Discussion Recommendations For Morally Complex TV Shows?

[kane]

Feeling a bit like I might throw up at the moment, and looking for something to watch to take my mind off it. Very few shows really hold my attention these days, and I'm not really sure how to describe what I like. I've lost interest in so many things I used to enjoy - sitcoms etc. The only shows I'm watching right now are The Expanse and Attack On Titan. I guess I like sci-fi/fantasy settings, but only if there's a complexity or grittiness to them. Star Trek doesn't do much for me anymore, but I did like Battlestar Galactica. I loved Game of Thrones (though it got less good in later seasons) and the first season of Westworld. I like a bunch of historical dramas, though again mostly only if there's some moral complexity to the characters. Examples would be Rome, Deadwood, Black Sails, The Last Kingdom, the first few seasons of Vikings. I'm not really into anime, but do like some 'mature' cartoons - South Park etc.

I would say the best thing I've watched repeatedly is The Wire, though I'm not into cop shows. It's because it feels like it's about something more, and the characters feel true to life. I've bounced off a bunch of quality shows without really knowing why. Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, and Mad Men all seemed well made, but for some reason I didn't really find myself rooting for the characters.

So, in summary, I'm looking for:

1. Gritty sci-fi/fantasy/historical settings
2. Morally complex yet sympathetic characters
3. Something well written, acted etc.

I'd say a show has to have at least 2/3 for me to enjoy. Be interested in any suggestions and maybe I can refine my criteria.

 

[foxdie]

I would recommend Fringe, which is a sci-fi show about the the boundaries of science. It's a week by week show but also heavily serialized.

Also Godless on Netflix. It's a western mini series that I quite enjoyed. Both shows I find have sympathetic yet complex characters.

I hope you find something you can watch!

 

[kane]

I would recommend Fringe, which is a sci-fi show about the the boundaries of science. It's a week by week show but also heavily serialized.

Also Godless on Netflix. It's a western mini series that I quite enjoyed. Both shows I find have sympathetic yet complex characters.

I hope you find something you can watch!

Great recommendations! I remember enjoying the first season of Fringe back in the day. The plot seemed to get a bit over the top after that, but that's definitely the sort of thing I'm looking for. Also tried the first episode of Godless back when it came out - seemed fine, but for some reason it didn't hook me. Might give it another go though.

 

[foxdie]

Great recommendations! I remember enjoying the first season of Fringe back in the day. The plot seemed to get a bit over the top after that, but that's definitely the sort of thing I'm looking for. Also tried the first episode of Godless back when it came out - seemed fine, but for some reason it didn't hook me. Might give it another go though.

Yeah I agree about Fringe. J.J Abrams' mystery box shows can sometimes struggle under that conceit. I just really enjoyed the characters like Walter, very amusing while also tragic and morally grey.

I'd say Godless is worth it, but it is a slow burn. The good thing is it's only a mini series so it wraps up after 7 episodes I think.

 

[kane]

Yeah I agree about Fringe. J.J Abrams' mystery box shows can sometimes struggle under that conceit. I just really enjoyed the characters like Walter, very amusing while also tragic and morally grey.

I'd say Godless is worth it, but it is a slow burn. The good thing is it's only a mini series so it wraps up after 7 episodes I think.

Spot on about JJ Abrams - I was massively into Lost as a teen, but it slowly became clear there could never be a payoff for that much mystery. Yes, Walter was very compelling as a character. Might try Godless now (if I don't finally fall asleep first.)

 

[foxdie]

Spot on about JJ Abrams - I was massively into Lost as a teen, but it slowly became clear there could never be a payoff for that much mystery. Yes, Walter was very compelling as a character. Might try Godless now (if I don't finally fall asleep first.)

I was also a big fan of Lost. They were never going to be able to pay off all their mysteries in a satisfying manner. It was another show that I came to realize was full of compelling characters and the supernatural aspects we're way over hyped. Too much reliance on cliff hangers too. Still one of my favs shows tho, I've gone back and watched it a few times. I hope you have a good night!

 

[Bigpink]

I recommend Oz, has some faces from the Wire you'll recognise. Mindhunter on Netflix. Extraordinary Danish show Ride Upon the Storm

 

[MiserableBastard1995]

My memory sucks so I can't think of a recommendation, but it's nice to see someone else likes Black Sails. Hidden gem, that one.

 

[Sherri]

Surviving Death on Netflix.

 

[DocNo]

I recommend Oz, has some faces from the Wire you'll recognise. Mindhunter on Netflix. Extraordinary Danish show Ride Upon the Storm

yes. oz is besides the wire one of the series which i can't recommend enough.
but i guess oz is maybe not for everybody cause it somehow shoots you direct in the face. ^^

mindhunter i also liked.

