Discussion Getting Better Without Feeling Better?

[Jealous Blackheart]

Day to day I do not find myself plagued by intense emotions, negative or positive. I usually don't feel much at all. I've largely lived an emotionally incompetent life, and on the odd occasions I do start feeling things they're quite foreign to me and I struggle to identify or articulate them.

This year I've been on recovery road and for the most part it has been very stable but today I felt something. Some memories I can't get rid of pulled me in a certain direction this morning. I did not fight it, and I was reminded of a natural truth. All of this has left me in a state I'd like to describe as hopelessly motivated. I would not call this a desirable sensation. It's something like a cocktail of anger and optimism, euphoria and hurt. It feels like revenge.

The reason I'm in recovery is not because life magically became wonderful, it's because life couldn't get worse. None of my methods were effective so I gave up trying.

Even though my motivation to get better boils down to having nothing else to do, I have been making progress.
My ID and my license have both been renewed. I am taking care of my body again since I need to live in it and I've recovered most of my fitness. I'm slowly learning another language, My penmanship has improved. I'm checking more books off of my literary bucket list. And most importantly I'm actively pursuing ways to earn a better living and finding a real career (this is the most difficult part by far).

But these are just boxes to tick even though I am ticking them. If an angel put N under my pillow and I found it tonight I can't promise I would wake up tomorrow.

So my question now is: Can you really get better without feeling better or is an emotional component necessary? And if it is, is the revenge cocktail I felt this morning a good pillar to lean on? Is it healthy to want to feel better strictly to stand above the people who've wounded you? Do I need a recovery partner? Is what I'm doing enough?

Any and all feedback that doesn't involve seeing a therapist or counsellor is welcome. I'm all ears.

 

[SecretDissociation]

I don't have an immediate answer. But the therapists I was seeing were always asking me if 'I wanted to be here' and do therapy and if I actually felt like being there. It seemed to always be some sort of pre-requisite. I think that most behavioural modality therapists will think that to get better you have to start feeling better too. Although, I think that I don't have to enjoy coming to therapy, I can just do the exercises and tasks and come back and stuff (even though the exercises didn't help at all so I came back unsatisfied). But it would always circle back to the big question 'Do you want to be here?' and I didn't really know how to answer that because I didn't really and I don't really want to be anywhere. I just do things on autopilot. E.g schedule a therapist appointment and I go because it's scheduled. Why does my personal feelings matter? Like you, I do things, ticking the checklist as you say, do this assignment done, get good grades done, eat, sleep, stay alive, hangout with friends, work, done done and done.

But it seems to be a pre-requisite (to professionals) to do these things with joy, with some sort of external will factor. But I don't think so. I'm/I was in recovery because I wanted to stop being miserable. Not because I want to be happier, I just want to function like a normal person without feeling like killing myself. But it seems that you have to sacrifice a lot of things, and one of those is sacrificing 'not feeling better' (all the time).

I think it's possible to get better without explicitly feeling better. It's just that there aren't many people out there willing to work with with you/us because it can be hard.

I have (think I have) trauma. I have memories too that bring me further down. And you know maybe these memories will be with me forever, but I do think it's possible to get better while having these memories.

I'm not sure if someone answering if what you're doing enough will help. But it sounds like you're doing everything you can and that's what matters. You're doing what other functional people do. So make sure that you know that that counts (that was so word-y).

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I don't have any advice, but just wanted to say that I'm in the very similar situation and I deeply relate.

As an aside, what have you been reading? Anything that particularly stands out?

 

[Jealous Blackheart]

I don't have an immediate answer. But the therapists I was seeing were always asking me if 'I wanted to be here' and do therapy and if I actually felt like being there. It seemed to always be some sort of pre-requisite. I think that most behavioural modality therapists will think that to get better you have to start feeling better too. Although, I think that I don't have to enjoy coming to therapy, I can just do the exercises and tasks and come back and stuff (even though the exercises didn't help at all so I came back unsatisfied). But it would always circle back to the big question 'Do you want to be here?' and I didn't really know how to answer that because I didn't really and I don't really want to be anywhere. I just do things on autopilot. E.g schedule a therapist appointment and I go because it's scheduled. Why does my personal feelings matter? Like you, I do things, ticking the checklist as you say, do this assignment done, get good grades done, eat, sleep, stay alive, hangout with friends, work, done done and done.

But it seems to be a pre-requisite (to professionals) to do these things with joy, with some sort of external will factor. But I don't think so. I'm/I was in recovery because I wanted to stop being miserable. Not because I want to be happier, I just want to function like a normal person without feeling like killing myself. But it seems that you have to sacrifice a lot of things, and one of those is sacrificing 'not feeling better' (all the time).

I think it's possible to get better without explicitly feeling better. It's just that there aren't many people out there willing to work with with you/us because it can be hard.

I have (think I have) trauma. I have memories too that bring me further down. And you know maybe these memories will be with me forever, but I do think it's possible to get better while having these memories.

I'm not sure if someone answering if what you're doing enough will help. But it sounds like you're doing everything you can and that's what matters. You're doing what other functional people do. So make sure that you know that that counts (that was so word-y).

Wordy is good. It helps me calibrate. I don't do much socializing and certainly not about this off of this site (anymore).

