Palestine & Israel

[Left]

I have a great interest in these topics but I just don't have the mental fortitude at the moment to get flamed. I'll just enjoy from the sidelines.

 

[letmejoindeath]

can you calm down?

what you're doing by going back and forth is becoming argumentative and single handedly derailing this thread. it prevents the conversation from being productive and stops it from pushing forward.

quit being provocative. @The Eeyorish One mentioned where they stand on the matter and so did you. if you disagree, simply disengage, especially if you "don't care" as said, instead of trying to argue and start flame-wars.

well I asked why it's our responsibility to fund others countries wars? What is the point of governments if the US just has to foot the bill for every war in the world? Don't governments budget for this?

What would Gaza or Israel ever done for you? What did Israel or Gaza do for us for 9/11?

Im the one having a discussion while your opinions are either Gaza good or Gaza Bad, Israel good or Israel bad.

Im not trying to start a flame war, I asked many valid questions that you are incapable of or refuse to answer.

Im the only one trying to have a discussion and asking any questions at all.

I have a great interest in these topics but I just don't have the mental fortitude at the moment to get flamed. I'll just enjoy from the sidelines.

Asking valid questions is now "flaming" if you lack the ability to answer them.

Im getting frustrated because no one in here can even answer basic questions about your opinions. You just repeat the opinion and pat yourself on the back for being the good guy lol

 

[tiger b]

It's not America's responsibility to 'foot the bill for every war in the world'...

It doesn't. It only ever gets involved out of self-interest. Like other nations, really. Don't tell me Vietnam was out of some compassion and not the 'domino effect' concept. And let's not talk about Allende etc.

And because it is so multi-cultural anyway, it has ties to many nations. It's going to be inevitable - unless an isolationist policy is pursued, which is not in US economic interests.

The point you make about 9/11 is rather moot. Other nations have support the US in certain situations. And why was America attacked in the first place?

America has sided with Israel for a long time. Your country is involved, like it or not. You don't have to care. But calling others sheep because they don't see it the same way is just you burying your head in the sand.

 

[Left]

Asking valid questions is now "flaming" if you lack the ability to answer them.

I wasn't referring to you but with political discourse in general because clearly people get very emotionally charged over these topics. It's okay buddy, just

 

[letmejoindeath]

I wasn't referring to you but with political discourse in general because clearly people get very emotionally charged over these topics. It's okay buddy, just

Ok, you claim to want political discourse yet can't answer a single question.

Then post memes to show us how virtuous you are that you wont answer questions.

 

[Left]

Ok, you claim to want political discourse yet can't answer a single question.

Then post memes to show us how virtuous you are that you wont answer questions.

Re-read what I said, I never asked for political discourse or insulted anyone or anything. You're either confused or you're just trying to attack anyone you see because you're having a bad day. I was never asked a question about anything.

 

[letmejoindeath]

Re-read what I said, I never asked for political discourse or insulted anyone or anything. You're either confused or you're just trying to attack anyone you see because you're having a bad day. I was never asked a question about anything.

My very first post had like ten questions in it that were completely ignored to repeat a narrative I've already heard.

It's not America's responsibility to 'foot the bill for every war in the world'...

It doesn't. It only ever gets involved out of self-interest. Like other nations, really. Don't tell me Vietnam was out of some compassion and not the 'domino effect' concept. And let's not talk about Allende etc.

And because it is so multi-cultural anyway, it has ties to many nations. It's going to be inevitable - unless an isolationist policy is pursued, which is not in US economic interests.

The point you make about 9/11 is rather moot. Other nations have support the US in certain situations. And why was America attacked in the first place?

America has sided with Israel for a long time. Your country is involved, like it or not. You don't have to care. But calling others sheep because they don't see it the same way is just you burying your head in the sand.

I have heard this opinion 1 million times.

Can you explain how Israel is within our national interest or how it's fall would be detrimental to the US?

