Do you believe in Determinism?

[Valhala]

Everything is causally connected by the law of cause and effect. Causa finalis (Aristotle). Only the limitation of our perceptive possibilities in the sense that we can comprehensively see the processes from phenomena at the quantum level through electrical discharges of neurotransmitters in the brain to movement at the level of the macrocosm creates the illusion of so-called "free will". The individual timelines on which we exist are in themselves immutable, but there is the possibility of moving from one timeline to another, which could be colloquially explained not as "change" but as "replacement". personal destinies.

 

[notreallybored]

I believe both in determinism and free will. I was recently convinced of the compatibilist position.

ב''ה,

I really don't want to wade into this one but this is probably the mainstream Rabbinical / Chassidic Judaism position and the perspective much of Torah is written from (though that is as simple as people having free will and G-d always having power over that) so you're in good company.

For whoever mentioned Spinoza, his hot takes are celebrated now but were scandalous in his actual lifetime, though what actually gets taught in Jewish communities can be a deep matter of tribal politics and the US community just got past a decade of Harry Potter because that was the national approach to literacy for a while.

 

[Warlord's Pulse]

Hari Seldon believed in determinism in Asimov's Foundation Trilogy. Even there he failed to predict certain events. There are general things that are predictable - societies rise, prosper and fall, greed, lust for power; that sort of thing. But as for determining individual lives, no.

That's a good point

Determinism is a very good and intuitive way to know what to expect about certain groups, but not a person

Approaching a group of nerdy, middle class high schoolers is not the same thing as approaching a single member of said group

 

[Unspoken7612]

ב''ה,

I really don't want to wade into this one but this is probably the mainstream Rabbinical / Chassidic Judaism position and the perspective much of Torah is written from (though that is as simple as people having free will and G-d always having power over that) so you're in good company.

For whoever mentioned Spinoza, his hot takes are celebrated now but were scandalous in his actual lifetime, though what actually gets taught in Jewish communities can be a deep matter of tribal politics and the US community just got past a decade of Harry Potter because that was the national approach to literacy for a while.

As a materialist, my understanding would be very different to Rabbinical Judaism.

If I've understood correctly, you're saying that the position is "humans have free will, but G-d knows our decisions, could intervene to change our minds, and chooses not to [out of respect for our autonomy]"?
If so, that seems pretty similar to most mainstream Christian perspectives too, with the obvious exception of Calvinism. But to be honest, the introduction of a deity instantly changes the picture, in my view.

My personal perspective is "my will is determined by material processes beyond my control, but remains my will". It feels different to me if you introduce a deity who designed me and knows everything I will ever do.

Probably if I thought about it some more I could reconcile the idea of G-d with compatibilism, but it does throw up additional philosophical questions, and as a non-believer I'm not hugely inclined to engage with them at this juncture.

 

[notreallybored]

As a materialist, my understanding would be very different to Rabbinical Judaism.

If I've understood correctly, you're saying that the position is "humans have free will, but G-d knows our decisions, could intervene to change our minds, and chooses not to [out of respect for our autonomy]"?
If so, that seems pretty similar to most mainstream Christian perspectives too, with the obvious exception of Calvinism. But to be honest, the introduction of a deity instantly changes the picture, in my view.

My personal perspective is "my will is determined by material processes beyond my control, but remains my will". It feels different to me if you introduce a deity who designed me and knows everything I will ever do.

Probably if I thought about it some more I could reconcile the idea of G-d with compatibilism, but it does throw up additional philosophical questions, and as a non-believer I'm not hugely inclined to engage with them at this juncture.

ב''ה,

Been forever since I read any Calvin.

It's actually extremely not different philosophically or theosophically though. One wacky but apt perception in the more mystical side of Jewish thought is e.g. every atom has an angel (appendage of G-d) behind it keeping it in existence. Thus, whether it's just chemical physics soup or chemical physics soup with a sort of supernal fascism behind it, the perception of choice exists yet the reality is constrained.

 

[HenryHenriksen_6E]

Under normal conditions, I believe in it.

I believe that from the very beginning, we could predict the exact future by looking at the particles, atoms and whatnot, to determine a how events down the line unfold. Basically, one thing triggers another, which triggers another, and so on and so forth, which means you could calculate the what will happen. That, unless quantum mechanics and other abstract concepts are involved, which increases the randomness of everything.

However, if humanity were to build a machine or an AI that could analyze and observe the path of all things in a way that could predict the future, we could use this example: What if you asked it: "How many fingers will I hold up in the future?" It'll math out everything from the interactions in your brain to the surroundings that could influence you, before it gives you the answer. What if you contradict that answer, even when the AI calculated that you would follow that specific path? It is impossible to have it predict the future, tell you the future, and be correct if you want to go against it. Therefore, the concept feels rather uncertain when you can create these types of paradoxes.