Method Guns/firearms megathread

[TAW122]

Indeed, Threads and TiredHorse have all provided a lot of valuable information on this megathread. They are very knowledgeable about firearms and ballistics. Also readyasever also has quite a bit of firearm knowledge as well.

I've updated my OT (original topic) a bit to include information regarding other countries such as Asia and Australia. Some people who live in other parts of the world may have a much more difficult time when it comes to access to firearms so they may have to either travel to a country with less restrictive gun laws or find an alternative way to go about ctb via a firearm.

I don't go half measure when it comes to firearms. I don't want you becoming a vegetable or this person.

I've read the article and yes, this is rather sad to hear about someone using the wrong technique and then now that person is marked for life (probably never able to ctb via a firearm). Also, what irked me (sorry as this may be my atheist side showing) was the article mentioning that it was the angels that saved her life and stopped the bullet. I just have a hard time coming to terms with that. The more plausible and scientific explanation is that the bullet when it entered her chin, took a different trajectory due to the soft tissue, the angle at which the bullet entered, and physics played a big role in how the bullet traveled.

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I'll give a little story of my limited experience with firearms, just as something to think about.

TAW122's first time at the range:
I first went to a gun range, it was an indoor range and I fired a 9mm. The range officer was courteous and before I even handled any firearms, he took me to a classroom within the range facility and instructed me about safety and stuff. Despite not knowing much, I did pretty well and the crash course in safety and handling went well. A bit later, he took me to the actual range and handed me a Smith and Wesson M&P Shield 9mm. I believe I went through about 50 rounds and it was very, very loud (especially indoors and even with double hearing protection - ear plugs and ear muffs). The recoil was a bit strong as a first time shooter, but it did take a bit of time to get accustomed to. Needless to say, I did rather well according to the range officer as a first timer. I could have gone a bit more and also tried a shotgun, but I never did. I think I may have seen someone in another lane shoot one and generally one would position it close to one's shoulder (tucked in) and lean forward a bit to control the recoil. I've learned a lot that day and it further increased my respect and admiration for firearms in general (I always liked firearms as a kid even though that was my first time actually shooting a real gun), the power and the amount of damage it can do.

 

[TiredHorse]

Also, what irked me (sorry as this may be my atheist side showing) was the article mentioning that it was the angels that saved her life and stopped the bullet. I just have a hard time coming to terms with that. The more plausible and scientific explanation is that the bullet when it entered her chin, took a different trajectory due to the soft tissue, the angle at which the bullet entered, and physics played a big role in how the bullet traveled.

That wasn't an angel that saved her, that was bad aim and physics. Poor woman.

I like your account of your first time at the range, TAW122.

 

[TAW122]

In addition to Threads' posts regarding ballistics, here are a few more that I've found:

How far is a 12 gauge shotgun lethal: (skip to 4:08)


308 Winchester DRT round Ballistic Gel


Another 308 Winchester ballistic test on Iron Skillets (skip to 4:34)


These videos should demonstrate how powerful these rounds are and hopefully will give more reassurance to those wanting to ctb via firearms.

 

[dumbfarang]

hey guys, thanks for the great thread. i bought a beretta semi-auto handgun .40 and am scheduled to pick it up tomorrow. is this good enough to ctb? and is behind the ear or in the mouth more effective?

also im wondering about where i should do it. would a hotel be sufficient? i assume they wouldn't hear a gunshot at night or even what room to look at if they did hear it

 

[TiredHorse]

i bought a beretta semi-auto handgun .40 and am scheduled to pick it up tomorrow. is this good enough to ctb? and is behind the ear or in the mouth more effective?

A .40 should be plenty, especially if you're using hollowpoints.

As for in the mouth or behind the ear, it's personal preference, BUT take the time to really study the diagram showing where the brainstem is, and then spend some time in front of a mirror practicing aiming the gun. One of those two options may turn out to be easier for you, or give you more confidence. I prefer behind-the-ear, but if I had to choose one that would give a gun-novice their best chance of success, I would have to acknowledge that in-the-mouth might be better, just because you can at least see if you're aiming straight back.

Location of death is entirely up to you. There are too many variables and personal preferences for me to make suggestions.

 

[dumbfarang]

A .40 should be plenty, especially if you're using hollowpoints.

As for in the mouth or behind the ear, it's personal preference, BUT take the time to really study the diagram showing where the brainstem is, and then spend some time in front of a mirror practicing aiming the gun. One of those two options may turn out to be easier for you, or give you more confidence. I prefer behind-the-ear, but if I had to choose one that would give a gun-novice their best chance of success, I would have to acknowledge that in-the-mouth might be better, just because you can at least see if you're aiming straight back.