Im not saying they shouldn't attack Gaza but we already provide them with billions of dollars a year. They already have their own military.

Why should my inflation and groceries go up for countries who don't manage their money responsibly?
Why should we spend money we don't have for them?

We are in a deficit. When you owe money on your loans do you start lending out the money you don't have out of virtue?

You want to talk economic interest while simultaneously making our economy worse?

See so many people are bitching about inflation while simultaneously bootlicking the people causing it.

 

[pole]

well I asked why it's our responsibility to fund others countries wars? What is the point of governments if the US just has to foot the bill for every war in the world?

What would Gaza or Israel ever done for you? What did Israel or Gaza do for us for 9/11?

Im the one having a discussion while your opinions are either Gaza good or Gaza Bad, Israel good or Israel bad.

Im not trying to start a flame war, I asked many valid questions that you are incapable of or refuse to answer.

Im the only one trying to have a discussion.

If any of your care so much why aren't you doing anything yourself besides virtue signaling on the internet to each other?

you aren't just asking questions though. you're trying to get your points across that comes off aggressive, even if it also shuts or puts the other person down.

If y'all care so much why aren't you taking out loans and sending your own fucking money? Maybe you should add to your own deficit if you are so virtuous? You wont though because your a pussy who would rather make everyone pay for it.

Do people not understand we are in a deficit? How dumb are Americans? How dumb are you?

Sorry you lack the ability to think for yourself.

Why don't you send your own money to Gaza if you care so fucking much? Or do you just go around screaming this shit to show everyone how much virtue you have?

each of these parts in your responses could have been left out. you don't need to make the other person feel like they're wrong or don't know what they're talking about for you to get your point across.

the way you're choosing to have a discussion will lead to flame-wars and the thread being derailed. and that begs the question, well why do you feel that people are refusing to answer?

maybe it's because of how your responses are coming off. it isn't productive and what the other person is going to do is react to the tone of your responses versus tackling the question.

anyways, let's proceed.

i get your sentiments. why should we care? why is our money funding these wars?

currently, i think a lot of Americans feel that way. hence, the shift in attitude when discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict now versus in years past. people don't want to be dragged into another war and honestly, they aren't as stupid to be propagandized anymore and…. they're much more concerned with what's going on at home in the states (healthcare, quality of living, job market).

like @tiger b mentions above, whether you like it or not, your country is dragged into the conflict for their own self-interest. they could care less about how you feel on the matter. they have their own goals and objectives, especially when it comes to affairs in the Middle East regions and it's consequences politically on a macro-level.

the conversations you see today about the conflict isn't as black and white as you're making it out to be. it isn't just "Israeli good" or "Gaza bad". the conflict has always been much more complex than that and that's why we see the stark divide today on the matter.

this isn't the 2000s anymore. you can't just manufacture consent that easily and have the public support for another war (Iraq). there's a shift in opinion and people are fed up. they don't want to reap the consequences of living through another war.

so what do we do?

now, more and more people are resisting the Zionist regime and what it's been feeding us. people understand that this is a cycle of violence. there will always be conflict, resistance, war, and we innocent civilians will have to pay the price for it.

what these conversations you're seeing today revolve around is people being more focused on a solution and addressing the underlying root causes of the conflict, so that we can finally put an end to this cycle and move forward.

we want peace and an end in sight to a conflict. it's been 75 years too long and we aren't going to be dragged into another war. we also recognize that violence will always underpin an apartheid state, and as long as the occupation lives on, there will always be resistance and a chance of war, one that involves innocent people paying the price for it.

stop looking at it so black and white. if anything, you relate more to how the majority of people feel today about the conflict. however, you need to take a step back and understand the shift in opinion and why people feel that way.

