Discussion Kinda unpopular take but there is no real proof you go to hell for ctb

[Cyagangy]

I remember hearing that if you end your life then you go to hell since I was younger. It wasn't until what should have been my last days that I started reading and listening up to the word of God. No where in the bible does it say that is wrong or is it condemd. People assume so since life is a gift from God but he is omniscient. He knows when we're supposed to die. If you live it's because of him if you die it's because of him. You could argue, murder is a sin! Suicide could be considered murder but murder is a real lose word in the Bible since the old testament had called for violence of differing degrees. Granted this is the old and not the new as the new condems it outright with apostle John relating hate to murder (John 3:15) which means you technically can't hate yourself since that's a sin but for the most part not everyone that ctb's does hate themself. I wish other Christian will stop trying to use that as an excuse to scare people out of not ending it. Like I understand completely suicide may be morally wrong and I only advocate for it if absolutely necessary but you shouldn't spin the word in a way that requires your own interpretation to fit whatever narrative you are trying to sell. That's probably the reason why most religions get bad rep.

 

[quietwoods]

Don't really think most people believe in hell here. Perhaps a living one, but not an afterlife version

 

[EternalShore]

while I did read your thread and do agree with the topic, I would say that from the Christian worldview, it's more so because Jesus died for your sins, and so if you believe in, repent, and follow Him, God may let you into Heaven, even if you still aren't always able to overcome temptation~

 

[Cyagangy]

Yeah I know much of Sasu isn't religious but this is just me bringing up something that I remembered.

Don't really think most people believe in hell here. Perhaps a living one, but not an afterlife version

while I did read your thread and do agree with the topic, I would say that from the Christian worldview, it's more so because Jesus died for your sins, and so if you believe in, repent, and follow Him, God may let you into Heaven, even if you still aren't always able to overcome temptation~

That's true to an extent but even Jesus himself says that not everyone is going with him. Mathew 7:21. It's just a kind of pray and hope deal.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

there is no real proof of hell or any afterlife or reincarnation , or of ghosts, spirits souls etc. not one piece of evidence or reproducible experiment.

to me hell is this Earth and life on this Earth

 

[Cyagangy]

there is no real proof of hell or any afterlife or reincarnation , or of ghosts, spirits souls etc. not one piece of evidence or reproducible experiment.

to me hell is this Earth and life on this Earth

True the most we have to go by are testimonies from those who had passed for a brief while

 

[Dejected 55]

I mean, there's no proof there even is a heaven or a hell, much less what the qualifications are to get into either if they do exist. No proof of higher powers, Gods, whatever. There's very little proof of anything.

 

[Vivissa]

Exodus 20 13 "You shall not murder.
I think that includes yourself.
In my case I beg for mercy in case I kill myself.

 

[hellocana]

Human suffering always existed, hence the creation of religion. Well that and people who want power lol. Looking back wish I took religion more seriously to not use drug and alcohol as an escape

 

[Vivissa]

Regarding on proofs claims. Most of ppl that claims for proofs cannot even proof almost anything.
They learn how to spell proofs but they dont know how to build any new proof.
how do you proof bacteria exists? How do you proof columb law? How do you proof how much speed of light? Have you ever tryed before all of those.

All knowledge build by humans rely both in trust and desire to reform it. Both are necessary. In order to start learning science hope in science is worth is requiered, there is a first step either delusion or faith.
Sorry for my English.

 

[Bardbarian]

Human suffering always existed, hence the creation of religion. Well that and people who want power lol. Looking back wish I took religion more seriously to not use drug and alcohol as an escape

religion can be just as damaging, just in a less outwardly apparent way. I see a lot of people in recovery communities around me who have absolutely replaced their drug with religion (I'm a recovered addict myself).

 

[Cyagangy]

Exodus 20 13 "You shall not murder.
I think that includes yourself.
In my case I beg for mercy in case I kill myself.

That can be an assumption but it's a slippery slope because murder and killing apparently isn't the same across all variants of Christianity. Which is how we get horrific acts like crusades.

religion can be just as damaging, just in a less outwardly apparent way. I see a lot of people in recovery communities around me who have absolutely replaced their drug with religion (I'm a recovered addict myself).

