Venting Having children is very stupid, selfish, pointless, unfair, illogical, unethical, and unreasonable!

[davidtorez]

What people think of their own life is not as relevant as looking at other facts of life.

 

[Higurashi415]

@Higurashi415 No you made an assumption that I'm suffering terribly because I said having kids in general is a risk. It's not even based on my own experiences. People can look at the suffering of strangers and make that conclusion. Besides I've seen enough family in unbearable pain. I mean you're here as well so why are you disagreeing with what I'm saying like you're happy and coping fine? No need to even be here then is there if you've got life all figured out. And I think I'd be pretty upset if I really was say in horrible physical pain for you to then say "whatever you're going through is very rare" and try and make me feel even more of an outsider than I already do. No one talks about their pain anyway because this is always the type of response they get. Again you just assume everyone else is fine because talking about depression is still taboo and people like you don't wanna hear any negative talk.

You can speculate about why I made that assumption, but you don't have to, because I've told you why I did that. Again, if I was wrong in doing so I apologize. I feel like you're needlessly complicating things: the anti-natalist argument is fully fledged and nevertheless full of holes, such as the one I pointed at. Nothing I ever wrote in this forum suggests that I'm happy and I'm doing fine, including the posts in this thread, it was more like "We're struggling a lot, maybe even in a similar way, but most people aren't, not by a long shot". I think I've made it abundantly clear. Most people come here because they can't publicly discuss what we discuss here, hence my claim is clearly correct in most cases, it feels very weird that that specific point gets challenged in this specific forum, but here we are.

This is not a debate about depression (whatever that means, anyway), you're venting out thoughts that are rooted in anti-natalism and are vaguely associated to a depressive state but not even necessarily so, which is completely fine, and I'm trying to go a step beyond that. My claim really applies to any non-adaptive deviance from the mean, but you mentioned depression so I'll use it as an example. Most people are not depressed, so if you're experiencing depression and depressive thoughts you are NOT like most people. Do we agree on that? If we agree on that, your point about kids being a bad idea makes absolutely no sense, which is what I was actually referring to and I made that abundantly clear. That is because a kid will probably NEVER be depressed throughout his/her life, so everything you're saying does not apply.

You said both that my talk is negative, and that I don't want to hear negative talk. Pick one.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

@Higurashi415 yeah we know everyone else apparently loves life we just don't need it beating into us constantly on here of all places. It came across as an attack not "hey I know what you're going through cos I'm here as well" which would've been fine.

it was more like "We're struggling a lot, maybe even in a similar way, but most people aren't, not by a long shot".

You didn't say anything like that, might've been helpful if you had.

I'm not really talking about depression as my idea of suffering has always primarily been physical pain. You came at it from a depression viewpoint by the assumption of me being here so I must be "suffering". Believe me I'd have CTB long ago at the first sign of my idea of suffering. Depression I'm used to, felt it all my life, wouldn't even bother to try and treat it. I'm unhappy and miserable yeah but I don't feel I'm "suffering". For all you know I'm talking about people getting cancer or any other limitless ways one can suffer and nothing to do with depression, just your wrong assumptions again. And why does it matter if most kids won't ever be depressed? Some inevitably will and I didn't say it was 100% I said it was a RISK, that's just a fact and no parent knows if their kid will be the unlucky one. So everything I said still applies.

 

[Higurashi415]

@Higurashi415 yeah we know everyone else apparently loves life we just don't need it beating into us constantly on here of all places. It came across as an attack not "hey I know what you're going through cos I'm here as well" which would've been fine.


You didn't say anything like that, might've been helpful if you had.

I'm not really talking about depression as my idea of suffering has always primarily been physical pain. You came at it from a depression viewpoint by the assumption of me being here so I must be "suffering". Believe me I'd have CTB long ago at the first sign of my idea of suffering. Depression I'm used to, felt it all my life, wouldn't even bother to try and treat it. I'm unhappy and miserable yeah but I don't feel I'm "suffering". For all you know I'm talking about people getting cancer or any other limitless ways one can suffer and nothing to do with depression, just your wrong assumptions again. And why does it matter if most kids won't ever be depressed? Some inevitably will and I didn't say it was 100% I said it was a RISK, that's just a fact and no parent knows if their kid will be the unlucky one. So everything I said still applies.