 

[letmejoindeath]

you aren't just asking questions though. you're trying to get your points across that comes off aggressive, even if it also shuts or puts the other person down.







each of these parts in your responses could have been left out. you don't need to make the other person feel like they're wrong or don't know what they're talking about for you to get your point across.

the way you're choosing to have a discussion will lead to flame-wars and the thread being derailed. and that begs the question, well why do you feel that people are refusing to answer?

maybe it's because of how your responses are coming off. it isn't productive and what the other person is going to do is react to the tone of your responses versus tackling the question.

anyways, let's proceed.

i get your sentiments. why should we care? why is our money funding these wars?

currently, i think a lot of Americans feel that way. hence, the shift in attitude when discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict now versus in years past. people don't want to be dragged into another war and honestly, they aren't as stupid to be propagandized anymore and…. they're much more concerned with what's going on at home in the states (healthcare, quality of living, job market).

like @tiger b mentions above, whether you like it or not, your country is dragged into the conflict for their own self-interest. they could care less about how you feel on the matter. they have their own goals and objectives, especially when it comes to affairs in the Middle East regions and it's consequences politically on a macro-level.

the conversations you see today about the conflict isn't as black and white as you're making it out to be. it isn't just "Israeli good" or "Gaza bad". the conflict has always been much more complex than that and that's why we see the stark divide today on the matter.

this isn't the 2000s anymore. you can't just manufacture consent that easily and have the public support for another war (Iraq). there's a shift in opinion and people are fed up. they don't want to reap the consequences of living through another war.

so what do we do?

now, more and more people are resisting the Zionist regime and what it's been feeding us. people understand that this is a cycle of violence. there will always be conflict, resistance, war, and we innocent civilians will have to pay the price for it.

what these conversations you're seeing today revolve around is people being more focused on a solution and addressing the underlying root causes of the conflict, so that we can finally put an end to this cycle and move forward.

we want peace and an end in sight to a conflict. it's been 75 years too long and we aren't going to be dragged into another war. we also recognize that violence will always underpin an apartheid state, and as long as the occupation lives on, there will always be resistance and a chance of war, one that involves innocent people paying the price for it.

stop looking at it so black and white. if anything, you relate more to how the majority of people feel today about the conflict. however, you need to take a step back and understand the shift in opinion and why people feel that way.

The self-interest narrative has been repeated many times.

How would Israel's or Gazas fall have any bearing on us economically or out of our self-interest?

Shouldn't we worry about our own budget and deficit before we worry about other countries?

 

[tiger b]

'I have heard this opinion 1 million times.'

Could you be actually any more dismissive? I'll ignore your rudeness this time, maybe you are autistic or whatever, but if you've heard 'it' a million times, perhaps you should either lusten or go and do some research.

I could explain how having a stable region - you know, the region with most of the oil - would be in the biggest consumer of oil's national interest aka the good old US, but you seem intelligent, so I'm shocked you cannot grasp this.

Why should my inflation and groceries be affected by the American sub-prime market crash in 2008?? Just because Americans can't manage their economics properly??

See how stupid that is. Things are far more intertwined than you imagine - especially with economics. And America are the chief economic exploiters of them all, so don't cry when the chickens come home to roost.

 

[letmejoindeath]

'I have heard this opinion 1 million times.'

Could you be actually any more dismissive? I'll ignore your rudeness this time, maybe you are autistic or whatever, but if you've heard 'it' a million times, perhaps you should either lusten or go and do some research.

I could explain how having a stable region - you know, the region with most of the oil - would be in the biggest consumer of oil's national interest aka the good old US, but you seem intelligent, so I'm shocked you cannot grasp this.

Why should my inflation and groceries be affected by the American sub-prime market crash in 2008?? Just because Americans can't manage their economics properly??

See how stupid that is. Things are far more intertwined than you imagine - especially with economics. And America are the chief economic exploiters of them all, so don't cry when the chickens come home to roost.

Well you keep stating an opinion with providing no substance.

Americans can't handle their finances properly and the banks should have failed for making bad decisions. I don't think the government should have bailed them out because that sets a precedent and it will just happen again and only the middle class and low class will suffer.