Location of death is entirely up to you. There are too many variables and personal preferences for me to make suggestions.

thanks tired horse!

 

[TAW122]

I prefer behind-the-ear, but if I had to choose one that would give a gun-novice their best chance of success, I would have to acknowledge that in-the-mouth might be better, just because you can at least see if you're aiming straight back.

This here. Being still a novice at firearms as I only ever fired a 9mm pistol at a gun range a few years ago, I'd recommend the mouth over the behind the ear. Also, if going via shotgun (which is what I am using when I ctb) loaded with #4 shot birdshot (I might even go and buy more ammo, preferably 00 buckshot after I obtain my firearm), the pellets should generally still destroy the brainstem even without a direct hit (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[MaryKay]

Please observe, everyone reading this: the woman used a .357Mag --incontestibly plenty of gun for the job!-- but she aimed it up under her chin. Right tool, wrong technique.

Recoil doesn't matter. By the time the recoil begins, the shot has left the barrel and you're dead.

And @Threads, whom I have come to have ever more respect for, has the right idea. Time to stop posting and let the info sink in.

What type of hand gun do you recommend? I plan to purchase a hand gun next week. I also plan on putting it in my mouth and angling it upward.

 

[TiredHorse]

What type of hand gun do you recommend? I plan to purchase a hand gun next week. I also plan on putting it in my mouth and angling it upward.

That is a question sure to inspire much heated, opinionated conversation.

I will reply authoritatively only that, assuming you are considering only handguns, .38 Special in revolvers and 9mm in semiautomatics would be the bare minimum you should purchase, and that those should be used with hollowpoints. Anything larger than those calibers will work and provide greater assurance of success. Aside from that, your choice should be guided by what you feel comfortable with, what you can afford, and what's available.

In my opinion --which is sure to be contested!-- if I were inexperienced with firearms, and looking at a gun purchase solely for the goal of ending my life, and I had educated myself properly and knew I would be putting it in my mouth, I would purchase a used .38 Special revolver, with a 4" barrel, with an exposed (not "shrouded") hammer, and I would load it with +P hollowpoints. The reason I like this combination is because:

1) used guns are cheaper
2) revolvers are mechanically simpler and more reliable than semiautos
3) revolvers typically attract less attention when being sold
4) .38 is both the minimum effective caliber for this, and a very common revolver caliber
5) a .38 is typically less expensive than a larger caliber, such as .357 (but if a .357 is the same price, definitely get the .357)
6) a 4" barrel is easy to handle, is long enough to allow you to see it and get a sense of aimpoint when it's in your mouth, and is the most common size (long barrels are for long range shooting)
7) an exposed hammer will allow you to cock it before pulling the trigger, resulting in a lighter trigger pull that is less likely to throw off your aim
8) +P hollowpoints are more powerful than standard ammo and thus more effective

Again, that is all my opinion, not an absolutist assurance of The One True Path.

 

[Herbalpompano75]

I was just going to take my AR (.223) and put it in my mouth at a slight angle up but honestly I'm still a little worried I'll miss or something so I may use my .300 win mag that'll definitely do it

 

[Arak]

I had assumed I couldn't get one, located in Europe at a place with very strong restrictions on firearms. Moving from country to country isn't like moving from state to state (USA).

Black powder ? Even if I could get one, I presume they are more cumbersome or require training. Never held a gun before. Even if I would get an 'ordinary' gun, I'd want to practice a few rounds before turning it on me. I'd need to aim for the brainstem, and handle the recoil or anything that comes along with it. I think black powder is more difficult, less reliable ? I wouldn't know where to get a 'real' gun.

 

[Retched]

Well, applied for my purchase permit today. I'll see if I'm approved. Takes 7-10 days.

 

[TAW122]

Well, applied for my purchase permit today. I'll see if I'm approved. Takes 7-10 days.

I hope you are successful in obtaining your purchase permit. Anyways, have you considered a long gun before (sorry if I had asked this before)? I find that long guns are generally easier to come by if one isn't necessarily able to obtain a handgun.

 

[Retched]

I hope you are successful in obtaining your purchase permit. Anyways, have you considered a long gun before (sorry if I had asked this before)? I find that long guns are generally easier to come by if one isn't necessarily able to obtain a handgun.

I filled out a firearm purchase permit, which includes long guns I believe. If/when I get a gun, it will be a handgun. Thanks though!

