FIRST EVER SN DOCUMENTATION

[Nemeshisu]

Thank you very much for documenting it. It must have been very difficult for you. Both you and @Moonicide must have been very brave. I am glad that you honored last wish of your friend. I hope you are doing okay now, Lotus

 

[Despondent]

I'm happy Moonie didn't feel a lot of pain ❤ I'm going to miss Moonie though :/ It was kind of sad reading the SN process when she had taken it (the gasping for air after). But I'm glad she can rest peacefully.

 

[TheOA]

Thank you for this informative and tender post.

Just...beautiful.

 

[UpandDownPrincess]

Sweet, sweet Moonie, I wish you peace I hope you are finding everything you need and want on the other side. Give Stan a big hug and kiss from all of us.

Lotus-

Please be gentle with yourself for a while. What you have done is very brave and very kind, to be there for her. It is likely that you will relive these minutes over the next few weeks. If you need us to talk you through anything, to listen, to comfort, we are here.

 

[HopeDiesLast]

This thread is such a double edged sword. Sure the information is useful but at what cost? I'm so sorry that you had to go through this but atleast you were there to provide some company.

Agreed. Undoubtedly, this experience will take a huge emotional toll on @Lotus1818 in the short term and long term. I cannot even imagine the full extent of it.

Hopefully she took measures to safeguard her identity so she won't get tangled up in the death investigation. And let's hope there won't be any legal ramifications or additional scrutiny for this forum...

 

[LMFAO FOCKERS]

.

This sounds unreasonable. People F aka make loud grunting noises, head banging noises and all types of other noises all the time in hotels for 30+ minutes on end without interruptions. And noone gives a F about it.

It always makes me chuckle how people overanalyze every little thing to the nth degree without considering real life situations. People arent mice...

Can we use our heads a bit please??

 

[a.n.kirillov]

I have also thought about providing at least audio documentation should I decide to go through with it. So if someone knows what they are doing privacy wise, maybe through discord/ Skype/ TeamSpeak/ whatever, and willing to set it up, this could be great for the community as a whole. We wouldn't need to rely solely on PNs sketchy information.

 

[enlightened_suicide]

Thank you for being so kind in fulfilling her final wishes, but I am also so sorry you had to go through this.

I know she's looking down happy that you put this out, so she could even be of help from the afterlife .

 

[Time]

Thanks for this & everything you've done for us & Moonicide. I hope you're feeling better, Lotus1818.

 

[nitrogen]

I'm very skeptical about the 2-day regimen. The half-life of metoclopramide in individuals with normal renal function is 5 to 6 hr. Meaning after 5-6 hrs, the concentration of meto in the body will be half of the starting dose. Approximately 85% of the radioactivity of an orally administered dose appears in the urine within 72 hr. The meto people take 48 or even 72 hrs prior is almost completely broken down or excreted by the time they drink SN. I'd do the stat dose. Stan also did the stat dose.
https://www.rxlist.com/reglan-drug.htm

I also doubt meto is the strongest antiemetic. I know in the USA, Zofran (ondansetron) is the first line of treatment for nausea and vomiting from food poisoning. If you think about it, drinking SN is a type of food poisoning - your stomach tries to empty what it identifies as poison. I've taken both meto and ondansetron. Meto mostly speeds up stomach emptying for me, whereas ondansetron really helps with nausea and vomiting. I think people should try several different antiemetics and see which one works best for them. Antiemetic doesn't seem to be "one size fits all."

I don't think "fasting for 8-hr" is one size fits all, either. 8 hr may be too long for some people. Stan actually hinted this in his SN guide. You need an empty stomach when taking SN. It usually only takes 4-5 hrs for the stomach to empty after a full meal - even takes less time under the prokinetic effect of meto. But of course, it varies depending on how much and what kind of food you ate. The problem of fasting for too long is that, the chemical balancing act of the "hunger hormones" can be thrown out of whack if you ignore your hunger signals for too long - that's why many people start to feel nauseated from an extended period of fasting. https://www.livescience.com/why-nauseous-when-hungry.html

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I'm very skeptical about the 2-day regimen. The half-life of metoclopramide in individuals with normal renal function is 5 to 6 hr. Meaning after 5-6 hrs, the concentration of meto in the body will be half of the starting dose. Approximately 85% of the radioactivity of an orally administered dose appears in the urine within 72 hr. The meto people take 48 or even 72 hrs prior is almost completely broken down by the time they drink SN. I'd do the stat dose. Stan also did the stat dose.
https://www.rxlist.com/reglan-drug.htm

I also doubt meto is the strongest antiemetic. I know in the USA, Zofran (ondansetron) is the first line of treatment for nausea and vomiting from food poisoning. If you think about it, drinking SN is a type of food poisoning - your stomach tries to empty what it identifies as poison. I've taken both meto and ondansetron. Meto mostly speeds up stomach emptying for me, whereas ondansetron really helps with nausea and vomiting. I think people should try several different antiemetics and see which one works best for them. Antiemetic doesn't seem to be "one size fits all."