I also think that funding these wars is going to fuck our country worse than the 2008 crisis but let's spend money we don't have for the virtue warriors!

I didn't realize Israel was a large oil producing country or that we needed them to get oil from other countries?

Didn't realize all trade of oil went through Israel either?

Israel isn't an oil producing country and there isn't any transport of it through or around Israel.

Also im not saying I want Israel to fall but they have people in that country. It's those peoples responsibility by voting on elected officials who budget appropriately. If they make bad decisions then they deserve to be punished

 

[LaVieEnRose]

I feel sorry for the uninvolved civilians on both sides, and it would be nice if a peaceful resolution could happen. But I don't think they're going to quit fighting, and I don't think I'd really care if both nations were mutually destroyed.

Might as annihilate all of humanity if we feel that way.

Not that that would be that unpopular an idea here.

Israel isn't going anywhere anyways.

 

[pole]

Can you explain how Israel is within our national interest or how it's fall would be detrimental to the US?

Im not saying they shouldn't attack Gaza but we already provide them with billions of dollars a year. They already have their own military.

look, we can provide them with the world, and it won't be enough. why? because that doesn't address the root causes of the conflict.

providing them with humanitarian aid and the bare minimum for them to survive in an open-air prison despite being oppressed for the last 75 years is a bandaid solution. that's what we've been doing. it's done NOTHING.

what people have been striving for is a solution to the conflict, so we can finally move forward and not be dragged into the possibilities of war every god damn decade. what we're seeing today is honestly the closest we've been in a while with tackling the problem, and it sucks that it took a fucking massacre and the lives of thousands of innocent people for the conflict to get the attention it deserves.

finally, how the conflict and Israel's collapse is detrimental to the U.S? honestly, that's a great question, one that is complex and loaded. i don't even have the complete answers to that myself.

i think for years, Israel has been America's prized possession. it helps them keep stability and have their name stamped into the Middle Eastern region. the cooperation goes all the way back to the Cold War i believe and it's a counter to Arab nationalism, radical forces, and political Islam in the Middle East (preventing the proliferation of WMDs in region).

hence, why it's been incredibly important for them to push the Israeli-Arab normalization and peace talks, which have been halted recently. others can delve deeper into it, but that's kind of the jist of it for people like myself who could care less.

however, i think we've hit a different point this time. i hope others can build on these points because i'm not as well-versed, but from what I gather, the anti-western bloc is very real. Russia, China, Iran, they don't just have their feet dangling in the water anymore. what could possibly happen in the region could have a significant impact on geopolitics and world affairs, which again, i hope is a point others more knowledgeable can continue to build and push forward because it's interesting and helps with the discussion.

again, the concerns that you are raising echo how a lot of Americans are feeling at this very moment. it's why there's a complete shift in attitudes on the matter and people aren't just blindly consenting to Israel's attempt at legitimizing a war and forcible displacement. we have enough of our own shit to deal with in our countries. what we don't want is for our consent to be manufactured and to aimlessly support another war that will further cripple our own issues.

 

[letmejoindeath]

Might as annihilate all of humanity if we feel that way.

Not that that would be that unpopular an idea here.

Israel isn't going anywhere anyways.

By just letting people defend themselves and their own way of life we should annihilate all of humanity?

 

[tiger b]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'keep stating'.

What substance do you require?

The wider issue is very rational fears that the oil-producing countries - which support Palestine - will be sucked into the conflict. If you know your history, particularly the 1970s, you will know that this will have economic consequences, for the US.

You don't have to believe me, just go and study history. It should answer the questions you ask, as your tone is disgustingly rude and respectfully, if you have genuine interest you'll get the answers you seek, as perhaps it's beyond us mortals. I wish you well.
Oh and...

'We are in a deficit. When you owe money on your loans do you start lending out the money you don't have out of virtue?'