The reason I'm stating the obvious (the fact that everyone else apparently loves life) is due to the fact that you're acting like most people are doomed to be as depressed as we are, thus having kids is a bad idea. That's the whole point.

You're absolutely right, re-reading what I first wrote in the way you interpreted it sounds very different from what I had in mind. My bad, I should've worded that a bit differently. The reason I think it's somewhat positive is that I view it like... my life is a mess, but that could very well be because my brain doesn't function normally (especially the part that regulates emotions, in my case). I doubt regular people with my brain would do much better.
But this wasn't at all what I wrote, apologies.

I do think my point still applies, though. When a person crosses the street they are fully aware that a drunk driver could run them over, but because the probability of that happening isn't really that high they do it anyway.
Because of that, if you see a random person crossing the street, you wouldn't bet on them being ran over by a drunk driver, would you? You'd be almost always wrong. That's kinda the point. We're always taking calculated risks. Random guy thinks his kid will have a decent life, and he's probably right, his random kid will probably have a decent life. In no way can this be considered a bad approximation.

And look, unless you're willing to write a book at every reply I'm obviously going to make assumptions, if my assumptions are wrong just point it out and I'll fix that no problem. Same applies to you. I don't know you and you don't know me.

 

[EmptyBottle]

I wonder whether this thread will end up getting locked, Hopefully it doesn't tho. (I remember a thread about magnum that degraded and got locked)

 

[Box]

I do think my point still applies, though. When a person crosses the street they are fully aware that a drunk driver could run them over, but because the probability of that happening isn't really that high they do it anyway.

hm, yeah i see your point. but i don't think it's comparable. around 8.3% of adults experienced at least one episode of major depression in 2021. and that is one single year. not to mention other illnesses or situations that make life not worth living. when i think about the people in my life, there are actually a lot of people that would have preferred not to have been born, maybe even the majority.
also i think that preventing suffering has a higher value than the possibility of a positive outcome. what does the average life matter? no one would have cared if they hadn't been born. if the person is never born, happiness and a good life is not taken away, it never existed in the first place. so i think preventing one "bad life" is way more important than bringing 10 mediocre or good lifes into the world

 

[SilentSadness]

It is an obvious, basic fact that having children is morally bankrupt. Most people are viciously against this simply because of natural selection, the most horrifying process to exist. All suffering and problems are unnecessary and due to procreation. It is somewhat amazing to see people still defend it so intensely when it is so deeply wrong, but it's important to remember that natural selection caused this.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

I read this thread, I don't really get it, why should I care about the reality of others? I know having children is bad for the kind of world we live in, the end, I know I'm right...? The debate basically ends right there, actually, what debate? usually pro-lifers wouldn't even consider my position in the first place, so I don't consider theirs, I'd save a random animal before a pro-lifer.

 

[needwaytohell]

I agree with almost every point mentioned here although irl ppl think I'm insane for stating these.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

I wonder whether this thread will end up getting locked, Hopefully it doesn't tho. (I remember a thread about magnum that degraded and got locked)

There was a thread a couple months back on this subject and it was just getting into a good debate then it got locked. To be fair I was partly responsible because I was calling parents some choice names (won't repeat them lol) but basically along the lines of this thread title. Anyway I won't do that this time. I do like a good debate-well it kills some time for me at least.

The reason I'm stating the obvious (the fact that everyone else apparently loves life) is due to the fact that you're acting like most people are doomed to be as depressed as we are, thus having kids is a bad idea. That's the whole point.

You're absolutely right, re-reading what I first wrote in the way you interpreted it sounds very different from what I had in mind. My bad, I should've worded that a bit differently. The reason I think it's somewhat positive is that I view it like... my life is a mess, but that could very well be because my brain doesn't function normally (especially the part that regulates emotions, in my case). I doubt regular people with my brain would do much better.
But this wasn't at all what I wrote, apologies.