I don't think "fasting for 8-hr" is one size fits all, either. 8 hr may be too long for some people. Stan actually hinted this in his SN guide. You need an empty stomach when taking SN. It usually only takes 4-5 hrs for the stomach to empty after a full meal, but of course, it varies depending on how much and what kind of food you ate. The problem of fasting for too long is that, the chemical balancing act of the "hunger hormones" can be thrown out of whack if you ignore your hunger signals for too long - that's why many people start to feel nauseated from an extended period of fasting. https://www.livescience.com/why-nauseous-when-hungry.html

I would at least do a 12 hour meto regimen because as you said meto does empty the stomach. But that's in my case cause I have problems with constipation and problems emptying my stomach.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

I shed a few tears while reading this. Thank you for posting this. ❤

 

[I want to end it]

She puked several times but it still worked? Even though she took the AE? I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. Maybe this would have been even quicker if she didn't puke.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

She puked several times but it still worked? Even though she took the AE? I don't know if this is a good or bad thing. Maybe this would have been even quicker if she didn't puke.

You can still puke even when you take the antiemetic (Like Meto). It's been said a lot of times.
You can still die even if you vomit.
I'm guessing she took Meto cause it would help her die quicker.

 

[Lotus1818]

I'm gonna take a break from this website. I won't be answering any questions for a while. Thanks for understanding

 

[Kira]

Thank you so much for doing this. I know this was incredibly hard for you, and I admire your bravery and dedication. You were a good friend to Moon and I know that she was glad to have you there with her in her final moments. You've done an amazing job and this will help so many people. Take as much time as you need to process everything and recover. We are all here for you.

 

[jgm63]

Pain on the scale of 3.5/5 sounds really painful. Wouldn't it have been a little bit lower if it was just uncomfortable?

Thank you for this beautiful thread. Really helps me over with my fears.

f.y.i. 3.5/10 was written, not 3.5/5

 

[Jean4]

I'm very skeptical about the 2-day regimen. The half-life of metoclopramide in individuals with normal renal function is 5 to 6 hr. Meaning after 5-6 hrs, the concentration of meto in the body will be half of the starting dose. Approximately 85% of the radioactivity of an orally administered dose appears in the urine within 72 hr. The meto people take 48 or even 72 hrs prior is almost completely broken down or excreted by the time they drink SN. I'd do the stat dose. Stan also did the stat dose.
https://www.rxlist.com/reglan-drug.htm

I also doubt meto is the strongest antiemetic. I know in the USA, Zofran (ondansetron) is the first line of treatment for nausea and vomiting from food poisoning. If you think about it, drinking SN is a type of food poisoning - your stomach tries to empty what it identifies as poison. I've taken both meto and ondansetron. Meto mostly speeds up stomach emptying for me, whereas ondansetron really helps with nausea and vomiting. I think people should try several different antiemetics and see which one works best for them. Antiemetic doesn't seem to be "one size fits all."

I don't think "fasting for 8-hr" is one size fits all, either. 8 hr may be too long for some people. Stan actually hinted this in his SN guide. You need an empty stomach when taking SN. It usually only takes 4-5 hrs for the stomach to empty after a full meal - even takes less time under the prokinetic effect of meto. But of course, it varies depending on how much and what kind of food you ate. The problem of fasting for too long is that, the chemical balancing act of the "hunger hormones" can be thrown out of whack if you ignore your hunger signals for too long - that's why many people start to feel nauseated from an extended period of fasting. https://www.livescience.com/why-nauseous-when-hungry.html

Stan gave me multiple days he may CTB. He wrote his goodbye post when he knew I would be asleep.

We ate our meals together over Skype. The night he wrote his goodbye post, he didn't eat. When I asked why, he said he wasn't feeling well.

He was probably fasting and didn't tell me. He fasted at least 5 hours.

 

[less than]

It's fully understandable that you need a break. I know people which support dying people (by terminal illnesses or simply elderly) on their last way (natural death). Before they get the ability to do that, they have do get through professional education. And even for they it's a hard job. And you've done this without any preparations. We can barely imagine how hard it has hit you and which impact that has for you. Take as much time as you need and take care for yourself.