I wouldn't say it's inherently damaging. Humans however, man kind takes it too far at times. Killing for invisible forces that many can't even prove exists. Many abrahamic faiths have some merit to it but Buddhism and Hinduism is more peaceful and karma based. It really depends upon the people and there actions involving on how they interpret it.

 

[Dejected 55]

Exodus 20 13 "You shall not murder.
I think that includes yourself.
In my case I beg for mercy in case I kill myself.

The problem with using the Bible to prove many things is... it contradicts itself.

Exodus is from the Old Testament... the same Old Testament that includes the story of God asking Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice. So, "thou shalt not kill" except apparently if God commands you to kill. And God might ask you to kill your own son for no reason at all except "because I said so."

Also, speaking of word definitions... Murder tends to happen when you kill someone against their will. If you kill someone who asks you to kill them OR if you kill yourself, clearly you have permission in those cases... so it IS still killing, but it NOT murder anymore.

Regarding on proofs claims. Most of ppl that claims for proofs cannot even proof almost anything.
They learn how to spell proofs but they dont know how to build any new proof.
how do you proof bacteria exists? How do you proof columb law? How do you proof how much speed of light? Have you ever tryed before all of those.

All knowledge build by humans rely both in trust and desire to reform it. Both are necessary. In order to start learning science hope in science is worth is requiered, there is a first step either delusion or faith.
Sorry for my English.

True a lot of things are taken on faith be it science or religion... but unlike religion, it is possible to replicate scientific experiments. So, if you have a scientific theory that you doubt, you can test it and always get the same results. There is no religion that can be tested and give consistent results in the same manner.

One famous analogy was... Tear up all the religious and scientific documents everywhere in the world. Then ask people to recreate them. Via the scientific method you would be able to recreate all of the "proven" scientific theories once again exactly as they were before. Religion, however, would not be so easy to completely reconstruct identically to how it was before. IF religion was the "word of God" then you would think it could always be recreated word for word identically, but it would be different, even if just slightly.

 

[PI3.14]

I don't fear hell cus I don't believe in an afterlife to begin with. However, I believe in the eternity of matter.

 

[Cyagangy]

The problem with using the Bible to prove many things is... it contradicts itself.

Exodus is from the Old Testament... the same Old Testament that includes the story of God asking Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice. So, "thou shalt not kill" except apparently if God commands you to kill. And God might ask you to kill your own son for no reason at all except "because I said so."

Also, speaking of word definitions... Murder tends to happen when you kill someone against their will. If you kill someone who asks you to kill them OR if you kill yourself, clearly you have permission in those cases... so it IS still killing, but it NOT murder anymore.



True a lot of things are taken on faith be it science or religion... but unlike religion, it is possible to replicate scientific experiments. So, if you have a scientific theory that you doubt, you can test it and always get the same results. There is no religion that can be tested and give consistent results in the same manner.

One famous analogy was... Tear up all the religious and scientific documents everywhere in the world. Then ask people to recreate them. Via the scientific method you would be able to recreate all of the "proven" scientific theories once again exactly as they were before. Religion, however, would not be so easy to completely reconstruct identically to how it was before. IF religion was the "word of God" then you would think it could always be recreated word for word identically, but it would be different, even if just slightly.

Thats fair, the Bible has a couple points of contradiction and honestly Abraham was screwed regardless of decision but in pretty sure it was God making a point that he would never ask anyone to kill for him. Religion is faith based so it can never be clear cut and replicated as compared to an experiment which has multiple underlying factors that can lead into one solution.

 

[SoulWantsHome]

To Cyagangy:



First of all:

Whether suicide is morally right or morally wrong, depends on the situation. But in most cases, suicide is actually morally right. But most people don't understand that, because most people haven't experienced true suffering in life. They often think they have - but they usually haven't. (Because if they had, then they wouldn't have had any problems with understanding, accepting and respecting people's right to commit suicide - and assisted suicide would have been institutionalized, and would have been available to anyone of a mature age.)



Second of all:

There is no "Hell" in the afterlife; there is only "Heaven".