I do think my point still applies, though. When a person crosses the street they are fully aware that a drunk driver could run them over, but because the probability of that happening isn't really that high they do it anyway.
Because of that, if you see a random person crossing the street, you wouldn't bet on them being ran over by a drunk driver, would you? You'd be almost always wrong. That's kinda the point. We're always taking calculated risks. Random guy thinks his kid will have a decent life, and he's probably right, his random kid will probably have a decent life. In no way can this be considered a bad approximation.

And look, unless you're willing to write a book at every reply I'm obviously going to make assumptions, if my assumptions are wrong just point it out and I'll fix that no problem. Same applies to you. I don't know you and you don't know me.

I appreciate you apologising-maybe I do overreact sometimes as it's a bit of a sensitive subject for me. I still think we're kinda misunderstanding each other as you're primarily focused on depression and someone's kid having a decent life overall and I'm thinking about the fact they WILL suffer at some point. Maybe it'll take until they're 70 but really horrible stuff happens at the end of life to the majority of people. I mean when is the last time you heard that someone passed away in their sleep? Dying is painful, losing a loved one is painful (it'll happen to all of us) these are part of the life experience. That kid will probably die of cancer or dementia one day, maybe the parent doesn't think it matters as they won't be around to see it but I very much think it does matter. Do you not think death is a harm? Most of us are still here because we can't do it despite wanting to. Like I said before it'll probably take horrible physical suffering to push me to actually do it. And it's not because I love life so much! It's because death is so scary and painful. It's amazing how we can have such different views on the imposition of an almost certain painful death inflicted on us by our parents.

 

[asleepforever]

there was this philosopher, Emil Cioran, his philosophy and thinking about having kids was something like this. He also said that being born is the worst thing that can happen to us, he's really interesting if yall want to read it

 

[L9 CHOCOIRL]

Having children is very bad, dumb, stupid, selfish, pointless, wrong, unfair, illogical, unethical, and unreasonable!

Having children is very stupid, selfish, pointless, unfair, illogical, unethical, and unreasonable! Having children doesn't make any sense! This world is VERY bad, evil, cruel, corrupt, crazy, wicked, and unfair! Most things in life are just simply out of your control! Most things in this world are just simply out of our control! When it happens it happens! When you finally see and realize that then why do we need to have children? By having children we're just creating more pain and suffering in this world! Having children is just creating more problems for this world!

We never asked to be born! We can't pick and choose our biological parents and family! We can't pick and choose our genetics! We can't pick our race, skin color, or gender! We can't pick our nationality! We can't pick our looks! We can't pick our height! We can't pick what year or time period to be born in! We can't pick what town, city, state, or country we were born in! We can't pick how much wealth you are born into! We don't have a choice at all! It's not fair!

People who are poor, dumb, stupid, and ugly should NOT have children! All they're doing is making and creating more poor, dumb, stupid, and ugly people! This world is overpopulated! We have more than enough people on this planet! We don't need any more! Most people are NOT fit, ready, qualified, or capable of being parents! Most people have children for very stupid and selfish reasons! They don't know what they are doing! Most people have children just so they can fit in with society! They only do it because they see others do it! That's it! Monkey see Monkey do! This world is terrible mostly because humans are terrible most of the time! Not everyone has a fair chance at life!

i have a child his name is actually @damienlerone03 and the father is @whitetaildeer and they are the goats

 

[davidtorez]

there was this philosopher, Emil Cioran, his philosophy and thinking about having kids was something like this. He also said that being born is the worst thing that can happen to us, he's really interesting if yall want to read it

His stuff is fantastic

 

[happysunnydayy]

Maybe it would be slightly fairer if we were freely allowed to leave and had access to reliable and painless means but, that isn't allowed either!

Yes, fellow anti-natilist here. I do love my parents but I hate what they inflicted on me.