 

[HereToday]

I really hope she didn't suffer while she was gasping for air. I'm rethinking this method now

 

[jgm63]

I really hope she didn't suffer while she was gasping for air. I'm rethinking this method now

The overall impression I get is still that it is fairly peaceful.
Yes, there is likely to be some discomfort, but the discomfort level doesn't sound that bad or seem to last very long.
But obviously, everyone has to decide for themselves....

I'm very skeptical about the 2-day regimen. The half-life of metoclopramide in individuals with normal renal function is 5 to 6 hr. Meaning after 5-6 hrs, the concentration of meto in the body will be half of the starting dose. Approximately 85% of the radioactivity of an orally administered dose appears in the urine within 72 hr. The meto people take 48 or even 72 hrs prior is almost completely broken down or excreted by the time they drink SN. I'd do the stat dose. Stan also did the stat dose.
https://www.rxlist.com/reglan-drug.htm

I also doubt meto is the strongest antiemetic. I know in the USA, Zofran (ondansetron) is the first line of treatment for nausea and vomiting from food poisoning. If you think about it, drinking SN is a type of food poisoning - your stomach tries to empty what it identifies as poison. I've taken both meto and ondansetron. Meto mostly speeds up stomach emptying for me, whereas ondansetron really helps with nausea and vomiting. I think people should try several different antiemetics and see which one works best for them. Antiemetic doesn't seem to be "one size fits all."

I don't think "fasting for 8-hr" is one size fits all, either. 8 hr may be too long for some people. Stan actually hinted this in his SN guide. You need an empty stomach when taking SN. It usually only takes 4-5 hrs for the stomach to empty after a full meal - even takes less time under the prokinetic effect of meto. But of course, it varies depending on how much and what kind of food you ate. The problem of fasting for too long is that, the chemical balancing act of the "hunger hormones" can be thrown out of whack if you ignore your hunger signals for too long - that's why many people start to feel nauseated from an extended period of fasting. https://www.livescience.com/why-nauseous-when-hungry.html

Some notes on 48 hour vs stat :

Spoiler: post-517024

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/n-protocol-regime-regimen-notes.27092/post-517024

Notes on fasting :

Spoiler: post-509449

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/n-protocol-regime-regimen-notes.27092/post-509449

 

[Backwood_tilt]

I'm gonna take a break from this website. I won't be answering any questions for a while. Thanks for understanding

You have been through a lot - you certainly deserve a break. I cannot imagine what it was like to go through this.

Thank you for your efforts documenting Moonicide's passing, i am sure it will be very useful for others.

 

[aramir]

can you let us know if the noises she made were loud enough to possibly alert anyone if they were in an opposite room ?

 

[jgm63]

can you let us know if the noises she made were loud enough to possibly alert anyone if they were in an opposite room ?

I think they were on a video call, so it might be hard to judge. Anyhow, it would depend on various factors (eg how thick or thin are the walls, how large are the rooms, and how much distance between them, etc).
I think some people try to have some background noise, eg a video or music playing.

I suppose in theory you could do a test run by putting some music on, then making a few noises to see if anybody notices, but then you would need to know how loud to make the noises, so hard to say how valid that would be...

 

[Starrywaters]

can you let us know if the noises she made were loud enough to possibly alert anyone if they were in an opposite room ?

Lotus mentioned Moon lived with her parents and sisters, the door was unlocked and she wasn't disturbed.

Of course it will always depends on how 'responsive' somebody you are with may be to noises, what may alert one person to investigate may not do so for another.
Oh Lotus, my heart is sending you all the love I can muster for how hard this must be for you. It's an incredible burden and you have provided good reference for those looking at this method.

Please look after yourself

 

[Quarky00]

@nitrogen , half-life and clearance are dose-dependent , effects accumulate , and tolerance built (may ease side effects) . Increased rest tone of GI muscles / sphincters helpful . If it takes 48h-72h to eliminate , surely it accumulates . Meto can also be very harsh for certain people , with a single big dose , and that may cause not-so-peaceful ctb . That said both regimen are effective , each suits different people with their prior conditions , sensitivities , and preferences .

Ondansetron is indeed more effective for preventing nausea than metclopramide . That's not the goal . Prokinetic effects and D2 receptors in CTZ appear beneficial . It goes neither here nor there: many used SN fatally without AE and many vomited even with AE . But chances of hastening or easing things may be increased (speculative). Couldn't agree more about 'one size fits all' , and that current regimen/schedule are too strict for no reason, test it yourself, etc.