You have your issue - and your answer - right there. Well done you. Think it through.

 

[Againstthewind]

I'm just gonna jump in here, to remind people to have this argument and debate MATURELY.

This is an emotional issue, that can spin out of control.

 

[letmejoindeath]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'keep stating'.

What substance do you require?

The wider issue is very rational fears that the oil-producing countries - which support Palestine - will be sucked into the conflict. If you know your history, particularly the 1970s, you will know that this will have economic consequences, for the US.

You don't have to believe me, just go and study history. It should answer the questions you ask, as your tone is disgustingly rude and respectfully, if you have genuine interest you'll get the answers you seek, as perhaps it's beyond us mortals. I wish you well.

If we should be so worried about oil then why aren't we producing more ourselves? So oil in another country halfway around the earth is in our self-interest but oil here in the states isn't? Israel isn't an oil producing country and has no infrastructure. How does saying it would affect us economically even make sense.

Israel would still be in war with or without our help. If other countries joined in it would affect us economically still? Ok well let's send more of our money and still be hurt the exact same economically whether we contribute or not. How does spending more money make sense to anyone?

If economics was the issue they would have built the oil pipelines here in the states.

If those other countries get sucked into the conflict, now they will be justified into attacking us since we got involved and funded the whole thing.

we should just mind our own business and focus on fixing things in our own country before we start sending billions to others that already have funding.

If we were in a surplus I wouldn't mind helping our Allies.

Also, we are sending money to a country that has a budget surplus while we have a deficit. How does it make sense not to make them spend their own money first.

Israelis must be smarter than Americans since they are living off our dime while not spending their own.

I don't understand why so many Americans want to expedite Americas descent out of virtue for other countries who would never spend a dime on us.

 

[Kattt]

A lot of members are too young to appreciate the extensive history behind the hostilities. Or that Israel has been sidestepping accusations of war crimes for decades. Of course, nothing ever comes of it, because they hide behind the mighty American war machine. It's also worth noting the countless human rights atrocities committed by Mossad.
I'm not saying Hammas is vindicated, but take a good look at the decimation of Palestine and her people. Then consider how you would respond if your homeland and loved ones were subjected to 80 years of such treatment.
Of course, nobody can say for sure, but one possible explanation for America's unwavering support of Israel could be guilt/shame, due to the boat loads of Jewish refugees they turned away from their shores following WWII.
Frankly, it's high time the US invested in their own back yard and addressed the needs of US citizens. The illegal invasion of Iraq has permitted the Islamic state to take root and establish a foothold that's gaining strength and loyalty worldwide. Overthrowing Saddam Hussein had far reaching implications, clearing the way for the return to a caliphate and a medieval power structure.
Western arms delivered to the Afghani Mujahedeen 40 years ago were turned on US troops 20 years later. $2.3 trillion and an (conservatively) estimated 243,000 lives later, the people of Afghanistan are more oppressed than ever. It's believed that the US has killed more than 20 million people in 37 countries since the end of WWII.
Source: more than 20 million dead
Whatever your opinion of the situation between Israel and Palestine, it's hard to imagine that the involvement of Western forces will be any more beneficial than it was elsewhere in the middle east.
There are no winners in war.

 

[pole]