You should replace religious books with modern research about the afterlife. All religions are quite simply wrong about several things - although they all get some aspects right, of course. So, always remember that religions contain a lot of heresy, and that their "holy books" are heavily influenced by the authors' agenda.

And also, think about what you'd actually expect from a truly fair, reasonable, intelligent and loving God. Anything that relates to "Hell" and/or blame/judgement/condemnation/punishment, will then go right out of the window - because all souls will be equally valuable, in the eyes of a truly fair, reasonable, intelligent and loving God, no matter what those souls do/don't do.



And remember, if God truly is a fair, reasonable, intelligent and loving being, then God won't send a soul to a place like earth (where human desires can easily lead a soul to do truly evil/cruel things, and where the human experience can easily lead a soul to commit suicide) - and then turn around and blame/judge/condemn/punish the soul for its actions afterwards. God is just as much to blame for whatever a soul does/doesn't do on earth - as God is the one who sent the soul there, while knowing full well what humans are truly capable of, and what kind of place earth truly is. It's like, "Hey, God - what the fuck did you expect?!".

In other words:
A fair, reasonable, intelligent and loving God, wouldn't tempt a hungry mouse with cheese - and then turn around and blame/judge/condemn/punish the mouse for eating the cheese.

(By the way:
God isn't actually a "person"; God is actually more like a "source" in the spirit-world. And angels don't exist. Instead, it's actually our personal spirit-guides and soul-friends that people are having contact with, when they have contact with "God" or "angels".)



Besides, I've heard that the religious concept of "Hell", was actually invented, or at least became popularized, during the medieval times - because life was so bad for most people during those times, that a lot of people committed suicide. And that resulted in religion having to invent some kind of "ultimate threat", to keep people from committing suicide, and thereby maintain its power. (Because how can religion have any power, if most of its followers commit suicide?)

I'm not an historian myself - but it sure makes sense that something like that would be the origin of the modern notion of "Hell".

Regarding on proofs claims. Most of ppl that claims for proofs cannot even proof almost anything.
They learn how to spell proofs but they dont know how to build any new proof.
how do you proof bacteria exists? How do you proof columb law? How do you proof how much speed of light? Have you ever tryed before all of those.

All knowledge build by humans rely both in trust and desire to reform it. Both are necessary. In order to start learning science hope in science is worth is requiered, there is a first step either delusion or faith.
Sorry for my English.

It's actually very easy to prove things (at least to intelligent and rational people), when you actually bring valid evidences to the table, and combine them with undeniable logic. However, doing this requires high intelligence and rationality - which a lot of people unfortunately lack (which is the main reason why the world is so fucked up, and why it will always remain fucked up).

And the belief in good/proper science (as opposed to bad/poor science), isn't based on faith or delusion; it's based on actual, consistent, practical results.

there is no real proof of hell or any afterlife or reincarnation , or of ghosts, spirits souls etc. not one piece of evidence or reproducible experiment.

I can assure you that there is. You (like most people, who don't explore this stuff) just don't know about the evidences (even scientific evidences) that actually exist for these things.

Remember, you only know what you know; you don't know what you don't know.



You're going to have such a big, pleasant surprise when you die... I can promise you that :) Mark. My. Words.

You're in a "dream" right now (along with all other creatures on this earth) - but one day, you will wake up to the real world. I know - because I've been there. It's even realer than this world, and you become the full version of yourself (which is currently limited, in your human form).

You simply have no idea what awaits you... :)

 

[kopebaldy]

Hell is already here, we'll be going to extra hell.

See you all at the boiling oil pits lol.

 

[SoulWantsHome]

True the most we have to go by are testimonies from those who had passed for a brief while

I mean, there's no proof there even is a heaven or a hell, much less what the qualifications are to get into either if they do exist. No proof of higher powers, Gods, whatever. There's very little proof of anything.

To both of you:
Read my reply to pthnrdnojvsc, above.