My memory sucks so I can't think of a recommendation, but it's nice to see someone else likes Black Sails. Hidden gem, that one.

yep. i like black sails also a lot.



latest stuff i did watch was ricky gervais after life. cried a lot watching it.

 

[kane]

I'd say Godless is worth it, but it is a slow burn.

I did give Godless another go and got a fair bit further in before finally falling asleep. It is a slow burn but far more intriguing than I remember and definitely planning on continuing with it, so thanks!

I recommend Oz, has some faces from the Wire you'll recognise. Mindhunter on Netflix. Extraordinary Danish show Ride Upon the Storm

Heard a lot of great things about Oz, but think I might find it a bit bleak - the prison system terrifies me. Likewise with Mindhunter, watched a fair bit of the first season and thought it was good, but found the subject matter a bit unsettling. Think it was getting further into the mindset of killers than I was comfortable with (though I do like other bleak crime shows like True Detective.) Will give Ride Upon The Storm a try if I can find it anywhere (Borgen is another favourite of mine, apparently by the same writer.) More excellent recommendations!

My memory sucks so I can't think of a recommendation, but it's nice to see someone else likes Black Sails. Hidden gem, that one.

Yes, it gets so much deeper than just being a porny pirate show.

Surviving Death on Netflix.

Hmmm, I think I'd have to be in a very open-minded mood to get through anything involving mediums without getting irritated.

 

[Bigpink]

Oz can certainly be a tough and grim watch but I like that kind of thing, real, raw, unsentimental.
And can't go wrong with Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. Just finished Suburra on Netflix, Italian gangsters and seedy biz in the Catholic church

 

[kitch]

I watched "Hinterland" (UK , BBC ?) A welsh police drama.
Warning : Abuse triggers and a bit grim.
'Moral complexity' would describe it though ... great characters.
Oh . and subtitles because of Cymraeg.

 

[DocNo]

Oz can certainly be a tough and grim watch but I like that kind of thing, real, raw, unsentimental.
And can't go wrong with Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. Just finished Suburra on Netflix, Italian gangsters and seedy biz in the Catholic church

yeah. i like the "painful" to watch stuff. the harder and uncompromising i looks on some stuff the more i like it.

i also like a lot british stuff like "line of duty". "the capture" i also liked a lot.
police corruption and prison series are somehow often very unmasking and work good in drawing an image of society.

i also liked vis a vis - it's a spanish tv series about a female prison and available on netflix if i remember it right. but i guess it's not dubbed and subtitles only.

breaking bad and better call saul are classic series junkies stuff - so a classic no brainer ^^

 

[kane]

I guess I need a bit of sentimentality/hope mixed in with the grim grittiness (lol). It's a difficult balance for a show to reach. Maybe a criteria for me would be there being some potential way out of whatever the grim situation is for the characters to work toward, but I don't know if that always applies.

 

[Gerard de Nerval]

This may be a long shot, but there was a miniseries in Germany called Berlin Alexanderplatz. Its basically a 10 hour long film based on a great novel by Alfred Döblin. Morally ambiguous, impeccably written, and downright tragic.

Also will always recommend Twin Peaks. The second season is spotty but the third season is magnificent. There is a reason Cahiers du Cinema called it the best film (even though it's a whole season) of the decade.

 

[kane]

This may be a long shot, but there was a miniseries in Germany called Berlin Alexanderplatz. Its basically a 10 hour long film based on a great novel by Alfred Döblin. Morally ambiguous, impeccably written, and downright tragic.

Also will always recommend Twin Peaks. The second season is spotty but the third season is magnificent. There is a reason Cahiers du Cinema called it the best film (even though it's a whole season) of the decade.

Berlin Alexanderplatz looks interesting, may give it a go if I can find it somewhere. I've heard a lot of people rave about Twin Peaks. It sounds very stylish, but I think I avoided it because it seemed kind of...weird? Like it might be too ambiguous to understand what's actually going on, if that makes sense? I think in order to invest in a show I generally need to be able to get my head around what's happening - I don't like things being left too unresolved.

 

[Gerard de Nerval]

Berlin Alexanderplatz looks interesting, may give it a go if I can find it somewhere. I've heard a lot of people rave about Twin Peaks. It sounds very stylish, but I think I avoided it because it seemed kind of...weird? Like it might be too ambiguous to understand what's actually going on, if that makes sense? I think in order to invest in a show I generally need to be able to get my head around what's happening - I don't like things being left too unresolved.