A lot of members are too young to appreciate the extensive history behind the hostilities. Or that Israel has been sidestepping accusations of war crimes for decades. Of course, nothing ever comes of it, because they hide behind the mighty American war machine. It's also worth noting the countless human rights atrocities committed by Mossad.
I'm not saying Hammas is vindicated, but take a good look at the decimation of Palestine and her people. Then consider how you would respond if your homeland and loved ones were subjected to 80 years of such treatment.
Of course, nobody can say for sure, but one possible explanation for America's unwavering support of Israel could be guilt/shame, due to the boat loads of Jewish refugees they turned away from their shores following WWII.
Frankly, it's high time the US invested in their own back yard and addressed the needs of US citizens. The illegal invasion of Iraq has permitted the Islamic state to take root and establish a foothold that's gaining strength and loyalty worldwide. Overthrowing Saddam Hussein had far reaching implications, clearing the way for the return to a caliphate and a medieval power structure.
Western arms delivered to the Afghani Mujahedeen 40 years ago were turned on US troops 20 years later. $2.3 trillion and an (conservatively) estimated 243,000 lives later, the people of Afghanistan are more oppressed than ever. It's believed that the US has killed more than 20 million people in 37 countries since the end of WWII.
Source: more than 20 million dead
Whatever your opinion of the situation between Israel and Palestine, it's hard to imagine that the involvement of Western forces will be any more beneficial than it was elsewhere in the middle east.
There are no winners in war.

i think this sentiment highlights the new stage that we're at regarding the conflict.

people are fed up. they've seen the consequences of the war-on-terror agenda post 9/11 and the damage that has come from the involvement of western forces in the middle eastern region. the last thing we want is to be dragged into another war while we overlook the crippling issues in our own countries.

people understand that the cycle of violence will continue to persist like it has for the last 75 years until the root causes of the conflict are addressed. it finally feels like attention is back on wanting to find solutions rather than WAR WAR WAR WAR. the desire for an end to the bloodshed is stronger than ever amongst the international community and i'm all for it.

it's unfortunate that it took the massacre of innocent Israeli civilians for global outrage and discussions about the conflict being revitalized again in the public sphere. still, it feels different this time and i hope it continues to push us forward towards a solution.

 

[tiger b]

One thing in particular puzzles me.

Hamas surely must have known, through history, that such an attack on Israel would result in massive (and I generally see as over-the-top) retaliation.

Yet they did it.

Was this an attempt to widen the conflict, to involve other states who were starting to engage Israel more? Propaganda purposes?

I am sure they would have put quite a bit of thought to any consequences.

I abhor the initial attack made towards Israel recently which has started this latest round of violence, but the response seems sadly predictable and unjustified on behalf of a people who know what systemic genocide feels like. I hope for peace.

 

[Cage]

Both sides are bad and aren't worthy of any outside support. Let them fight it out. It's not our problem anyway.

 

[pole]

One thing in particular puzzles me.

Hamas surely must have known, through history, that such an attack on Israel would result in massive (and I generally see as over-the-top) retaliation.

Yet they did it.

Was this an attempt to widen the conflict, to involve other states who were starting to engage Israel more? Propaganda purposes?

I am sure they would have put quite a bit of thought to any consequences.

I abhor the initial attack made towards Israel recently which has started this latest round of violence, but the response seems sadly predictable and unjustified on behalf of a people who know what systemic genocide feels like. I hope for peace.

i mentioned this in another thread, but for the Palestinian coalition forces, the purpose was to revolt.

we saw violent Palestinian revolts in 1948, 1967, the intifada's in 1987 and throughout the 90's, the rise of other resistance movements in the 2000s, etc. each revolt was in response to continued escalation and failed peace talks.

the recent response is no different and it's for several reasons, like widening the conflict, and also, halting the Israel-Arab normalization talks that felt like a betrayal and backstab to many in the middle eastern region.

in addition, Israeli journalists and even their own internal security service for years had been warning that when you push people to the brink, they're willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom. sentiments that were echoed by a great Israeli journalist that I'll leave below.



and like you've mentioned, the brutal response that follows is just as predictable as the violent attacks that will come from this in 10-20 years. we've seen it time and time again. it is a cycle of violence that will not stop until the root causes of the conflict are addressed. the answer is not more war and fighting.

the discussion is once again revitalized, albeit different this time and there's a shift in attitude about the conflict in the public sphere for various reasons. like you, i also do wish for peace and although i hate being optimistic, the complete shift in opinion about the conflict gives me a glimmer of hope.