The insight to what therapists say to you when you seem to be in such a similar position is also very helpful. So the professional consensus (in your experience) seems to be that you have to feel better but that is largely inaccessible to me. Do you have any larger goals in life? Bucket list items to check off that keep you going? How have you been deciding what's worth doing? I'd love to know your recovery story because of our similarities.

Making peace with the past was also a big deal for me. There was a lot of letting go and separations that helped me function better. The memories are still there but instead of trying to erase them, which is a vain project, there is the method of making the entire pie bigger so the slice is a smaller %. Since you are doing therapy you may have access to other ways of dealing with your trauma but time will tell, won't it?

I don't have any advice, but just wanted to say that I'm in the very similar situation and I deeply relate.

As an aside, what have you been reading? Anything that particularly stands out?

Mostly classic literature. Recently I've read Carmilla, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The House of Bondage, The Phantom of the Opera, and I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings. Are you a reader as well?

 

[SecretDissociation]

Wordy is good. It helps me calibrate. I don't do much socializing and certainly not about this off of this site (anymore).

The insight to what therapists say to you when you seem to be in such a similar position is also very helpful. So the professional consensus (in your experience) seems to be that you have to feel better but that is largely inaccessible to me. Do you have any larger goals in life? Bucket list items to check off that keep you going? How have you been deciding what's worth doing? I'd love to know your recovery story because of our similarities.

Making peace with the past was also a big deal for me. There was a lot of letting go and separations that helped me function better. The memories are still there but instead of trying to erase them, which is a vain project, there is the method of making the entire pie bigger so the slice is a smaller %. Since you are doing therapy you may have access to other ways of dealing with your trauma but time will tell, won't it?

Mostly classic literature. Recently I've read Carmilla, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The House of Bondage, The Phantom of the Opera, and I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings. Are you a reader as well?

I recently dropped out of therapy. It wasn't going well, and made me feel worst afterwards. imo, the therapists weren't very understanding or patient, and they were men (#trauma from your father amiright? >:( ).

I have large goals in life but they fluctuate. For instance, I'd like a small house, and I want to be a good English teacher. I've ticked off my bucket list, and most of them included buying things or doing things alone and I've done them. The problem is that I don't really get joy. Emotional permanence isn't something I developed, and I don't remember having it (probably the autism).

I usually decide what's worth doing just on it's overall efficacy. Will it give me some sort of joy? Will it be fun? Will it help me survive?

I wish I had other ways of dealing with my trauma, but behavioural therapy and counselling isn't for me and I don't forsee them working (hence why I left DBT, mostly because of the therapists though). I need trauma therapy.

I think I've been trying to recover my whole life, which is a bit different to other people's story of recovery. Do tell what yours is!
But I've always known since ~8 that I shouldn't feel miserable and like dying, and so recovery started with doing things like listening to my father, or being religious, doing good in school, dieting, exercising, reading online about improving mental health. Doctor's never really listened to me until I kept going back and begging for help in summer of 2023. But, honestly, I'm starting to lose hope in recovery! Too many rules.

I request again, What's your recovery story? It'd be nice to read if you're comfortable.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Mostly classic literature. Recently I've read Carmilla, The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, The House of Bondage, The Phantom of the Opera, and I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings. Are you a reader as well?

I am indeed! My preferred genre is narrative history (non-fiction) though. The most recent novel I read was Dostoevsky's The House of the Dead.

 

[Jealous Blackheart]

I recently dropped out of therapy. It wasn't going well, and made me feel worst afterwards. imo, the therapists weren't very understanding or patient, and they were men (#trauma from your father amiright? >:( ).

I have large goals in life but they fluctuate. For instance, I'd like a small house, and I want to be a good English teacher. I've ticked off my bucket list, and most of them included buying things or doing things alone and I've done them. The problem is that I don't really get joy. Emotional permanence isn't something I developed, and I don't remember having it (probably the autism).

I usually decide what's worth doing just on it's overall efficacy. Will it give me some sort of joy? Will it be fun? Will it help me survive?

I wish I had other ways of dealing with my trauma, but behavioural therapy and counselling isn't for me and I don't forsee them working (hence why I left DBT, mostly because of the therapists though). I need trauma therapy.

I think I've been trying to recover my whole life, which is a bit different to other people's story of recovery. Do tell what yours is!
But I've always known since ~8 that I shouldn't feel miserable and like dying, and so recovery started with doing things like listening to my father, or being religious, doing good in school, dieting, exercising, reading online about improving mental health. Doctor's never really listened to me until I kept going back and begging for help in summer of 2023. But, honestly, I'm starting to lose hope in recovery! Too many rules.

I request again, What's your recovery story? It'd be nice to read if you're comfortable.

It's unfortunate that therapy didn't work out for you. Would you consider trying it again if the therapist wasn't a man?

A house for us in our generation is significantly more difficult than it ought to be. That is something I used to want to do as a child and the older I got the more impossible it seemed. It is something I would like to do if I can manage it without having to spend 30+ years paying the thing off. I have an appreciation for wanting to teach English too. Solid goals.

I used to struggle a lot with deciding what was worth doing since I don't have a reliable emotional compass to guide me. Recently it's been helpful to measure within the limitations of life and trying to find an ideal there. For instance, I will never be 5kgs but I will also never be 500kgs. As long as I exist I am required to be a number between those two. Depending on what I need my body to do, some of those numbers are going to be better than others. Once I know what that is it just makes sense to go in that direction. It really doesn't have anything to do with joy or desire.