 

[Manfrotto99]

According to the New testament we all "fall short of sin". So even if it is a sin, it is forgiven by Jesus through the cross. All sins past, present and future are forgiven by Christ and neither death nor life, no powers or principalities, nothing we do or don't do, can seperate us from the love that is in Him. Nothing I do of myself, is greater than His redemptive love. He paid the ultimate price and has redemmed us from all sin. My actions can never come anywhere near His amazing love and grace. I have peace and am glad that I can stand firm in my faith and belief in Christ when I CTB.

 

[cciro]

Whether suicide is morally right or morally wrong, depends on the situation. But in most cases, suicide is actually morally right.

I'm interested in what you mean by this, do you mind elaborating further? What kind of moral system are you talking about here? I do like the philosophy of morality but I've not gotten very far at all in learning about all the different types. Very much a beginner.

 

[SoulWantsHome]

I'm interested in what you mean by this, do you mind elaborating further? What kind of moral system are you talking about here? I do like the philosophy of morality but I've not gotten very far at all in learning about all the different types. Very much a beginner.

I wasn't talking about any particular kind of moral system... (Besides, by using proper logic, and having proper knowledge about a subject; the objectively correct morality regarding that subject, will usually naturally reveal itself. And there's no need to learn about different moral systems, if a person has good logical capabilities, and proper knowledge about the subject in question. However, learning about different moral systems, can still be interesting, of course.)

I was just referring to the fact that it's obviously morally right for a person to commit suicide (especially if the person is physically or psychologically suffering) - simply because it's his/her own life (and it's his/her own suffering), and that he/she therefore should be the one who decides what to do with his/her own life.

However, there are some situations where suicide still can be morally questionable. (For example if the person has small children that depend on him/her.) But in most cases, "suicide-morality" should obviously favour the person who commits suicide (because it's actually his/her own life, and his/her own suffering; no one else's), over any other people that may be affected by his/her suicide.

 

[unluckysadness]

Hell ? We are already in hell. So going to hell after committing suicide in a non sense to me. In that case, suffering never ends and most religions pretend God is love. I worry more about reincarnation (which I don't want)

 

[SoulWantsHome]

I worry more about reincarnation (which I don't want)

Don't worry; you won't have to reincarnate if you don't want to. No one is forced to do anything in the spirit-world :) Free will is one of the most valued things there - along with peace and love.

You can consider souls as super-altruistic versions of humans - and the spirit-world as a super-altruistic version of a human society.

 

[Cyagangy]

To Cyagangy:



First of all:

Whether suicide is morally right or morally wrong, depends on the situation. But in most cases, suicide is actually morally right. But most people don't understand that, because most people haven't experienced true suffering in life. They often think they have - but they usually haven't. (Because if they had, then they wouldn't have had any problems with understanding, accepting and respecting people's right to commit suicide - and assisted suicide would have been institutionalized, and would have been available to anyone of a mature age.)



Second of all:

There is no "Hell" in the afterlife; there is only "Heaven".

You should replace religious books with modern research about the afterlife. All religions are quite simply wrong about several things - although they all get some aspects right, of course. So, always remember that religions contain a lot of heresy, and that their "holy books" are heavily influenced by the authors' agenda.

And also, think about what you'd actually expect from a truly fair, reasonable, intelligent and loving God. Anything that relates to "Hell" and/or blame/judgement/condemnation/punishment, will then go right out of the window - because all souls will be equally valuable, in the eyes of a truly fair, reasonable, intelligent and loving God, no matter what those souls do/don't do.



And remember, if God truly is a fair, reasonable, intelligent and loving being, then God won't send a soul to a place like earth (where human desires can easily lead a soul to do truly evil/cruel things, and where the human experience can easily lead a soul to commit suicide) - and then turn around and blame/judge/condemn/punish the soul for its actions afterwards. God is just as much to blame for whatever a soul does/doesn't do on earth - as God is the one who sent the soul there, while knowing full well what humans are truly capable of, and what kind of place earth truly is. It's like, "Hey, God - what the fuck did you expect?!".

In other words:
A fair, reasonable, intelligent and loving God, wouldn't tempt a hungry mouse with cheese - and then turn around and blame/judge/condemn/punish the mouse for eating the cheese.