Hope I did not come off argumentative , I'm tired , hard for me to phrase things , just 2 cents

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/my-planned-domperidone-ahead-regimen.18083/post-341047

 

[BlueWidow]

@Lotus1818,

First, My heartfelt gratitude for your courage and tenacity in making this post. I'm sure it must've been hard for you to witness the passing of your close friend. I'm sure everyone on this forum thanks you for going through that experience in order to add to our information. I hope you are doing as well as possible after the passing of your friend.
I didn't know Moonicide well, but I could tell what a caring person she was. What you and she have both done in making this post possible is give many of us more certainty and assurance that SN is as peaceful of a method aspossible, if you have no way to obtain N.
"Peaceful" being a relative term, as everyone defines it in different degrees.

Death rattle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I watched my husband go through this when he was dying of cancer. I believe hospice gave him medicine so it wouldn't be quite as obvious to family members, as is stated on the Wikipedia page. I was told by the hospice workers that he was not in any pain and was not aware of what was going on. Again, he was in hospice and being given meds, but I think most people go through this when they are in the process of dying. It's a normal thing.

Thank you again for your contribution to this forum. I'm sure it will give untold numbers of people, both now and in the future, much needed reassurance about the SN method.

Sending love and hugs

 

[nitrogen]

Some notes on 48 hour vs stat :
The 48 hour regime might have a lower EPS risk since you're not taking so much antiemetic at once.
Some people suggest there's a lower vomiting risk with the 48 hour regime, but I haven't seen evidence to convincingly support that
There could be additional benefits to the 48 hour regime, other than the lower EPS risk, however it is not clear what those are (if any), although speculations have been made. If you have strong factual information on this then please share.

So based on your notes, the only benefit of the 2 day or 48 hr regimen over stat dose is lower EPS risk, besides mental preparation that some people need. There shouldn't be a significantly lower vomiting risk with the 48 hr regimen based on the pharmacokinetics of meto, which is in line with what you wrote.

half-life and clearance are dose-dependent , effects accumulate , and tolerance built (may ease side effects) . Increased rest tone of GI muscles / sphincters helpful . If it takes 48h-72h to eliminate , surely it accumulates . Meto can also be very harsh for certain people , with a single big dose

If 85% of orally administered meto appears in the urine within 72 hrs, sure the other 15% still remains in the body and there's accumulation to a small degree. Good point on a big single dose may be harsh for certain people, which leads to the question "why does it have to be meto as the AE of choice?"

I don't see what makes meto THE antiemetic choice. Stan listed a bunch of AEs and the PPH listed a bunch of AEs that can also work with the SN method, though both Stan and PPH used meto in their step by step guides. Many people talk about meto as if it's the only AE choice. I did find research articles that suggest meto speeds up the absorption of certain chemicals in the duodenum, which could potentially speed up SN death - the question is by how much.

There had been a discussion of meto (Reglan) vs Ondansetron (Zofran) on this forum before. It's pretty useful. If I can't decide a winner, seems like a good idea to take both.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/anti-emetics-reglan-vs-zofran.14609/

Regarding fasting, this section is copied and pasted from Stan's SN guide: " Fasting is strongly recommended. Some people have medical conditions that mean fasting has a negative effect on them. Sources say that 8 hours is needed. I would suggest individuals know their own metabolism better than a book. If you know that your stomach feels empty after 4 hours, then I suggest you have a 4 hour fast. Try to avoid eating anything large and heavy. Avoid drinking anything two hours prior to drinking the SN." I would suggest the same as Stan suggested - fast as long as it's needed for your stomach to empty, but perhaps not much longer than that.

The night he wrote his goodbye post, he didn't eat. When I asked why, he said he wasn't feeling well.
He was probably fasting and didn't tell me. He fasted at least 5 hours.

Not feeling well how? Physically or emotionally?

Stan did the stat dose, right?

It must have been extremely difficult on you given how close you were to him. I'm so sorry for your loss.

 

[notjustyetagain]

extremely brave, selfless, and generous (i.e. typical) of @Moonicide and @Lotus1818. all my thoughts/feelings can be condensed to thank you, sorry, and .

i hope you take as long as you need to process your experience and find some acceptance, strength, or whatever it is you're looking for during your break, @Lotus1818.

 

[Quarky00]

I don't see what makes meto THE antiemetic choice. Stan listed a bunch of AEs

All dopamine . Ondansetron isn't . That was the point :) Each of the 6 listed is fine ...
That said, meto preferred as it targets 5HT3 as well, and not just dopamine –

TL;DR version: Domperidone + Ondansetron (Zofran) = meto. Without the side effects too.

Ineed 15% for 1 dose over 72h is little.... But regimen is x6 doses and over 48h. It adds up.

the only benefit of the 2 day or 48 hr regimen over stat dose is lower EPS risk

You've replied jgm63, but not just EPS, some had terrible migraines, others knocked out (completely fell asleep), etc . Tolerance. PPH for old fragile people. This may lower many side effects for some. Not making a judgment, stat is a good option for many.