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Suffering is something that's inevitable in life. Along with that, me being vegan isn't going to magically stop other animals from being mistreated. I personally don't really want to have cut out a large portion of foods from my diet when it probably wouldn't even do shit to change anything anyway.
the animal is already dead so idgaf you can't hurt somethings thats already dead
Same.
I don't want to derail the thread but this is a serious question and so far, I never got a satisfying answer from a vegan.
It genuinely doesn't bother me at all but then again I'm an evil person anyway. Food just happens to taste better to me if someone or something involved suffered along the way. I've had Impossible or Beyond meat before but while they taste alright, I honestly found them even tastier when combining them with meat.
reducing-suffering.org
I have heard vegans say that it's not ethical to breed obligate carnivores (like cats) since this would lead to more livestock suffering as you say. I'm inclined to think similarly. But realistically, cats and dogs already exist—plenty of pets are rescues/adoptees—and arguably unlike humans, they do need to eat meat (cats, certainly... I'm not so sure what the deal is with dogs).
20% of people who return to meat for health don't get it fully back.
do you think that if everyone who had the mindset "I'm one person, I can't make a difference" went vegan, that would make a difference?
www.globalvegans.com
but by eating meat, we create more demand for it, so more animals are bred to suffer/ be slaughtered
it can be tiring and inconvenient being vegetarian/vegan, I agree
I appreciate if you're suffering a lot already, giving something up that makes things a bit better for you feels overwhelming. I definitely sometimes miss dairy and want to comfort eat. Can I ask - how do you feel about other aspects of veganism? E.g. not using animal tested products, wearing fur etc?
I appreciate that and I'm sorry you're suffering so much
The issue is that most people aren't going to drop everything and become vegan. Along with that, animal suffering wouldn't stop if people were to drop that mindset because a lot of the people who choose not to be vegan are doing so for a variety of reasons outside of that mindset. The suffering of animals would still continue because the mistreatment of animals in this case stems from costs. Things, like factory farming, aid in maximizing profits and limiting costs. I'd imagine that campaigning for the government to put laws in place to prevent animal maltreatment would probably do more to prevent their suffering in comparisons to trying to get everyone to go vegan.
I don't expect a lot of people to drop everything and become vegan either, but I think the more individuals that go vegan, the more the vegan movement will grow over time, and it can eventually make a significant difference. I see what you're saying on the second point, but I'm not sure I agree that's true
I understand it can feel difficult and restricting going vegan, but I disagree that a vegan diet is less healthy - most health bodies will say you can get all the nutrients you need on a vegan diet, and it does arguably have some health benefits. To answer the second question - I don't think vegans like giving meat to their cats/dogs at all, and if they knew for sure there was a healthy plant based alternative, they would feed their pets that (or they may give them lab grown meat in future). Something that makes it a bit easier for me is knowing that the cat food I give my cat is a byproduct of the meat industry, but I'm still not comfortable with it. But "most of these animals are produced and raised to be sold to and kept by people" - in response to this point, most vegans are against breeding, and only have cats/dogs from rescue shelters.
I admit I am not the best example. I don't feel I eat well, but I think that would still apply if I ate animal products. Though somehow, when I've had my blood tested, I'm not deficient in any nutrients, so I guess I am physically "healthy". I suffer really badly from depression so I don't really have the motivation to cook. But yes, you definitely can be healthy on a plant based diet, and I'm not necessarily sure it takes that much more effort to eat a plant based diet than not, there are simple plant based meals you can have - I think the effort comes in adjusting from what you're used to and learning the alternatives to what you had before. I'm sorry you've suffered from headaches but I'm glad the iron supplements help even if it's not ideal. In terms of protein, you might like to look at https://www.acti-veg.com/?s=protein.
I understand that you want people to go vegan and all, but you kind of have to accept the fact that most people probably aren't going to. Veganism isn't the most accessible diet out there and a lot of people aren't going to want cut out foods that they like for it. To add onto this, certain points that vegans commonly make about animals suffering don't apply to many places around the world. For example, farm animals in my mom's country are actually treated fairly well and are able to roam around freely. By the time they are about to he slaughtered many of them have already lived very good lives.