 

[Lys_C15H25N3O_d3]

A lot of members are too young to appreciate the extensive history behind the hostilities. Or that Israel has been sidestepping accusations of war crimes for decades. Of course, nothing ever comes of it, because they hide behind the mighty American war machine. It's also worth noting the countless human rights atrocities committed by Mossad.
I'm not saying Hammas is vindicated, but take a good look at the decimation of Palestine and her people. Then consider how you would respond if your homeland and loved ones were subjected to 80 years of such treatment.
Of course, nobody can say for sure, but one possible explanation for America's unwavering support of Israel could be guilt/shame, due to the boat loads of Jewish refugees they turned away from their shores following WWII.
Frankly, it's high time the US invested in their own back yard and addressed the needs of US citizens. The illegal invasion of Iraq has permitted the Islamic state to take root and establish a foothold that's gaining strength and loyalty worldwide. Overthrowing Saddam Hussein had far reaching implications, clearing the way for the return to a caliphate and a medieval power structure.
Western arms delivered to the Afghani Mujahedeen 40 years ago were turned on US troops 20 years later. $2.3 trillion and an (conservatively) estimated 243,000 lives later, the people of Afghanistan are more oppressed than ever. It's believed that the US has killed more than 20 million people in 37 countries since the end of WWII.
Source: more than 20 million dead
Whatever your opinion of the situation between Israel and Palestine, it's hard to imagine that the involvement of Western forces will be any more beneficial than it was elsewhere in the middle east.
There are no winners in war.

I think there are some winners (Arms industry)
You are right, Operation Cyclone was probably the most well-known op. sending Stinger Surface to Air manpads to the mujahideen, doing everything from Maktab al Khidamat (guess where, why and with whom?)

also the The brits did a very good job indeed with their extensive network of "special reconaissance services" Indeed a very interesting point would take all the way back from the sykes-picot accord, then the balfour declaration,


if people really keep forgetting history, there's no point in asking "whether lightning strikes twice at the same spot"

A lot of members are too young to appreciate the extensive history behind the hostilities. Or that Israel has been sidestepping accusations of war crimes for decades. Of course, nothing ever comes of it, because they hide behind the mighty American war machine. It's also worth noting the countless human rights atrocities committed by Mossad

 

[Kattt]

I spent time in Israel, Northern Africa from Morocco, Tunisia and Libya, Eastward through Turkey, Lebanon and South through Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. At no point did I feel unsafe with the noticeable exception of Israel.
Remember how the whole world joined forces to address apartheid in South Africa? No military interventions. Just a united and decisive combination of sanctions and embargoes. A method that has proven successful time and time again.
Deliberately shooting humanitarian aid workers and journalists is unacceptable.
Prior to 1948 the entire region was known as Palestine and although a British territory, was inhabited by Jews, Arabs and Christians. Dividing the nation to form a Zionist state led to the beginning of the conflict, unresolved to this day. Ensuing hostilities led a large majority being assigned as Jewish territory, with the Arabic population being displaced and forced into the West Bank and the Gaza strip. A tentative peace was secured with a significant area of land to be allocated through diplomatic means at a later date. However, Jewish settlers have illegally occupied much of that land. Israel is heavily militarised and movement of Palestinians between enclaves and for other purposes is increasingly restricted. Much of the infrastructure is under the control of Israel and supplies of clean water and electricity are often limited within the Palestinian enclaves. Within Israel, there are large numbers of armed personnel seemingly at every turn. Unlike countries where police carry firearms, in this case it's a military presence, in which most soldiers brandish automatic rifles.
While there are other countries that favour a particular religion or afford adherents of a particular religion preferential treatment, Israel is intended to be a Jewish homeland. The right to reside in a location according to religious affiliation is usually disapproved of by international bodies. It's been suggested that the assignment of this area to Zionists, during the mass exodus that followed WWII, was a solution to the "Jewish question". Land assigned so rigidly for the people of one religion could be likened to Afghanistan and even the parts of Syria and Iraq briefly named "Daesh" by the Islamic state. The majority of the Islamic state's territory is now in Northern Nigeria and Mozambique.
Israel boasts a defence system known as the "iron Dome" that intercepts missiles, The Gaza strip has been called "the world's largest open air prison" with more than 2 million Palestinians calling the 140 square miles home. The 8 decade long mêlée has become little more than a deadly game of tit-for-tat.