Yeah if dying peacefully was legal then I won't even be mad at people breeding.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yeah if dying peacefully was legal then I won't even be mad at people breeding.

It would certainly help. The trouble though is- when would that option become available? Most people settle on 18 as being the youngest we are able to make such big decisions in life. If someone hates life though, that's already 18 years of misery. So, while I think it would help, it still isn't the 'best' solution- to my mind. It's still an 18 year experiment/ experience of suffering for some.

 

[davidtorez]

The reason I'm stating the obvious (the fact that everyone else apparently loves life) is due to the fact that you're acting like most people are doomed to be as depressed as we are, thus having kids is a bad idea. That's the whole point.

You're absolutely right, re-reading what I first wrote in the way you interpreted it sounds very different from what I had in mind. My bad, I should've worded that a bit differently. The reason I think it's somewhat positive is that I view it like... my life is a mess, but that could very well be because my brain doesn't function normally (especially the part that regulates emotions, in my case). I doubt regular people with my brain would do much better.
But this wasn't at all what I wrote, apologies.

I do think my point still applies, though. When a person crosses the street they are fully aware that a drunk driver could run them over, but because the probability of that happening isn't really that high they do it anyway.
Because of that, if you see a random person crossing the street, you wouldn't bet on them being ran over by a drunk driver, would you? You'd be almost always wrong. That's kinda the point. We're always taking calculated risks. Random guy thinks his kid will have a decent life, and he's probably right, his random kid will probably have a decent life. In no way can this be considered a bad approximation.

And look, unless you're willing to write a book at every reply I'm obviously going to make assumptions, if my assumptions are wrong just point it out and I'll fix that no problem. Same applies to you. I don't know you and you don't know me.

Your analogy is not entirely comparable to the risk and consent argument given by antinatalists. In this scenario you depicted the person crossing the road is making their own decision to cross the road. To make it more directly analogous to the antinatalist argument it would be this. Imagine pushing someone across the road without their consent saying it was for their benefit and then saying dont worry the risk isn't high of getting hit by a car (which isn't analogous too to the extent risk and amount of harms that can befall us).

 

[damienlerone03]

i have a child his name is actually @damienlerone03 and the father is @whitetaildeer and they are the goats

MOMMMMMM! STOP!! THATS embarrassing...... grrr

 

[RoseGirl]

i love kids and they deserve a chance to see the beauty of the world :3
even tho I can't have kids myself I'd still like to adopt.

 

[davidtorez]

i love kids and they deserve a chance to see the beauty of the world :3
even tho I can't have kids myself I'd still like to adopt.

Adoption is amazing! If i had the finances and stable living situation and mentally stable i would also adopt!

 

[SchizoGymnast]

For most people, I would agree this is true. They're viruses bent on self replication.

 

[damienlerone03]

Adoption is amazing! If i had the finances and stable living situation and mentally stable i would also adopt!

I read about a man who fostered children. Specifically, those who were terminally ill and nearing the end of their lives. It was incredibly heartbreaking, but also deeply beautiful. He made sure that each of those children spent their remaining time surrounded by love. He loved them as if they were his own, and in the short time they shared, they truly were. He and his wife fostered over 80 of these children.

I can't imagine the emotional toll this must have taken on him. But honestly, being on a site like this can numb you to death; many of the friends you make here pass away all the time. If I make it through this, I would absolutely consider doing something like that one day.

I read about a man who fostered children. Specifically, those who were terminally ill and nearing the end of their lives. It was incredibly heartbreaking, but also deeply beautiful. He made sure that each of those children spent their remaining time surrounded by love. He loved them as if they were his own, and in the short time they shared, they truly were. He and his wife fostered over 80 of these children.

I can't imagine the emotional toll this must have taken on him. But honestly, being on a site like this can numb you to death; many of the friends you make here pass away all the time. If I make it through this, I would absolutely consider doing something like that one day.

ah well not just this site, also real life. Because online interactions with people and real life interactions are still different in a way.