It is very hard to remind yourself that your subjective experience is not the universal truth (especially, when the pain is overwhelming)

[noname223]

There are many people saying life is beautiful. The strongest desire of many people is to procreate. Most people are scared as shit to lose their life. With antinatalism and similar beliefs we are a small minority. But a growing one. The more education, the less children. But there are many extremely intelligent people who procreate. They probably also have good genes and see an inherent value in life. If you are extremely privileged, many people might think you can pass that good life quality to your children. And we just went the wrong nihilistic rabbit hole.

But people like me and you exist. People whose life is a living hell. With barely prospects for change. And our biggest desire is to not wake up after we fall asleep. I think the average person does not like to think about us. We are tragic fates of individuals. A part of life. Nature and biology can be cruel. I have the feeling nature itself sees no value in human life in the way it treats it. Humans should see value in human life but not with the notion keep them alive no matter. No, give all people enough food, a home, safety, a reason to stay alive. And then give people the choice.

Think about the people in Palestine. Or in Southsudan. I mean I think I am going through a torture chamber every single day. But bro it can always become worse. There is like no end. And they frighten suicidal people. They scare them with prohibiting safe and human methods. No we have to fear even more surviving with damage, ending up as a vegetable, getting a punishment for trying to ctb. Last October when police came to my house, they were friendly police men doing their job. They joked I probably will get into a lot of trouble for ordering something illegal to kill me. Well, SN is not illegal, it is openly sold on the internet. I lectured them, they googled it and well... I know where they are coming from. But this is cynical to treat suicidal people like that. I was in this acute suicide clinic and I think some of the patients had severe brain damage from attempts. I get pretty angry at the society that they let that happen. People with the most horrible lives get punished even more. And even when they are in more extreme pain they don't help them to die. Even if life consists only of torture.
This is absolutely disgusting and probably a crime to humanity. And in the future they will look with disdain to our epoch where they let something like that happen. And then mainstream media has the audacity to demonize this forum. I read some science articles that were way more nuanced than the clickbait journalist articles.

I already made this argument in my self-help group once and they are more normies. There are 8 billion people on this planet. Without any doubts there exist many lives which are beyond any imagination extreme torture. At a level barely anyone can imagine. This forum is full of stories. And bro most of us come from rich, Western countries. Imagine the developed world. Countries where child mutilation is a common practice, with civil wars, drug cartells running the country. I think even only looking at very rich countries one can see the pain of some individuals outweighs the "happniness" of the rest. Imagine Palestine. Literally all citizens will have PTSD, won't receive medication for it, no therapy, no welfare net, no prospects for a better life, no proper education. Only misery.

Imagine all the unbelievable crimes againist humanity that happened in the last centuries. Or in the Middle Ages. This is all fucking perverted. And we just keep the ball rolling. People try to fade out fates like us. Until it hits them. People lack empathy. When my granddad had dementia people made jokes about him. Not mocking him. But they considered it somehwat funny an old man talking bullshit. But I saw it in his face and eyes. It must be a frightening experience. I had psychosis I know how scary it is losing your sanity.

People just keep going. That's life. We acccepted it. There are good and bad things in life. And if people talk about the bad things too often? Blame them for their unhappniness. Cancel them for trauma dumping. Scare them. Pressure them to keep living. To accept one's misery. And if they create a community, a safe space. Pretend there was no fundamental difference between correlation and causation. Pretend the place was the reason they want to die.

 

[CatLvr]

Jesus Christ, dude, tl;dr and the answer to the title is "no". No, it is NOT hard to believe that MY truth is the only truth. (OK ADDED TEXT HERE AFTER RE-READING MY COMMENT: WHILE I DID NOT PHRASE IT LIKE ENGLISH IS MY FIRST LANGUAGE I MEANT TO SAY THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY ANYONE WOULD COME TO THAT CONCLUSION. I THINK THE ASTERISKED COMMENT BELOW SHOWS THAT EVEN THOUGH IT LOOKS LIKE FROM THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE I SAID THR EXACT OPPOSITE. SORRY ... SHOOT ME ... PLEASE ... AND YES, I DO BELIEVE THAT IT IS NOT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE THAT SELF-CENTERED. ) Or the "universal" truth. How self-centered does a person have to be to even come to that as a "logical" thought process.**




**Yes, I know, because apparently a LOT of people DO, in fact, think that. One of the many reasons I really do not like people as a whole. Certain individuals are exceptional people -- better than I could ever hope to be -- but people, as a whole, are HIGHLY overrated.

EDIT: CAPITALIZED EXPLANATION OF JUST HOW THINGS CAN GET TURNED AROUND IN A POST IN ALL CAPS IN FIRST PARAGRAPH. SORRY MODS! I IMAGINE HALF THE BOARD IS CALLING FOR MY HEAD RIGHT NOW.

 

[noname223]

Jesus Christ, dude, tl;dr and the answer to the title is "no". No, it is not hard to believe that MY truth is the only truth. Or the "universal" truth. How self-centered does a person have to be to even come to that as a "logical" thought process.**




**Yes, I know, because apparently a LOT of people DO, in fact, think that. One of the many reasons I really do not like people as a whole. Certain individuals are exceptional people -- better than I could ever hope to be -- but people, as a whole, are HIGHLY overrated.