 

[TiredHorse]

Courtesy of @Stillnotsure, an excellent description of a temple shot and what happens when a region of the brain not the brainstem is damaged by a gunshot:

"There are three different lobes of the brain you could potentially hit with a temple shot, the frontal, parietal, and temporal lobes. Each lobe houses different body functions, the best bet for successfully dying quickly is aiming for a different section of the brain called the brain stem because it controls breathing and heart rate. You can die by temporal shots but it happens in a different way. The shot damages tissue and blood vessels in the brain causing swelling. As the brain swells it has nowhere to go. The only hole the brain can go through is in the bottom of the skull where it attaches to the spinal cord. This squishes the brain stem until it can't send the signal to breathe and beat your heart. While it is possible to bleed out from a gunshot to the head it is extremely unlikely, for the same reason I described above, there is limited space in the skull so the bleeding stops as the brain tissue swells."

 

[TAW122]

If for some chance I miss the brainstem (which shouldn't likely be the case as I would likely to have practiced endlessly, even taking into account the length of my barrel and whether I am sitting or standing), perhaps enough damage to all three lobes with significant amount of firepower coupled with being in a secluded area and barricaded, hopefully will be enough to ensure a successful attempt. I would also lean forward to account for the trigger pull which means if I'm aiming too low then the shifting/repositioning might just right at the brainstem perhaps?

I've tried sitting and standing while lowering my head as well as leaning slightly forward with the barrel in my mouth. While having a handgun is easier to aim, I'm working with a long gun so I've had to adjust a few things. If there is anything I can do differently let me know.

 

[ArtsyDrawer]

Any firearm dealers in Israel?

 

[Stillnotsure]

If for some chance I miss the brainstem (which shouldn't likely be the case as I would likely to have practiced endlessly, even taking into account the length of my barrel and whether I am sitting or standing), perhaps enough damage to all three lobes with significant amount of firepower coupled with being in a secluded area and barricaded, hopefully will be enough to ensure a successful attempt. I would also lean forward to account for the trigger pull which means if I'm aiming too low then the shifting/repositioning might just right at the brainstem perhaps?

I've tried sitting and standing while lowering my head as well as leaning slightly forward with the barrel in my mouth. While having a handgun is easier to aim, I'm working with a long gun so I've had to adjust a few things. If there is anything I can do differently let me know.

Looks like you've done your research. Like @TiredHorse said, aim low. It's better to miss low than high. With a shotgun the damage will be devastating and fatal anywhere from the top of the spine c1 and c2 area of the spine control breathing and heart rate. Aiming too high into the roof of the mouth is where you hear of people shooting their face off.

 

[Anubis901]

I have a .357 snub nose revolver and I've gone to the range to practice and get a feel for the recoil. It's a lot. I saw the question asked earlier, but I don't think I saw a response. Since aiming the gun backwards is awkward, I'm afraid the recoil will cause me to miss critical areas. Does anyone have suggestions on how to best minimize recoil to keep the muzzle pointed in the desired direction?

 

[TiredHorse]

I have a .357 snub nose revolver and I've gone to the range to practice and get a feel for the recoil. It's a lot. I saw the question asked earlier, but I don't think I saw a response. Since aiming the gun backwards is awkward, I'm afraid the recoil will cause me to miss critical areas. Does anyone have suggestions on how to best minimize recoil to keep the muzzle pointed in the desired direction?

It is a lot of recoil, isn't it? A snub-nose .357 is a jumpy little thing. Fortunately, this is perhaps the one shooting situation anyone will ever encounter where recoil is a complete non-issue: by the time you experience any recoil the bullet will already have done its work and you will already be dead.

Far more important is to avoid what shooters call "flinch", which is when you anticipate the shock of the discharge and preemptively pull the gun off target as you pull the trigger. One thing that helps you avoid this is to have a light trigger pull. To that end, can you cock your revolver so that it functions as a single action? Trigger pull is much lighter for a single action than for a double action, and "flinch" will not be as much of a problem.

The other factor working in your favor, to counteract "flinch", is that "flinching" typically pulls the aim of the gun down. If you aim at the brainstem but miss low, you're very likely to hit the spinal cord, which will be just as effective at killing you.

 

[Stillnotsure]

I have a .357 snub nose revolver and I've gone to the range to practice and get a feel for the recoil. It's a lot. I saw the question asked earlier, but I don't think I saw a response. Since aiming the gun backwards is awkward, I'm afraid the recoil will cause me to miss critical areas. Does anyone have suggestions on how to best minimize recoil to keep the muzzle pointed in the desired direction?