I'm hoping anyone else with anhedonia or atypical emotions can contribute or use this thread as a resource to help them function better despite the setback.

Your story starts at a younger age than mine does. The short version is really just that I gave up trying to die. Life is never as hopeful for me than it is after I lose everything and I have no other choice.

The longer version is I tried killing myself a few times by my mid teens and was hospitalized. No idea how I survived after drinking poison but that was the fool proof method so when that failed I really didn't have a backup plan. Some years went by after that just having nothing to lose. By the time I turned 20 I was ready to go again. That time I thought it would be a kindness to tell my parents first. My father called me evil and guilt kept me around that time. I had a glimpse at a semi-respectable life but I'm going to skip some details as it exhausts me to recall everything although I'd like to be helpful and share. After my last bout of failed attempts I just realized that I had nothing left. I was completely isolated socially, out of money, no ties to life whatsoever and by an odd turn I remembered how easy life is for me. As in the functional aspects. I don't make a mess of my living space, I can take care of myself, being alone isn't torture for me, regular exercise is not a challenge, etc. Everything that isn't social that is. Socializing and bureaucracy are the banes of existence.
This person thinks I'm the devil because I didn't want to hug them, that person doesn't like me because he thinks I'm his competition. I can't do this thing because I don't have this piece of paper which I need to make a phone call to this department about and then fill out this form and upload it to this website and I'm sorry but how was I supposed to know any of this again?
I digress.
I was a blank slate again. There are a lot of things people really struggle with that are effortless for me, and there are things that I struggle with that are effortless for other people. Recovery for me was just having this blank canvas of a life to start over and maybe if I can figure out the challenging part I can be comfortable and let myself expire naturally.

What are the rules you're having to follow for recovery? If you're giving up because there are too many of them perhaps you can evaluate what the core pillars of your recovery are and focus on those instead of being overwhelmed by this great long list.

I am indeed! My preferred genre is narrative history (non-fiction) though. The most recent novel I read was Dostoevsky's The House of the Dead.

Narrative history: I can't say it's my most read genre. And I do find a lot of value in fiction. The last non-fiction book I read this year was Etiquette in Society by Emily Post. Contrasting the simplicity of the social rules in that book with the ambiguity of the individuality of today was quite revealing. I do intend to get into Dostoevsky this year. He's been on my list for quite some time and I already have Crime and Punishment waiting. I'm already made it though a bunch of the English classics I've been meaning to get to.

Besides reading, is there anything else you've made a part of your life in recovery despite the title of this thread?

 

[SecretDissociation]

It's unfortunate that therapy didn't work out for you. Would you consider trying it again if the therapist wasn't a man?

A house for us in our generation is significantly more difficult than it ought to be. That is something I used to want to do as a child and the older I got the more impossible it seemed. It is something I would like to do if I can manage it without having to spend 30+ years paying the thing off. I have an appreciation for wanting to teach English too. Solid goals.

I used to struggle a lot with deciding what was worth doing since I don't have a reliable emotional compass to guide me. Recently it's been helpful to measure within the limitations of life and trying to find an ideal there. For instance, I will never be 5kgs but I will also never be 500kgs. As long as I exist I am required to be a number between those two. Depending on what I need my body to do, some of those numbers are going to be better than others. Once I know what that is it just makes sense to go in that direction. It really doesn't have anything to do with joy or desire.

I'm hoping anyone else with anhedonia or atypical emotions can contribute or use this thread as a resource to help them function better despite the setback.

Your story starts at a younger age than mine does. The short version is really just that I gave up trying to die. Life is never as hopeful for me than it is after I lose everything and I have no other choice.

The longer version is I tried killing myself a few times by my mid teens and was hospitalized. No idea how I survived after drinking poison but that was the fool proof method so when that failed I really didn't have a backup plan. Some years went by after that just having nothing to lose. By the time I turned 20 I was ready to go again. That time I thought it would be a kindness to tell my parents first. My father called me evil and guilt kept me around that time. I had a glimpse at a semi-respectable life but I'm going to skip some details as it exhausts me to recall everything although I'd like to be helpful and share. After my last bout of failed attempts I just realized that I had nothing left. I was completely isolated socially, out of money, no ties to life whatsoever and by an odd turn I remembered how easy life is for me. As in the functional aspects. I don't make a mess of my living space, I can take care of myself, being alone isn't torture for me, regular exercise is not a challenge, etc. Everything that isn't social that is. Socializing and bureaucracy are the banes of existence.
This person thinks I'm the devil because I didn't want to hug them, that person doesn't like me because he thinks I'm his competition. I can't do this thing because I don't have this piece of paper which I need to make a phone call to this department about and then fill out this form and upload it to this website and I'm sorry but how was I supposed to know any of this again?
I digress.
I was a blank slate again. There are a lot of things people really struggle with that are effortless for me, and there are things that I struggle with that are effortless for other people. Recovery for me was just having this blank canvas of a life to start over and maybe if I can figure out the challenging part I can be comfortable and let myself expire naturally.

What are the rules you're having to follow for recovery? If you're giving up because there are too many of them perhaps you can evaluate what the core pillars of your recovery are and focus on those instead of being overwhelmed by this great long list.