Well, you won't like Twin Peaks. It's a beautiful show but if you don't like ambiguity its not for you I suppose. Shame because Lynch is a one of a kind of director. I guess if you watch the movie Blue Velvet and like it, try Twin Peaks.

 

[Bigpink]

This may be a long shot, but there was a miniseries in Germany called Berlin Alexanderplatz. Its basically a 10 hour long film based on a great novel by Alfred Döblin. Morally ambiguous, impeccably written, and downright tragic.

Also will always recommend Twin Peaks. The second season is spotty but the third season is magnificent. There is a reason Cahiers du Cinema called it the best film (even though it's a whole season) of the decade.

Yes I saw Berlin Alexanderplatz many years ago, not been repeated, maybe because of the scenes of violence involving the lead female character. The last episode was weird too, which I liked.

The Twin Peaks movie has many merits too.

 

[Gerard de Nerval]

Yes I saw Berlin Alexanderplatz many years ago, not been repeated, maybe because of the scenes of violence involving the lead female character. The last episode was weird too, which I liked.

The Twin Peaks movie has many merits too.

The epilogue is one of Fassbinder's finest works of art. Franz Biberkopf is a bastard towards women and others but I think the film, and the novel, demonstrates where that comes from.

I love Fire Walk With Me. The title music still haunts me to this day.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I dunno about morally complex because this show sometimes feel like it's just making fun of anyone who has ever been happy for any reason but both seasons of The Boys might be what you're looking for. It's overly violent and sexual but if you can look past it I guess it occasionally makes a good point or observation about how super powers might manifest in our real world society.

Usually though it's more about just pointing and laughing at the superhero genre and anyone who has ever enjoyed anything about it and pretending it's being deep for insulting you but of course sometimes to do that it pays homage to superhero comics just like the original comic did. Maybe that will appeal to you who knows.

But then again I personally don't consider Attack on Titan to be that deep either and I liked that show at first. The lore and biology of the Titans was the only thing that interested me so once I found out enough I decided I didn't need to see any more. Eventually I couldn't find any reason to stay invested in the characters or central conflict after knowing what the deal with the Titans was but I digress.

I think I'm just someone who doesn't like it when things try too hard to be serious. I'm more into finding deepness or complexity within simplicity because to me that's way more interesting than something just trying too hard to impress the viewer and usually failing.

 

[kane]

I dunno about morally complex because this show sometimes feel like it's just making fun of anyone who has ever been happy for any reason but both seasons of The Boys might be what you're looking for. It's overly violent and sexual but if you can look past it I guess it occasionally makes a good point or observation about how super powers might manifest in our real world society.

Usually though it's more about just pointing and laughing at the superhero genre and anyone who has ever enjoyed anything about it and pretending it's being deep for insulting you but of course sometimes to do that it pays homage to superhero comics just like the original comic did. Maybe that will appeal to you who knows.

But then again I personally don't consider Attack on Titan to be that deep either and I liked that show at first. The lore and biology of the Titans was the only thing that interested me so once I found out enough I decided I didn't need to see any more. Eventually I couldn't find any reason to stay invested in the characters or central conflict after knowing what the deal with the Titans was but I digress.

I think I'm just someone who doesn't like it when things try too hard to be serious. I'm more into finding deepness or complexity within simplicity because to me that's way more interesting than something just trying too hard to impress the viewer and usually failing.

Enjoyed the first season of The Boys and most of the second season - started to lose me toward the end though. When shows begin to clumsily touch on contemporary politics I generally checkout. I think there's a degree of moral complexity to all the characters - e.g. Homelander is a terrible person, but you can kind of understand how he got there. The Deep is creepy and pathetic, but also extremely insecure and exploited. The level of gore in the show is ridiculous though.

I don't know whether I'd call AoT deep, but particularly in the latest season there is a moral greyness to the characters actions. It's a war story where you eventually discover the motivations behind both sides of the conflict. You see terrible bewildering things happening to the characters, but gradually uncover what's really going on. Not sure I'd necessarily defend it as 'quality tv', but I suppose the level of melodrama and seriousness appeals to me - I like big, existential stakes. I think that's why I liked The Walking Dead for a long time.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Enjoyed the first season of The Boys and most of the second season - started to lose me toward the end though. When shows begin to clumsily touch on contemporary politics I generally checkout. I think there's a degree of moral complexity to all the characters - e.g. Homelander is a terrible person, but you can kind of understand how he got there. The Deep is creepy and pathetic, but also extremely insecure and exploited. The level of gore in the show is ridiculous though.

I don't know whether I'd call AoT deep, but particularly in the latest season there is a moral greyness to the characters actions. It's a war story where you eventually discover the motivations behind both sides of the conflict. You see terrible bewildering things happening to the characters, but gradually uncover what's really going on. Not sure I'd necessarily defend it as 'quality tv', but I suppose the level of melodrama and seriousness appeals to me - I like big, existential stakes. I think that's why I liked The Walking Dead for a long time.

