism is a rotten structure and there is nothing we can do about it. We are stupid beings who are not even masters in their own house. Isn't that funny? I hope to die soon...I'm disgusted by everything.