Narrative history: I can't say it's my most read genre. And I do find a lot of value in fiction. The last non-fiction book I read this year was Etiquette in Society by Emily Post. Contrasting the simplicity of the social rules in that book with the ambiguity of the individuality of today was quite revealing. I do intend to get into Dostoevsky this year. He's been on my list for quite some time and I already have Crime and Punishment waiting. I'm already made it though a bunch of the English classics I've been meaning to get to.

Besides reading, is there anything else you've made a part of your life in recovery despite the title of this thread?

I'd consider trying again if it wasn't a man, wasn't DBT, and if the therapist was understanding and patient.

And yeah, the current climate doesn't help with reaching some of these long-term goals.

I see that how you decide thing has a sliding scale with some acceptable deviation. I think that's a good way to go. I think the way I choose things have a little nuance to them that I can find difficult to explain. It's more like, I choose whatever is most efficient. For instance, I am at university, because the most efficient way to get money and also exceed further in life, is to go through university. And that is my version of efficient. Or for instance, I decided to buy chocolate today, because it would be efficient to eat something than eat nothing even if I will feel horrible, because if I'll feel horrible either way, then I'll choose the option that atleast has some balance. I can't use your analogy of weight though! I have an eating disorder so I can't apply it to that thinking.

I sometimes give up on dying, but at times, it is not worth the stress and trouble of living to give up dying. I share the same sentiment with friends, for example, sometimes it is nice, and sometimes it is a pain in the neck. Too diplomatic, you do this, I do this but then I do this and I do more of this and you don't reciprocate back. It has a lot of unwritten rules that I sometimes just can't wrap my head around. I prefer the solitude. I've had people that were weird with me because I don't like touch, truly a weird thing.

I wish recovery for me was a blank state. I seem to have a really dirty grimy slate that needs scrubbing, and pressure washing, and airing and heat treatment and polishing and the rest.

For recovery, it was a lot of things like, commit to not self-harming, try these TIPP skills, which I tried before, and if it doesn't work you're doing it wrong even though I've done them many times, and commit to no suicide attempts, and commit to playing with soap, and commit to listening to me, your therapist and answer these questions about how you feel and no, I won't take no as a valid answer, even though it is very valid and I need help trying to identify what I'm feeling, instead of being told that I'm not putting my all in.

It was kind of like being put in front of a challenge course and being told what every single stage of the challenge will be without seeing the layout of the course.

I think because I'm still grieving too, and the therapy didn't want to focus on that, I just couldn't do it. Also, the therapy was very push-backy and reminded me of the way my father treated me, so I felt worse afterwards. My goals for recovery are a bit skewed right now because I just want to ctb following my friends death.

And also, I am glad you are here today. It must have sucked not having a back-up plan after nearly dying. I think I know how it feels, a little bit atleast.

 

[Jealous Blackheart]

I'd consider trying again if it wasn't a man, wasn't DBT, and if the therapist was understanding and patient.

And yeah, the current climate doesn't help with reaching some of these long-term goals.

I see that how you decide thing has a sliding scale with some acceptable deviation. I think that's a good way to go. I think the way I choose things have a little nuance to them that I can find difficult to explain. It's more like, I choose whatever is most efficient. For instance, I am at university, because the most efficient way to get money and also exceed further in life, is to go through university. And that is my version of efficient. Or for instance, I decided to buy chocolate today, because it would be efficient to eat something than eat nothing even if I will feel horrible, because if I'll feel horrible either way, then I'll choose the option that atleast has some balance. I can't use your analogy of weight though! I have an eating disorder so I can't apply it to that thinking.

I sometimes give up on dying, but at times, it is not worth the stress and trouble of living to give up dying. I share the same sentiment with friends, for example, sometimes it is nice, and sometimes it is a pain in the neck. Too diplomatic, you do this, I do this but then I do this and I do more of this and you don't reciprocate back. It has a lot of unwritten rules that I sometimes just can't wrap my head around. I prefer the solitude. I've had people that were weird with me because I don't like touch, truly a weird thing.

I wish recovery for me was a blank state. I seem to have a really dirty grimy slate that needs scrubbing, and pressure washing, and airing and heat treatment and polishing and the rest.

For recovery, it was a lot of things like, commit to not self-harming, try these TIPP skills, which I tried before, and if it doesn't work you're doing it wrong even though I've done them many times, and commit to no suicide attempts, and commit to playing with soap, and commit to listening to me, your therapist and answer these questions about how you feel and no, I won't take no as a valid answer, even though it is very valid and I need help trying to identify what I'm feeling, instead of being told that I'm not putting my all in.

It was kind of like being put in front of a challenge course and being told what every single stage of the challenge will be without seeing the layout of the course.

I think because I'm still grieving too, and the therapy didn't want to focus on that, I just couldn't do it. Also, the therapy was very push-backy and reminded me of the way my father treated me, so I felt worse afterwards. My goals for recovery are a bit skewed right now because I just want to ctb following my friends death.

And also, I am glad you are here today. It must have sucked not having a back-up plan after nearly dying. I think I know how it feels, a little bit atleast.

Apologies, I should have used another example or a trigger warning. It's not something I've related to but I have technically been diagnosed with an eating disorder as well. It's not entirely unfounded, I just don't think it's severe enough to be considered disordered when I don't struggle with it the way people with actual disordered eating do. The principle of defining a range within reasonable expectation and narrowing into the value that serves you the most remains. The formula can be applied to anything. It doesn't have to be used in the context I put it in.