I think there are some winners (Arms industry)
You are right, Operation Cyclone was probably the most well-known op. sending Stinger Surface to Air manpads to the mujahideen, doing everything from Maktab al Khidamat (guess where, why and with whom?)

also the The brits did a very good job indeed with their extensive network of "special reconaissance services" Indeed a very interesting point would take all the way back from the sykes-picot accord, then the balfour declaration,


if people really keep forgetting history, there's no point in asking "whether lightning strikes twice at the same spot"

Good point about the beneficiaries of warfare. That's what forever wars are all about.
Oh, the British wrote the book on colonial oppression. It's worth noting that their noble gift of independence didn't extend to a number of small islands that share one particular feature. Legislation that is particularly amenable to those with an aversion to paying taxes. You need to go way back before sykes-picot. Long before the benefits of providing mercenaries to Jordanian Arab's, the upper class diplomats presided over the Raj, Nepal, Burma and beyond. A battalion of Gurkhas still remain loyal to the crown and an obscure tribe of otherwise "savage" subjects of the empire, worship the late queen's racist buffoon of a husband, not unlike a God.
Of course, it's a well known fact that every Englishman has afternoon tea at Buck house every year. London is at the mercy of cloaked fiends that tear around in horse drawn carriages, slicing up prostitutes willy nilly. Chimney sweeps infest the rooftops, singing to obscure the sound of kids stuck in chimneys since coal fires were banned and the fireplaces blocked. The rest of the country is exactly as described by Agatha Christie. For a more comprehensive illustration, there's a cracking reality television show by the name of "Downton abbey".
See what can be achieved by dumping all your undesirables as far away as possible without falling off the edge of the world?

 

[tiger b]

I don't understand what you mean. Dick Van Dyke has a lovely voice.

Oppression? It was civilization done for the good of the world, in the name of God! 'We' just dieted in the 1840s while continuing to export foods, and internment was jolly fun. Cap'n Boycott, God bless his soul - first victim of cancel culture. And Lloyd George's "kindest cut", of course made with no bearing whatsoever on the state of play in Westminster. What a magician he was.

Forgive me, for I am a lowly Mick, and obviously genetically lacking. But I still can't fail to see that the 'British' (those with power) were very quick to create situations...and even quicker to wash their bloody hands of it. And create some notion of national superiority that still bizarrely lingers...But that's ok, it'll be written out in the postmodernist history concocted by the influencers: what is your most comforting version of what happened? What does Andrew Tate think?

All empires are built on piss and shit. Wave flags and sing, lest anyone sees.

Such bollocks.

'Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia...'

 

[Pachy]

All i have to say is down with big brother. if you know you know.

 

[tiger b]

It doesn't even have to be a big conspiracy. Illuminati not required. It's far too easy for complicated methods.

Shutting down effective debate has never been so simple, by giving the pretence of a voice when you effectively have no voice at all.

 

[steppenwolf]

It's like watching someone throw a bucket of water over a chip pan fire

 

[tiger b]

And then turning the heat up even more.

 

[letmejoindeath]

the only way to escape the psyops is to stop participating

Big brother cannot be defeated because those who protect it BELIEVE they are they good guys. They have blind faith in the government and serve actual terrorism while watching us get screwed.

Belief is a powerful thing that people can use to treat you as a lesser because they are good.

History shows us that governments can become corrupt but everyone believes it isn't happening. Everyone has blind faith in themselves in this country and in themselves.

All it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to stand by and do nothing.