Read beyond the first paragraph.

If you don't do that. My argument is people with good lives cannot (and probably don't want/don't like to) imagine how bad life actually can become.

 

[CatLvr]

Read beyond the first paragraph.

If you don't do that. My argument is people with good lives cannot (and probably don't want/don't like to) imagine how bad life actually can become.

Ehhhh ... I dunno. I don't think that people are completely incapable of empathy. So ... I guess we are gonna disagree on that point, too. Btw, I usually enjoy your ... Uhmmm ... What do you want to call them?? Posts seems so, uhmm superficial, because it is obvious you put a lot of thought into most of what you post. But I am just not comfortable saying that just because someone is so and so, or such and such, or this, that or the other, they can't, won't, don't whatever. People are nothing if not unpredictable.

Eta: and I just re-read my first post and realize I didn't put a VERY important word in my comment. Lol No wonder everyone is so bent. I'll go fix it ... The only rule of Fight Club that matters: NEVER take yourself too seriously, Catlvr!! Thank goodness I don't -- otherwise I'd be perfect.

 

[Dejected 55]

It might be semantics, but... my subjective experience IS my universal truth. It isn't necessarily yours or that of anyone else.

I recognize that my subjective experience is potentially unique to me OR at least not automatically the same as the experience of anyone else. So, I allow for the possibility that someone else can have a different subjective experience that they are able to enjoy, whereas I cannot.

However... there are people in the world who have a similar enough subjective experience to me who somehow view their experience more favorably than I do... and that seems weird to me. That is a harder pill to swallow.

 

[TheVanishingPoint]

I understand you, and I agree with a great deal of it, but I believe there is still something missing. You are making a distinction between those who idolize life as an undiluted good and those who, like us, recognize its horror. But the optimist, the so-called pro-life, is not merely a man who "sees things differently" and, in good faith, deludes himself on the beauty of being. No: the optimist has too clear a view that life is misery, disease, decay, and ultimate death, usually in circumstances far removed from dignity. He or she perceives too clearly the bleak fact of disease, senility, accident, loss; death seldom being a serene goodbye but a torment, a relentless breaking down of body and brain. And yet, aware as they seem to be, they opt to give birth, to "give life." It is a conscious action: to give birth to a human being is never an innocent action, it is a pre-emptive sentence. It is to consciously choose to have someone suffer a fate of sickness, suffering, and death.

The nihilist antinatalist is not an oppressor, though. They don't make illusions, they don't offer paradises. They just break off, they discontinue the chain. Nothing is more moral than an action that allows others not to be born to be harmed. The contrast is abysmal: pro-life finishes the sentence, the nihilist attempts to end it.

And here is the worst part of it: the optimist not only copies, but wishes to impose their ideal on everyone as universal. Not only do they yell, "for me, life is worth it," but have the right to lock a suicidal child into psychiatry, to subject them to unwanted treatments, to take away liberty in the name of a dogma. This is not respect for life: it is love disguised as violence. There is no true pro-life which is ethically inconsistent with self-determination. For if they really did think that life has intrinsic worth, they would not have to impose it: life would speak for itself. But instead, the pro-life understands that life does not persuade, and therefore protects it by way of violence, censorship, intimidation. Even the so-called "neutral" policies steal the same rationale: they tell one from on high what one can think and say, and suppress the rest. They don't safeguard: they exercise authority.

The pro-life, therefore, is no sentimental idealist. They are an adjustment-committed animal who invents a thousand mechanisms religious, cultural, moral to plug in the vacuity, to conceal the lack of meaning and purpose in their existence. But these fictions are never sufficient: and it is for this reason that they require other people to believe them as well. Not out of generosity, but out of desperation. For if they were left alone with the cold fact that to live is to suffer and to die their whole structure would fall apart.

And thus indeed you are right: society treats the suicides as criminals, punishes the desperate, deprives choice of freedom to those in greatest need of it. But let us not be content with the maxim that "everyone has his own point of view." The optimistic attitude is not naive, it is militant. It does not respect, it imposes. And only truly genuine ethics, if we are still allowed to refer to it as ethics, is that which does not lead to additional suffering and which allows the individual the choice of determining when and how to be freed from the hell that has been forced upon them.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Trouble is- even if you might be suspicious that your own view is overly biased- overly pessimistic or cynical for example, it's not always so easy to change it.

Plus, I think sometimes people use a particular world view strategically. If you're like me and catastrophize, it means for one- you might go in pratically, psychologically and emotionally prepared for the worst outcome. Plus, secondly, it can come as a nice surprise if the event passes smoothly. So, it's like being aware that our world view is in fact false but, still retaining it because it serves us better.

I think one major reason people aren't procreating is because they can't afford children. But sure, it's a very uncertain world babies are being brought into now. I think even an optimist would realise that.