Isn't it strange how upset people can get about you not wanting to be touched? Did I miss the memo? I didn't know I owed anyone my body but they sure act like it.

The scrubbing and, in short, purifying that you're referring to? That's what my failed attempts did for me. The whole process of purging everything, settling all of my affairs, and preparing to die, and then executing the method is what cleared the canvas. It's the unexpectedly still being alive after and needing to find some way to live again that's the blank page. Surely it's achievable without actually attempting? Maybe there's something liberating in releasing everything as if you were going to die without actually planning to die. I wonder if any research has been done on this.

The way you're describing some of your experiences with therapy make it sound like the professionals you were seeing had no idea what they were doing or they didn't care. Like they were following some handbook. How can you expect someone who struggles with articulating emotions to just know what they're feeling? If someone is grieving, how can you just breeze past that like it's not a relevant factor in their recovery process and just expect them to get better? It doesn't make any sense. I'm emotionally incompetent and even I know that. If anything it suggests that you're bound to have a better experience with another professional since the bar is so low.

Did your friend talk to you about ctb before they did? Were you friends online? Did you know them in person? Did they know that you wanted to and did they support your journey to recovery?

 

[SecretDissociation]

Apologies, I should have used another example or a trigger warning. It's not something I've related to but I have technically been diagnosed with an eating disorder as well. It's not entirely unfounded, I just don't think it's severe enough to be considered disordered when I don't struggle with it the way people with actual disordered eating do. The principle of defining a range within reasonable expectation and narrowing into the value that serves you the most remains. The formula can be applied to anything. It doesn't have to be used in the context I put it in.

Isn't it strange how upset people can get about you not wanting to be touched? Did I miss the memo? I didn't know I owed anyone my body but they sure act like it.

The scrubbing and, in short, purifying that you're referring to? That's what my failed attempts did for me. The whole process of purging everything, settling all of my affairs, and preparing to die, and then executing the method is what cleared the canvas. It's the unexpectedly still being alive after and needing to find some way to live again that's the blank page. Surely it's achievable without actually attempting? Maybe there's something liberating in releasing everything as if you were going to die without actually planning to die. I wonder if any research has been done on this.

The way you're describing some of your experiences with therapy make it sound like the professionals you were seeing had no idea what they were doing or they didn't care. Like they were following some handbook. How can you expect someone who struggles with articulating emotions to just know what they're feeling? If someone is grieving, how can you just breeze past that like it's not a relevant factor in their recovery process and just expect them to get better? It doesn't make any sense. I'm emotionally incompetent and even I know that. If anything it suggests that you're bound to have a better experience with another professional since the bar is so low.

Did your friend talk to you about ctb before they did? Were you friends online? Did you know them in person? Did they know that you wanted to and did they support your journey to recovery?

It's okay! Zero need to apologise! My only trigger is me. Eating disorder's are funny business because they have this funny bell-curve like structure, and sometimes the eating disorder and you can live in harmony and sometimes it takes over your life! I think the formula makes sense!

And yes, it is strange. What makes it worse, really, is that people tend to go on for a hug, or physical contact before asking you. And now they've gone and made it awkward because you have to step back and stop them. Somehow 7/10 times they always get offended... I'm offended you're touching me!

Ah, that makes sense. I think that's an actual practice I think in buddhism if I recall correctly. Unfortunately I am way to attached to everything and even though I have thrown things away because I thought the ctb would be successful I just end up buying it back!

And yes, it seems like the therapists weren't suitable for me. They weren't really people that tried to problem solve, they tended to just shove textbook guidance down my throat! I guess they just didn't see how grievance could fit into DBT pre-treatment but I think it could have fit perfectly, had they not tried to shove radical acceptance down my throat (seriously, who tells someone to just accept the death of their beloved? Like I already know they're dead, you're meant to help me stay safe!)

My friend died of natural causes! She had a pulmanory embolism which lead to cardiac arrest and eventually her heart rate just fell overtime. She was quite sane, actually! She wasn't that suicidal, only the normal amount! I think we balanced out eachother nicely, because she had that sanity and rationality to my suicidality and I had the sanity and rationality (and 5% confidence) to her anxiety! We met at university, last September. She was really understanding of my struggles, and didn't judge me for self-harming. Actually, she said something once that made my heart feel warm, she said that I can't 'control these things' (self-harm etc) and I thought damn, someone isn't telling me to try harder, but giving me a break. Ack, sorry for rambling on about her!

Also, I may have missed it, but are you currently going through therapy? What have professionals said to you regarding this anhedonia/emotional constipation (that's what I call it!)? Do you think there is an 'end' to recovery?

 

[Jealous Blackheart]

It's okay! Zero need to apologise! My only trigger is me. Eating disorder's are funny business because they have this funny bell-curve like structure, and sometimes the eating disorder and you can live in harmony and sometimes it takes over your life! I think the formula makes sense!

And yes, it is strange. What makes it worse, really, is that people tend to go on for a hug, or physical contact before asking you. And now they've gone and made it awkward because you have to step back and stop them. Somehow 7/10 times they always get offended... I'm offended you're touching me!

Ah, that makes sense. I think that's an actual practice I think in buddhism if I recall correctly. Unfortunately I am way to attached to everything and even though I have thrown things away because I thought the ctb would be successful I just end up buying it back!