Yeah, all true. I haven't seen Walking Dead though I don't think I'd like that either.

 

[ohhgeeitsme]

Off the top of my head, good shows close to what you describe are Dark, Stranger Things, The Handmaid's Tale, and The End Of The F***ing World. I know you said you don't usually like cop shows, but Broadchurch is too good not to recommend and has excellent acting and character development. The Twilight Zone is always great too, although I've only watched the original.. a lot.

​

 

[kane]

Yeah, all true. I haven't seen Walking Dead though I don't think I'd like that either.

I think it's a similar kind of theme of pushing your characters through this hellish fight for survival, forcing them to bond/grow stronger/search for new hope amid the horror. It got kind of ridiculous the longer it went on though, so not sure I'd recommend even if you're into that sort of thing.

Off the top of my head, good shows close to what you describe are Dark, Stranger Things, The Handmaid's Tale, and The End Of The F***ing World. I know you said you don't usually like cop shows, but Broadchurch is too good not to recommend and has excellent acting and character development. The Twilight Zone is always great too, although I've only watched the original.. a lot.

Really liked The End Of The F***ing World. And the first season of Broadchurch was excellent. Enjoyed the first couple of seasons of Stranger Things too. Couldn't really get into Dark for some reason - might give it another go. The Handmaid's Tale seemed well made but I think I was put off by everyone telling me how totally relevant it was to the present moment - I never really found the book particularly plausible as dystopian fiction goes. Have often heard The Twilight Zone referenced as the original sci-fi show - don't think I could handle the 60s production values though. Great recommendations!

 

[DocNo]

Off the top of my head, good shows close to what you describe are Dark, Stranger Things, The Handmaid's Tale, and The End Of The F***ing World. I know you said you don't usually like cop shows, but Broadchurch is too good not to recommend and has excellent acting and character development. The Twilight Zone is always great too, although I've only watched the original.. a lot.

dark i also liked.
and yeah the handmaids tale - didn't see anything that kafkaesque for some time.

 

[ohhgeeitsme]

Really liked The End Of The F***ing World. And the first season of Broadchurch was excellent. Enjoyed the first couple of seasons of Stranger Things too. Couldn't really get into Dark for some reason - might give it another go. The Handmaid's Tale seemed well made but I think I was put off by everyone telling me how totally relevant it was to the present moment - I never really found the book particularly plausible as dystopian fiction goes. Have often heard The Twilight Zone referenced as the original sci-fi show - don't think I could handle the 60s production values though. Great recommendations!

I really, reeeally loved Dark. I did have to pull up a family tree online to keep up though haha, especially since my cognition is totally shot. So that really helped. I think the second season was my favorite, but I loved the whole thing and the end. I'm really big on characters too. In order for me to truly love a show, I have to care about the characters as much as the story. There are exceptions I'm sure, but generally speaking. The Handmaid's Tale, being a stubborn woman myself, it was probably easier for me to become more emotionally invested in the characters. Still, good stuff. As for The Twilight Zone, I think the production value was great for the time and had impressive cinematography, but we all have our preferences so you still may not like it. The best part of the show was how each episode was a commentary on some aspect of humanity, very intelligent and timeless. A lot of the episodes tend to stick with you.

 

[MiserableBastard1995]

Just remembered another really good one on Netflix - Babylon Berlin. The series takes place in 1929 Berlin. It follows Gereon Rath, a police inspector on assignment from Cologne who is on a secret mission to dismantle an extortion ring, and Charlotte Ritter, police clerk by day, flapper by night, aspiring to become a police inspector. Deals with the aftermath of WWI and the traumas surrouding that, the rise of fascism in Germany, police corruption, crash of '29, etc.

 

[LastFlowers]

I guess I need a bit of sentimentality/hope mixed in with the grim grittiness (lol). It's a difficult balance for a show to reach. Maybe a criteria for me would be there being some potential way out of whatever the grim situation is for the characters to work toward, but I don't know if that always applies.

I'm currently rewatching The Leftovers and I wonder if this show would apply at all.
It also deals with the quandary of religion/faith vs science/practicality and how people deal with loss and uncertainty.
Lost fans would probably enjoy it and I feel like it handles the "questions left unanswered" aspect better within its 3 seasons. Definitely gets a little 'out there' though. For me that was a good thing (also the show's score and choice of music in so many of its scenes..just amazing.)

 

[Taki]

Rectify, on Netflix, is easily one of the best tv shows ever.