You can practice shooting a .357 with .38 special ammunition to experience less recoil. Do NOT attempt this with any other caliber ammunition. As to recoil and missing... don't worry about it. It's a cause and effect relationship. The gun recoils because the bullet has been fired. This means the bullet has already left the chamber before the gun moves any significant amount. What you have to focus on is aiming and pulling the trigger without also pulling the gun off to the side. If it is a double action revolver, cock the hammer before pulling the trigger. If it isn't, practice dry firing (make sure the gun is empty) in the desired position to make sure you can smoothly press the trigger without the barrel moving at all.

 

[Anubis901]

I can cock the gun as a single action - that is how I shot it at the range, and I also practiced with the .38 special ammunition to feel the difference. It was noticeable!
I also know that I flinched, so I'm well aware of that. I do plan to go back to the range to practice more, so that I can work on the flinching. I haven't shot in a few years, so I think once I do it a bit more, I'll feel a lot more comfortable. Not that it'll matter in the end, but my grouping at the range wasn't bad!
Thank you for your input on the recoil. That makes me feel a lot better.

 

[Stillnotsure]

I can cock the gun as a single action - that is how I shot it at the range, and I also practiced with the .38 special ammunition to feel the difference. It was noticeable!
I also know that I flinched, so I'm well aware of that. I do plan to go back to the range to practice more, so that I can work on the flinching. I haven't shot in a few years, so I think once I do it a bit more, I'll feel a lot more comfortable. Not that it'll matter in the end, but my grouping at the range wasn't bad!
Thank you for your input on the recoil. That makes me feel a lot better.

Plus if you don't use it to ctb, you will have developed an excellent hobby!

 

[TAW122]

Looks like you've done your research. Like @TiredHorse said, aim low. It's better to miss low than high. With a shotgun the damage will be devastating and fatal anywhere from the top of the spine c1 and c2 area of the spine control breathing and heart rate. Aiming too high into the roof of the mouth is where you hear of people shooting their face off.

Also, just got myself some managed-recoil Remington 00 buckshot just to feel more confident in my ctb, even though I think the Winchester Heavy load #4 shot is sufficient in ctb'ing.

 

[Retched]

So I've got my permit for over a week now and I am finding it really hard to go into a store and just say "I want to buy a gun" as I know virtually nothing about them. I understand too that people don't want more fodder against owning guns, as CTB with a firearm will always lend a hand in making gun ownership questionable. I'm not seeing any peaceful ways out for me though. Thank you for all the information here, at least I will see partially knowledgeable about guns. It was so easy to get the license. Not so easy to go in a purchase one.

 

[TAW122]

If you aren't comfortable purchasing one in person, you could buy one online then have it shipped to a licensed gun store (FFL dealer), and then just pick it up there. That's what I did when I got my Mossberg Maverick, granted I've known what I wanted ahead of time. If you aren't sure which weapon you are going to buy, I would recommend looking into different pistols and revolvers online, based on price, reliability, and reputation.

For pistols, Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm (I actually fired one at an indoor range many years ago) is a good one to consider. Also, you could look a few more from this video.

I don't know many revolvers that are also cheap and reliable.

Anyways, I hope this helps and that you will be able to choose a handgun that works for you.

 

[Anubis901]

You can also go to a firing range and rent a gun and practice with it. Maybe find a smaller range with friendly staff and explain that you aren't sure wha you want, they'd probably let you try different ones until you find one you're comfortable handling. Then you can feel more comfortable going into a store, or ordering online like @thrw_a_way1221221 recommended.

 

[Retched]

Thanks! I called around instead and asked what they had in used ones I am interested in that they may have in stock and turns out not many used ones, so they were able to discuss the pricing (which I had sticker shock!) but at least I called. I will go back to the small gun shop where the prices were a bit lower for the used guns and I am currently looking online. I almost went to a firing range today but did not. But that is a good idea to learn how to handle a gun...I just feel like a fish out of water at gun stores.

 

[Anubis901]

I just feel like a fish out of water at gun stores.

Me too! I made an appointment at a range for a private lesson. I explained that I was a new gun owner and wanted to feel comfortable with it. They explained the basic functionality and then I shot several rounds to get a feel for the recoil. By calling ahead of time, they were ready for me

 

[Retched]

Me too! I made an appointment at a range for a private lesson. I explained that I was a new gun owner and wanted to feel comfortable with it. They explained the basic functionality and then I shot several rounds to get a feel for the recoil. By calling ahead of time, they were ready for me

That's a great idea. There are a few shooting ranges here, I could probably handle that.