And yes, it seems like the therapists weren't suitable for me. They weren't really people that tried to problem solve, they tended to just shove textbook guidance down my throat! I guess they just didn't see how grievance could fit into DBT pre-treatment but I think it could have fit perfectly, had they not tried to shove radical acceptance down my throat (seriously, who tells someone to just accept the death of their beloved? Like I already know they're dead, you're meant to help me stay safe!)

My friend died of natural causes! She had a pulmanory embolism which lead to cardiac arrest and eventually her heart rate just fell overtime. She was quite sane, actually! She wasn't that suicidal, only the normal amount! I think we balanced out eachother nicely, because she had that sanity and rationality to my suicidality and I had the sanity and rationality (and 5% confidence) to her anxiety! We met at university, last September. She was really understanding of my struggles, and didn't judge me for self-harming. Actually, she said something once that made my heart feel warm, she said that I can't 'control these things' (self-harm etc) and I thought damn, someone isn't telling me to try harder, but giving me a break. Ack, sorry for rambling on about her!

Also, I may have missed it, but are you currently going through therapy? What have professionals said to you regarding this anhedonia/emotional constipation (that's what I call it!)? Do you think there is an 'end' to recovery?

It isn't rambling if I asked. Even the little information you just shared illuminates your relationship a great deal. I'm sorry for your lost, and hers.
Your relationship reminds me strongly of the book my signature comes from, By the time you read this, I'll be dead.
It's about a suicidal mute girl who meets a boy with his own issues.

In some way, on some level, isn't understanding a place to belong? She sounds like a good person. If I'm lucky I might get to be one too before I go.

I'm not in therapy. I was required to see a psychiatrist in my teens but his job was to diagnose and prescribe. I technically also have a social anxiety diagnosis that I don't relate to either. I just didn't like or see the point in being around people. It's not like I got panic attacks in public or anything like that. But he insisted based on his observations that I had social anxiety. The dysthymia diagnosis was actually spot on though. That one was undeniable after I learned more about it.

I'm not emotionally constipated right now lol. I also used that term but for emotions that you have inside of you that you can't get out for one reason or another. Anhedonia mixed with depression is more like there being nothing or very little there at all. When there are things to expression emotionally I've found that I have 3 "healthy" outlets but that's a topic for another thread.

I think there is an end to recovery for some people. There are many people who were suicidal before who are pro-life now. For some of them it was just a dark period of their lives. A passing storm. Maybe they fell in love, or mended the relationship with their parents, found religion, or otherwise had an event take place in their lives that made them do a 180 and recovery isn't something they need to put effort into anymore. For some people this really is just a phase. Perhaps a part of their angsty teen years or mid life crisis. And with a little time and the right support they're right as rain again.

I'm not one of those people. I'm in recovery and I'm still pro-choice. I still live my life ready to die even though I'm investing my efforts into a better tomorrow.

I think some of us are always going to have to live deliberately. I'm choosing to get better instead of wallow. I'm looking for ways to make a life instead of looking for ways to die. The sensation of revenge I felt, which in hindsight could also be described as competition, did offer some burst of motivation to accomplish more things. I'm still wondering if that's healthy long term or not. And how beneficial a recovery partner would be. I will admit that while I am moving in a more positive direction I have been dragging my feet. I am wasting hours in excess daily instead of improving my condition by objective measures. Is there anything I can tap into that will put wheels on my effort or will I have to brute force this all the way there?

 

[SecretDissociation]

It isn't rambling if I asked. Even the little information you just shared illuminates your relationship a great deal. I'm sorry for your lost, and hers.
Your relationship reminds me strongly of the book my signature comes from, By the time you read this, I'll be dead.
It's about a suicidal mute girl who meets a boy with his own issues.

In some way, on some level, isn't understanding a place to belong? She sounds like a good person. If I'm lucky I might get to be one too before I go.

I'm not in therapy. I was required to see a psychiatrist in my teens but his job was to diagnose and prescribe. I technically also have a social anxiety diagnosis that I don't relate to either. I just didn't like or see the point in being around people. It's not like I got panic attacks in public or anything like that. But he insisted based on his observations that I had social anxiety. The dysthymia diagnosis was actually spot on though. That one was undeniable after I learned more about it.

I'm not emotionally constipated right now lol. I also used that term but for emotions that you have inside of you that you can't get out for one reason or another. Anhedonia mixed with depression is more like there being nothing or very little there at all. When there are things to expression emotionally I've found that I have 3 "healthy" outlets but that's a topic for another thread.

I think there is an end to recovery for some people. There are many people who were suicidal before who are pro-life now. For some of them it was just a dark period of their lives. A passing storm. Maybe they fell in love, or mended the relationship with their parents, found religion, or otherwise had an event take place in their lives that made them do a 180 and recovery isn't something they need to put effort into anymore. For some people this really is just a phase. Perhaps a part of their angsty teen years or mid life crisis. And with a little time and the right support they're right as rain again.

I'm not one of those people. I'm in recovery and I'm still pro-choice. I still live my life ready to die even though I'm investing my efforts into a better tomorrow.