Maybe what differenciates them is the belief they will be able to give their children a good chance to overcome obstacles. I guess that's the benefit of being more optimistic- that, even though there are very obvious dangers in this world, their child will overcome- as presumably, they did. But, even people who are struggling still presumably seem to think their child will fair better. I think a lot of peoole have this rose tinted belief in 'love'. That love will be enough to protect their child.

 

[anomalou]

All in all, what you write resonates deeply with me, although we may have some differing opinions on things. Let me take it apart for you, so you understand what I mean.
To answer the question you started the post with:
I do think, that my subjective truth is the only truth there ever will be in this world. There is no objectivity. But also I have a lot of respect of other peoples subjective experiences. While sometimes I can forget that other truths exist, (e.g. I will forget cis-people exist sometimes in an argument), it is never for a long time, and I generally see myself as a person that is quite aware of the many different experiences people have.

With antinatalism and similar beliefs we are a small minority

Now I am undecided about antinatalism. I do believe and I don't believe. I think it is an absurd horror and a huge form of violence to just put someone into existence without a choice. But also I do want to raise kids. I guess for me the logical choice would be adopting, but the barriers for that are quite hard, and someone with my mental background will never get the chance to do that. So sometimes I think of trying to birth a child, and I also feel egoistical about it. I wan't it, because it would make my life more like I want my life to be. It might even be sadistic, I don't know. I hate living, but I do it for those around me, so why shouldn't I also have someone who lives for me? I guess it's a cycle of violence, and I have yet to decide whether I want to break it or not.

The nihilist antinatalist is not an oppressor, though. They don't make illusions, they don't offer paradises. They just break off, they discontinue the chain. Nothing is more moral than an action that allows others not to be born to be harmed. The contrast is abysmal: pro-life finishes the sentence, the nihilist attempts to end it.

Now people are answering so quickly, before I can finish my thoughts, but this already gets the point I just formulated. It is a chain, and I am yet undecided whether I want to break it.

which allows the individual the choice of determining when and how to be freed from the hell that has been forced upon them.

I do believe that suicide should be allowed for those who suffer like us. But also, to get back to OPs topic: there are other subjective experiences, and someone who enjoys life should get to enjoy life. Who am I to make the judgement for them? To not birth a child, that may be happy? I think that is why I personally am still undecided, because I will not know until they are born and raised, whether they want to be on this world or not.
I feel like in the system that @TheVanishingPoint describes, I am postitioned in a dialectical state between the described optimist and the described antinatalist.

No, give all people enough food, a home, safety, a reason to stay alive. And then give people the choice.

Now why should this not apply to unborn people? To give all people enough food, a home, safety, a reason to stay alive... one must first give life. Now of course one could say that there should be priorities, between those who live and those who potentially may live and I agree, that we must focus on improving all our living conditions first (which is why I prefer adoption for me personally). It's what my political fights are focused on. And I haven't birthed a child for myself yet but I have for someone else, but that's a very different story.

I lectured them, they googled it

Honestly, only repression can come from cops being more informed about Suicide methods. Don't talk to the police about these kind of things, save your lectures for those who will do good with it. I see this in the trans* community far too often, that crucial and historical knowledge, that has enabled us to survive for centuries, get's shared much too publicly. Police don't need to know about painless or easily available suicide options. Imagine if the oppressive state would've never known about something like Nembutal being used for suicide. I don't know anything about the history of suicide repression, as I'm just starting to get into this community, but I imagine that by keeping knowledge within our community, it maybe could've been prevented. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

And in the future they will look with disdain to our epoch where they let something like that happen.

That's quite optimistic. You have an optimistic outlook on the future :D I like it.

That love will be enough to protect their child

Guilty as charged. Of course it's more complex than that, but I feel like if I can suffer through this world, with my communities, and fight for a better life, maybe so can a future child of mine. And maybe I would be able to show them a way out, eventually if they would want to go.

Literally all citizens will have PTSD, won't receive medication for it, no therapy, no welfare net, no prospects for a better life, no proper education. Only misery.

I think while mostly true, this is also a very westernized world view. Medication, therapy and welfare don't change everything for the better. And sometimes a feeling of belonging to a community, can help more, than all those things combined. There will be a lot of misery. Statistically a lot more than in most other parts of the world. But not only.

People lack empathy

Now this is something that is really the core of it. People just need to have more empathy and that's something that for me is worth fighting for, even in death.

Blame them for their unhappniness. Cancel them for trauma dumping.

I hope you didn't have to go through that. But in a way it's what tik-tok woke-ism has come to nowadays. I cancelled the people that treat others like that, and just stick in my own little bubble of anarchist enbies.

And if they create a community, a safe space. Pretend there was no fundamental difference between correlation and causation. Pretend the place was the reason they want to die.

Another quote that resonates with me deeply. I really like your post, thank you for sorting out so many thoughts in it. This retells the experience I have had with safer spaces as well: the mainstream will not get it. People tell me, that me posting on this forum makes them worried, when in reality it is helping me see a light at the end of the tunnel again, a way out of misery. People tell me that me being an anarchist is what makes me unhappy and I should just wage-work. People tell me that transitioning makes me miserable, when in reality it is my only way forward. Thank you again for your post.