(By the way:
God isn't actually a "person"; God is actually more like a "source" in the spirit-world. And angels don't exist. Instead, it's actually our personal spirit-guides and soul-friends that people are having contact with, when they have contact with "God" or "angels".)



Besides, I've heard that the religious concept of "Hell", was actually invented, or at least became popularized, during the medieval times - because life was so bad for most people during those times, that a lot of people committed suicide. And that resulted in religion having to invent some kind of "ultimate threat", to keep people from committing suicide, and thereby maintain its power. (Because how can religion have any power, if most of its followers commit suicide?)

I'm not an historian myself - but it sure makes sense that something like that would be the origin of the modern notion of "Hell".




It's actually very easy to prove things, when you actually bring valid evidences to the table, and combine them with undeniable logic. However, this requires high intelligence and rationality - which a lot of people unfortunately lack (which is the main reason why the world is so fucked up, and why it will always remain fucked up).

And the belief in good/proper science (as opposed to bad/poor science), isn't based on faith or delusion; it's based on actual, consistent, practical results.




I can assure you that there is. You (like most people, who don't explore this stuff) just don't know about the evidences (even scientific evidences) that actually exist for these things.

Remember, you only know what you know; you don't know what you don't know.



You're going to have such a big, pleasant surprise when you die... I can promise you that :) Mark. My. Words.

You're in a "dream" right now (along with all other creatures on this earth) - but one day, you will wake up to the real world. I know - because I've been there. It's even realer than this world, and you become the full version of yourself (which is currently limited, in your human form).

You simply have no idea what awaits you... :)

I can see a couple points in this but he'll was never made for man. God isn't cruel, he may do things that seem cruel in a glance but humans will always have blame. He has given so many chances to mankind and let's keep chugging along on our path to damnation. I use he as a pronoun but literally none can fit it. It has watched people do horrific things to each other. But it promised to not step in anymore. Whatever we do is our own faults at the end of the day. The old testament had strict rules pre God's love incarnate (Jesus). After he existed and died it got lax with us and essentially said "I'll see you when I see you". Sin is like this piece of cheese and it knows we'll fall into sin but the point it's to better ourselves into not doing it even if it's hard. There are times where I add logic to what it does but either it's to illogical or I just accept it's beyond logic. I see the theory as hell being created to keep the suicide rate low as being completely possible. Middle ages sucked, I don't understand why people do stuff like that. If life is a party and I'm not having fun at this party then why force me to stay?

Don't worry; you won't have to reincarnate if you don't want to. No one is forced to do anything in the spirit-world :) Free will is one of the most valued things there - along with peace and love.

You can consider souls as super-altruistic versions of humans - and the spirit-world as a super-altruistic version of a human society.

How are you so certain about this? I mean I have personal testimonial from my own religious experience unless you have also died or almost died.

 

[cciro]

But in most cases, "suicide-morality" should obviously favour the person who commits suicide (because it's actually his/her own life, and his/her own suffering; no one else's), over any other people that may be affected by his/her suicide.

I do agree.

(Besides, by using proper logic, and having proper knowledge about a subject; the objectively correct morality regarding that subject, will naturally reveal itself. There's no need to learn about different moral systems, if a person has good logical capabilities, and proper knowledge about the subject in question. However, learning about different moral systems, can still be interesting, of course.)

I am wondering, how can you say it is always possible to get to the objective moral truth of a situation, when philosophers for who knows how long have been trying to do that and afaik theres no consensus on it still? I guess you do you say proper knowledge of the subject is needed, maybe for some topics that's impossible for humans to achieve? Or do you mean it is possible for humans to find the correct morality in any situation with good logic and info? Or you could mean something else altogether, I'm just guessing.