I think some of us are always going to have to live deliberately. I'm choosing to get better instead of wallow. I'm looking for ways to make a life instead of looking for ways to die. The sensation of revenge I felt, which in hindsight could also be described as competition, did offer some burst of motivation to accomplish more things. I'm still wondering if that's healthy long term or not. And how beneficial a recovery partner would be. I will admit that while I am moving in a more positive direction I have been dragging my feet. I am wasting hours in excess daily instead of improving my condition by objective measures. Is there anything I can tap into that will put wheels on my effort or will I have to brute force this all the way there?

Ah, yes there is a nuance between emotional constipation and anhedonia. I just ignored the nuance or else I'd begin mansplaining (and I get tired of reading myself, ha!). Emotional constipation is my mother, who acts non-chalant about almost anything, and doesn't really show affection despite thinking it. I think because of this, I ended up developing an intellectualisation coping mechanism to deal with my emotions, that and I've never felt emotional permanence of joy or excitement or most of the positive things! My baseline is either numbness or indifference. I don't think I know well what emotional constipation is, rather I use it to describe others!

That book sounds like a good read! Unfortunately I hate reading things with a sad ending, or with angst in general. Which is funny because that friend loved angst and I hated writing it and she wrote it a lot. Weirdo /s. And yes, exactly, that understanding made me feel like I belong, like I wasn't an outcast for not being whatever the baseline was/is for 'normal' or 'healthy'.

From what I know of you through this thread, you are a that person.

Ah, psychiatrists have a knack for giving diagnoses or conclusions you disagree with. Diagnosing mental conditions is such difficult stuff. I was told that this feeling and other stuff of mine was EUPD/BPD. They don't diagnose in my community mental health team though, they aim to 'treat the symptoms' but after hearing that I felt like it wasn't that, and it didn't explain my other behaviours. I ended up going to get privately assessed for autism and I was diagnosed late. No-one really understands when I describe how I've felt miserable, lacking joy for basically my whole life now, I've looked into dysythmia (they call it PDD in the UK), but psychiatrists here have their eyes peeled into personality disorders.

It's interesting to hear of the ways different people find or go through recovery. I've wished to be one of those people that just found religion, or went by a phase, got some counselling and felt better. I wonder how it feels to have that little emotional uproar/intensity or problems. Or even, to have a brain that can be that easily reqired.

Living deliberately does get really tiring. I've always been in a position where I am 'dragging my feet' and being pushed along. But overtime, it starts to feel painful actually living like this because there is no joy or external validation that is permanent which makes me ready or excited for the next thing along. How do you deal with this?

 

[Jealous Blackheart]

Ah, yes there is a nuance between emotional constipation and anhedonia. I just ignored the nuance or else I'd begin mansplaining (and I get tired of reading myself, ha!). Emotional constipation is my mother, who acts non-chalant about almost anything, and doesn't really show affection despite thinking it. I think because of this, I ended up developing an intellectualisation coping mechanism to deal with my emotions, that and I've never felt emotional permanence of joy or excitement or most of the positive things! My baseline is either numbness or indifference. I don't think I know well what emotional constipation is, rather I use it to describe others!

That book sounds like a good read! Unfortunately I hate reading things with a sad ending, or with angst in general. Which is funny because that friend loved angst and I hated writing it and she wrote it a lot. Weirdo /s. And yes, exactly, that understanding made me feel like I belong, like I wasn't an outcast for not being whatever the baseline was/is for 'normal' or 'healthy'.

From what I know of you through this thread, you are a that person.

Ah, psychiatrists have a knack for giving diagnoses or conclusions you disagree with. Diagnosing mental conditions is such difficult stuff. I was told that this feeling and other stuff of mine was EUPD/BPD. They don't diagnose in my community mental health team though, they aim to 'treat the symptoms' but after hearing that I felt like it wasn't that, and it didn't explain my other behaviours. I ended up going to get privately assessed for autism and I was diagnosed late. No-one really understands when I describe how I've felt miserable, lacking joy for basically my whole life now, I've looked into dysythmia (they call it PDD in the UK), but psychiatrists here have their eyes peeled into personality disorders.

It's interesting to hear of the ways different people find or go through recovery. I've wished to be one of those people that just found religion, or went by a phase, got some counselling and felt better. I wonder how it feels to have that little emotional uproar/intensity or problems. Or even, to have a brain that can be that easily reqired.

Living deliberately does get really tiring. I've always been in a position where I am 'dragging my feet' and being pushed along. But overtime, it starts to feel painful actually living like this because there is no joy or external validation that is permanent which makes me ready or excited for the next thing along. How do you deal with this?

Given that we use the same words to describe different things and have attached very different meanings to things on a cultural level, perhaps overexplaining ourselves is better than underexplaining. In general I mean, as a society. Don't you think it helps us understand each other better? To tidy up these faultless differences?

I wish I could help with the the lack of excitement being painful. Unfortunately, there is a certain amount of comfort in my emptiness because of the absence of negativity. See, my parents don't like me. My father especially. I never had that positive external validation or encouragement, and by the time I got older and I started to get it from strangers I couldn't feel it at all. It does nothing for me at best and actively makes me uncomfortable at worst. It's the overall languor of apathy that hinders me the most.

In your case I think it's pretty clear that the grief of losing a loved one is not something you just push through or radically accept. Especially this soon. You have to actually process that grief, not ignore it. This person was understanding, accepting, a place to belong, someone to love and who loved you. Someone who might have helped you along. That was taken from you. I would start there before trying to find motivation to move forward.