I like the taste of meat and it's a more convenient way to achieve a balanced diet. I'm as careful as I can be about where the meat comes from (often a farm down the road from me where they live outdoors with everything they need and when the time comes are sent to a slaughterhouse known for being more humane in the process than most). Imo, better a well lived short life is better than a long life of suffering, and seeing the pigs and lambs playing in the field and looking well and healthy assuages any guilt. I think many pets which are "loved" by their owners suffer just as much as some farm animals, and sometimes more, but have their existence and suffering prolonged for the sake of their human. I'm thinking of squashed face dogs like bulldogs of every type which can't breathe and usually can't give birth naturally, suffer with horrible eye, joint and skin problems. The working type dogs that should be healthy but often have hip dysplasia and some having to have hip replacements in their early years. Dachshunds with a 50% chance of having paralysing spinal problems. Great Danes with a 50% chance of getting a twisted stomach which is agonising and rapidly fatal, or dying from other problem before the age of 8yrs. Scottish fold cats with horrible joint problems due to the defects in their cartilage that make the ears cute and folded. Obesity in all our pets. "Heroic" surgeries which should never be performed but are done because the owner is too selfish to see the suffering prolonging the animal's life causes. Pet birds kept in small cages. Small pets which should live in groups kept alone. Cats kept in multiples in one house when that is an unnatural environment for a cat and often very stressful. Keeping goldfish in a small tank and sometimes alone, so they often die after a couple of years when, if in a larger enclosure they can live for 30 years, and people not knowing they should have company. I'd better stop there but you get my gist. I suppose the answer is, it's complicated but my ethics say that a shorter good life is better than a longer bad life. And yes I do know of the cruelty associated with many farming methods, especially outside the UK. But there are some good, humane farmers out there too and I'm lucky enough to live near one such farm.
I wonder if you watched "Earthlings", you might find it actually does bother you - maybe you're just more drained and burnt out than "evil"
I think being plant based is becoming more and more accessible, though I appreciate being 100% plant based is not possible for *everyone* (e.g. some indigenous people, people in food deserts) - veganism is about doing what is possible and practisable. I do kind of think if people have the view "most people won't go vegan" it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy - no one thinks anyone else will do anything, so no one does themselves. Unfortunately I disagree on the second point. There might be some animals who have led good lives up until slaughter (though then isn't it wrong to slaughter them, if they want to live?) - but in reality, there is so much awful treatment of farm animals - all around the world (and the slaughter process can be terrible too). Have you seen "Earthlings"? That is horrific and sadly standard practice. What makes you think the animals are treated well? I think the animals treated "well" are more of the exception, plus farmers have an incentive to be dishonest about how "well" animals are treated
I'm not sure there's much evidence for the first two points you make - do you have any sources?
I can understand the first point, particularly if you're depressed, it can feel overwhelming to change your dietFor me it is a largely a lack of willpower. I'm dependent on my parents and eat what they eat, and though I could simply make my own meals every day, I genuinely don't have the energy for that. Certainly not an excuse, but that's why.
It's also worth mentioning I don't think death is intrinsically bad; I think if animals live healthy lives and are slaughtered humanely no harm is done, or at least, any potential cost will be outweighed by the benefits. Unfortunately, most meat comes from factory farms, so eating meat is probably unethical is most scenarios, since culinary pleasure most likely does not occur on a scale that outweighs the essential torture that factory farmed animals go through.
That said, I don't really understand some of the reasons given in this thread. Sure, when you're at the store deciding whether to buy meat or not, the animal you're potentially going to eat is already dead, but every person who reduces their meat consumption has an impact, however minuscule, on the level of meat production in the world, and those minuscule impacts add up. Animal suffering and suffering in the world, in general, exists on a continuum. It's obvious that going vegan/eating ethically sourced meat won't lead to the total elimination of suffering but it's equally obvious that it would reduce it to some measure, which is why some people bother at all.