 

[r.m.216]

Go to hell if you do, you're in hell if you don't, that's the rub

 

[SoulWantsHome]

I can see a couple points in this but he'll was never made for man. God isn't cruel, he may do things that seem cruel in a glance but humans will always have blame. He has given so many chances to mankind and let's keep chugging along on our path to damnation. I use he as a pronoun but literally none can fit it. It has watched people do horrific things to each other. But it promised to not step in anymore. Whatever we do is our own faults at the end of the day. The old testament had strict rules pre God's love incarnate (Jesus). After he existed and died it got lax with us and essentially said "I'll see you when I see you". Sin is like this piece of cheese and it knows we'll fall into sin but the point it's to better ourselves into not doing it even if it's hard. There are times where I add logic to what it does but either it's to illogical or I just accept it's beyond logic. I see the theory as hell being created to keep the suicide rate low as being completely possible. Middle ages sucked, I don't understand why people do stuff like that. If life is a party and I'm not having fun at this party then why force me to stay?

As I've already stated, you simply need to explore modern afterlife-research, if you want to know how life, incarnations and the spirit-world, actually works. (It will set you free, by the way - as you will no longer have to worry about following any religious "rules". Instead, you can just follow your own morality/what feels right for you.)

But yes - it's true that the main point with us souls incarnating as humans, is for us to experience problems (as problems originally don't exist in the spirit-world), and to try to become better at dealing with them.

And you don't have to believe anything I say, of course. You'll discover these things for yourself anyway, the day you die.



And yes, humans are to blame for their own actions - but God would also have been to blame for their actions (if God was an actual person, instead of a "thing"), as God would have been the one who sent souls to earth (which God would know is a fucked up place), as I've previously explained.

(However, humans aren't blamed in a harsh way, nor judged/condemned/punished, in the afterlife. In the afterlife, it's more about the acknowledgement of guilt/blame, if someone has done something morally wrong - but it's not about any harsh blaming and judgment/condemnation/punishment.)

How are you so certain about this? I mean I have personal testimonial from my own religious experience unless you have also died or almost died.

I know these things, due to the combination of the 3 following things:

1) The undeniable evidences of modern afterlife-research.
2) The undeniable principle of what a fair, reasonable, intelligent and loving God and spirit-world, would actually entail.
3) My personal experience with the incredible peace and love that the afterlife actually entails. Anything else than true peace, love and freedom, is simply incompatible with that. And anyone who's truly experienced this, will know what I'm talking about.​

In other words:
The reason why I'm right about these things, and why a lot of other people are wrong about these things, is that all of these 3 factors that I outlined above, align perfectly with each other.

Remember, if something is truly true, it will show up the same way, in various places. (In other words, "something that is true, is consistently observed".) And such consistency, combined with logic, reveals what's actually true about things. (That's why we know that the earth is round, that gravity exists, and that evolution is true.)

So, anyone who has had spiritual experiences that contradict these things (for example people who see "demons" or similar things, during their spiritual experiences), have simply had a twisted, spiritual experience, where their own mind has influenced their spiritual experience (which is why Christians often see "Jesus", while Muslims often see "Muhammad", and religious people in general often see "demons"/"experience going to "Hell", and children often see cartoon-characters; during their spiritual experiences); or their spirit-guides have simply played a trick on them (which some spirit-guides do, either as a joke, or because it's meant to be a part of the person's challenge in life, as it can make the person fear "Hell" or similar things).

I am wondering, how can you say it is always possible to get to the objective moral truth of a situation, when philosophers for who knows how long have been trying to do that and afaik theres no consensus on it still? I guess you do you say proper knowledge of the subject is needed, maybe for some topics that's impossible for humans to achieve? Or do you mean it is possible for humans to find the correct morality in any situation with good logic and info? Or you could mean something else altogether, I'm just guessing.

First of all:
I only meant that it's usually possible to know the objectively correct morality regarding things, if a person has good, logical capabilities, and proper knowledge about the subject in question. But I originally didn't write the word, "usually", in the post (although I've edited it in now), so I'm sorry about this confusion.

Of course, sometimes there are multiple things that seem to be equally moral, and it can thereby sometimes be difficult to decide what the objectively correct morality is - even if a person has good, logical capabilities and proper knowledge about the subject in question.

Second of all:
Not all philosophers are highly intelligent and rational.

Third of all:
Some things are out of reach of human knowledge - but most things are, at least to a large degree, within reach of human knowledge.

 

[developic]

like really we care .............. if you believe in God it's hard to suicide I think........
we didn't give a fuck about we go to hell or a dark endless realm