Despite my name I don't ever actually spend my time wishing I was other people or wanting what they have. It's possible that more people will contribute to the discussion but so far it seems like:
- Professional opinion is that emotional stimuli is required.
-Recovery partner requires additional information.
-Brute forcing forever is unsustainable.
-All motivating factors are valid short-term.

With this baseline I'm going to look into finding some kind of recovery partner. Whether that's someone to compete with that can hold me to account or act as a pace keeper. I'm not sure. But there is definitely something missing. I need to be doing more.

I appreciate all of your input and you sharing your experience. And I hope you're able to show yourself some grace. You're not a machine.

 

[derpyderpins]

So my question now is: Can you really get better without feeling better or is an emotional component necessary?

Well, the vocab is difficult.

There's some formula for "feeling better", we'll call it your overall utility, and emotions are part of it.

But, eg, have you heard the expression "money can't buy happiness but I'd rather be crying in a Ferrari"?

Well, I'd rather be depressed without back pain or stomach issues and with more reason to perceive myself well.

So I'd say that yes you are getting better. It's like the bars for your characters in the Sims games.
@Alexei_Kirillov

And if it is, is the revenge cocktail I felt this morning a good pillar to lean on? Is it healthy to want to feel better strictly to stand above the people who've wounded you? Do I need a recovery partner? Is what I'm doing enough?

Every journey is different. I definitely succeed in part out of spite. I'd say that is better wording than "revenge." Revenge implies - to me - that you are counting on hurting them, and shitty people never react the way you'd want/expect. Spite, though (again, just my take) is more like a stubborn insistence on principles - they suck so you WILL be better so you don't also suck. I think that's better framing.

Again, every journey is different. Partner, what you're doing, there are no 100% answers. I think this "revenge cocktail" is intriguing, which is great if you're seeing the world as boring! I'd recommend digging deeper into articulating the reasoning behind the cocktail.

If you'd ever like to chat feel free to reach out. I promise eventual and slow responses and nothing more.

Day to day I do not find myself plagued by intense emotions, negative or positive. I usually don't feel much at all. I've largely lived an emotionally incompetent life, and on the odd occasions I do start feeling things they're quite foreign to me and I struggle to identify or articulate them.

"emotionally incompetent" is another very intriguing phrase! What, I wonder, defines emotional competence?
There can be a lot of reasons for feeling less powerful emotions on average than others.

Emotions are a gamble, right? Love, thrill, ambition, hope, joy: these are wonderful. But, by opening yourself up you can also face despair, devastation, heartache, etc.

I don't think anyone has complete 100% control over their emotions. It's possible that as you "get better without feeling better" your body/brain/gut will decide it's time to take a little more risk than you have in the past, because you have a more stable foundation to fall back on.

The reason I'm in recovery is not because life magically became wonderful, it's because life couldn't get worse. None of my methods were effective so I gave up trying.

This makes sense. For me, I realized I would not overcome survival instinct. I did not on a night when the stars were aligned for me to feel that violent negative emotion required, so I decided to put the thought aside. Then - in hindsight it was unintentional - I started improving. Really, I was trying to minimize misery. I figured I may never be "happy," but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be the least "unhappy" possible.

From an outside perspective, it seems like you're doing pretty darn okay in "recovery," whether it's what you set out to do or not. That's tough. Minimize your misery rather than stewing in it.

 

[Pale_Rider]

It has become easier to think about my problems without breaking down. At first my head was spinning, and I went a little nuts. Ok a lot nuts, but I cant think about these things now. Thankful for this site, because now I am putting these traumas into words for the first time. Indeed I have made an appointment to see if I can work on the source of my suicidal ideations. Only time will tell if anything can be done. Yes Im aware there is no cure for DID.

 

[Jealous Blackheart]

I'd rather be depressed without back pain or stomach issues and with more reason to perceive myself well.

So I'd say that yes you are getting better. It's like the bars for your characters in the Sims games.

I like the way you worded this. "More reason to perceive myself well." It's a lot easier for me to accept something as an objective reality than something of subjective value when it comes to presenting myself. Let's take videogames as an example. If you ask me whether or not I'm good at a game I'd never be able to answer that question because I do not necessarily think that I am. But I can prove that I consistently make top division every season which objectively puts me among some small fraction of the best players.

I'm not required to feel anything about it for it to be true. Those are the types of things I'm focusing on in my recovery. Objective markers of improvement across selected areas of life. Like those bars in the sims games.

I definitely succeed in part out of spite. I'd say that is better wording than "revenge."

Spite also sounds like a better word. Three candidates to describe the sensation: competitive, vengeful, and spiteful. I think spite is a better word. Revenge sounds like it needs a victim and there is none.

What, I wonder, defines emotional competence?

My working definition for emotional competence has been the ability to identify (and express) one's own emotions. And other's for the more advanced.

My issue for a long time was that I had no idea what I was feeling when I felt things. Some simple emotions I was always familiar with like anger and disgust. I've gotten a lot better at it over the years since I started journaling but there's still a lot of room for improvement, clearly.

Emotional control would be closer to stoicism I think.

I started improving. Really, I was trying to minimize misery. I figured I may never be "happy," but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be the least "unhappy" possible.

This. Happiness is not the goal for me. I don't feel as though I'm missing something by not having it. If it happens I suppose that will be nice but my goals are more objective than that.

I appreciate the contribution and feedback.