I'm not trying to be sanctimonious; I can't, because as mentioned, I do eat meat. It just bothers me that so many arguments against veganism seem so illogical. I think vegans generally have the moral high ground and it's annoyed me in the past to see them being nutpicked or memed (especially when the punchline is just something about how great bacon tastes). I think it's at least partially because of the cognitive dissonance it creates, especially for people who think life has intrinsic value, like most outside of this site.
Other points:
I find it hard to believe that the existence of crop deaths implies that vegans are implicitly hurting animals more than meat-eaters, considering that both meat-eaters and livestock also eat said crops.
Not all animals are equal. Consider cows and chickens, for instance. Not only does the average chicken live in worse conditions than the average cow, but chickens are much smaller than cows. That is, some amount of cooked chicken is the result of more suffering than the same amount of cooked beef. For similar reasons, eating eggs causes more suffering than eating a similar amount of dairy. And as said before, considering animal suffering is a continuum, I think it makes sense to choose to eat meat that has suffered less, so to speak.
How Much Direct Suffering Is Caused by Various Animal Foods?
Since animal suffering exists on a continuum I also don't understand why eating meat is typically conceived of as a dichotomy; reducing one's meat consumption even by, say, 50%, would naturally have some impact.
I can certainly accept that for some people, it's simply not viable from a health point of view to cut out meat from one's diet. I do find it hard to believe that this applies to everyone considering the availability of vitamin supplements and other protein sources in most developed places and the fact that plenty of vegans do exist. But I'd stand to be corrected there.
I have heard vegans say that it's not ethical to breed obligate carnivores (like cats) since this would lead to more livestock suffering as you say. I'm inclined to think similarly. But realistically, cats and dogs already exist—plenty of pets are rescues/adoptees—and arguably unlike humans, they do need to eat meat (cats, certainly... I'm not so sure what the deal is with dogs).
maybe you're not any more selfish than the average person, maybe you're suffering and overwhelmed? I think you would care more if you watched something like "Earthlings", yes :(
may I ask what your source for this is?
I wonder if you knew more about the reality of how animals are treated, if you'd feel differently
in response to the eating disorder point - I can understand that. I think you can still engage in other aspects of veganism, e.g. not buying animal tested products.
I can understand it's hard if you're really depressed, giving up comfort food - although I would say there are more and more nice tasting vegan alternatives out there. I don't think being plant based requires any more cooking than not being plant based. Also, being plant based can be really cheap - it depends on what you buy
I agree a short well lived life is better than a long life of suffering, but some of these animals could live happy lives for much longer, if they really are being treated well. What about lambs? They don't get a chance at life at all. Generally, animals people eat are *not* treated humanely, or slaughtered humanely, and they are being killed without their consent. I agree with all of your points about pets - we shouldn't breed animals that are likely to suffer or prolong their lives if they are suffering - but I'm not really sure how this is relevant - vegans will agree with this, and they generally won't agree with shooting /trapping/poisoning animals or birds either. Instead of using pesticides, we can do things like planting 'barrier' plants for insects to eat - there are other options. On the whole, if everyone was plant based, there would be much, much, less suffering
Never watched or heard of that but if the theme is that humans are being treated the way we treat livestock I don't think that will convince me in any way. I'd eat human if it was safe, legal, and appetizing, that's how little I care. I am very burnt out but that doesn't and shouldn't excuse my evil.
But lets face it. None of your hopes will actually happen. And i don't agree that if everyone was plant based there'd be much much less suffering. Far from it for the reasons I've stated about how farming processes are deemed necessary already to cope with current demand. And like I said. I like the taste of meat. And I don't count death as suffering. A dead animal doesn't suffer, only live ones do. And if man has no use for animals, he exterminates them so we'd have no animals left, because taking it further, we shouldn't even keep them as pets, and farm animals and pet animals are not able to cope in the wild.
