Discussion Recommendations For Morally Complex TV Shows?

[DocNo]

I'm currently rewatching The Leftovers and I wonder if this show would apply at all.
It also deals with the quandary of religion/faith vs science/practicality and how people deal with loss and uncertainty.
Lost fans would probably enjoy it and I feel like it handles the "questions left unanswered" aspect better within its 3 seasons. Definitely gets a little 'out there' though. For me that was a good thing (also the show's score and choice of music in so many of its scenes..just amazing.)

uh the leftovers. did see it a few months ago. was the last series i did see before i wanted to ctb.
it left a big impact on me and the music is just fabulous.

 

[kane]

Just remembered another really good one on Netflix - Babylon Berlin. The series takes place in 1929 Berlin. It follows Gereon Rath, a police inspector on assignment from Cologne who is on a secret mission to dismantle an extortion ring, and Charlotte Ritter, police clerk by day, flapper by night, aspiring to become a police inspector. Deals with the aftermath of WWI and the traumas surrouding that, the rise of fascism in Germany, police corruption, crash of '29, etc.

Sounds interesting, I'll give it a look.

I'm currently rewatching The Leftovers and I wonder if this show would apply at all.
It also deals with the quandary of religion/faith vs science/practicality and how people deal with loss and uncertainty.
Lost fans would probably enjoy it and I feel like it handles the "questions left unanswered" aspect better within its 3 seasons. Definitely gets a little 'out there' though. For me that was a good thing (also the show's score and choice of music in so many of its scenes..just amazing.)

I remember really liking season 1 of The Leftovers. But didn't they change location at the start of season 2 or something? I just remember it feeling kind of jarring and not knowing what was going on anymore. May go back to it at some point though. Agree that the music was beautiful.

 

[LastFlowers]

Sounds interesting, I'll give it a look.

I remember really liking season 1 of The Leftovers. But didn't they change location at the start of season 2 or something? I just remember it feeling kind of jarring and not knowing what was going on anymore. May go back to it at some point though. Agree that the music was beautiful.

Yes, they did change locations, I'm not sure how keen I was on certain things when first watching the second (and third) season, but on rewatch, I am really appreciating (most) everything about it.

 

[Random]

Romanzo criminale - la serie. Crime drama set in Rome in 1970's
The bureau - French political spy thriller

 

[Gerard de Nerval]

Romanzo criminale - la serie. Crime drama set in Rome in 1970's
The bureau - French political spy thriller

Thanks. I will really look into these. I know there is a new take on Lupin recently and want to give it a watch.

 

[K-O]

A "morally complex tv show" masterpiece is Dekalog!
cheers x

 

[DocNo]

A "morally complex tv show" masterpiece is Dekalog!
cheers x

uh kieslowski from the color trilogy. thanx for the tip!

 

[K-O]

uh kieslowski from the color trilogy. thanx for the tip!

you will appreciate the ost love x

 

[Panna]

If you like anime, you might enjoy legend of the galatic heroes, essentially it's a space drama that has the heart of its conflict between the empire and the free planet alliance, but it examines so much in it's run time (that's not saying much since it has over 100 episodes. Politics, religion, strategic warfare, theres fighting here and there but the centerstage is the strategies and the people fighting them. Early on they aren't much, but it is very interesting, and it doesn't pull it's punches either. One of my favorite episodes is when the free planet alliance tries to pull a coup, and they end up attacking a peaceful protest, murdering the lady in charge and causing it to break out into a full on riot.

 

[Sherri]

Sense 8, Black Mirror

 

[kane]

Sense 8, Black Mirror

Love Black Mirror, though it's got less good over the years.

 

[kite]

Better Call Saul, I love this show to death

 

[Imaginos]

Babylon 5. I'd been meaning to watch it for ages and, after having nearly finished watching the first season, I'm pleasantly surprised at just how much depth the show has. If you're into hard sci-fi, then it really doesn't get any better. Personally, I'm just kicking myself for not having watched it sooner.

I'm a big Star Trek fan, but I appreciate that Babylon 5 doesn't have alien races that are largely just just one-dimensional caricatures. In Star Trek, pretty much every major race can be summed up in one word. Ferengi are greedy, Vulcans are logical, Klingons are violent, Romulans are duplicitous, Cardassians are authoritarian, Bajorans are religious, et cetera. I also appreciate that humanity isn't sitting at the head of the table, the way they do in Star Trek, what with our species essentially being the literal center of the Federation. In Babylon 5, humanity is just trying to keep its head above water after almost being wiped out by the Minbari. Mankind is no more powerful or influential than any other alien race, and in fact are a little less so. Each major alien species present in Babylon 5 are given an agenda of their own and diplomatic maneuverings are the order of the day. No one species is any one thing. They just are. I also gotta say that the variety in topics is really great and they almost always have a lot of moral complexity to them. From worker's rights, to government corruption, to separatism, to religion, and, fittingly enough these days, to vicious anti-alien hate groups as well. Star Trek was always pretty hit and miss in this regard and could sometimes be pretty heavy handed in its delivery, but Babylon 5 really seems to be consistent in how smartly it gets these things across. The writing's really damn impressive for a show like this and each of the characters really shine in their own way.

When it comes to Star Trek, especially TNG, you had some characters which just felt utterly superfluous, not to mention uninteresting. Those like Deanna, Dr. Crusher, or Wesley. You'd also never see a character like Garibaldi on Star Trek. His presence adds a lot of gritty charm to Babylon 5. Star Trek was always about portraying a utopian dream of what humanity could be, but I feel like Babylon 5 shows what humanity actually would be. One's no better than the other and I love both, but Babylon 5 is a real breath of fresh air and, so far, is proving to be much more morally complex than Star Trek ever was. Even DS9 seems downright black and white when compared against Babylon 5.

I also really like that quintessentially 90s sci-fi asthetic that Babylon 5's got going on. It's clear to see just how much Babylon 5 itself influenced the likes of System Shock and Mass Effect. I mean, hell, the citadel in Mass Effect might as well be Babylon 5 station and the Alliance Military is essentially identical to Earth Alliance in Babylon 5, even down to the uniforms.

It saddens me greatly that never will a show like this be made again. What passes for sci-fi these days can barely even be defined as such. Just look at Star Trek's moldering and violated corpse in the form of Discovery and Picard, the fucking travesties they both are. I've heard "The Expanse" is supposed to be good, but I haven't gotten around to checking it out.

 

[Bigpink]

Battlestar Galactica, posits the theory whether the human race should survive, I know where I stand on that

 

[kane]

Babylon 5. I'd been meaning to watch it for ages and, after having nearly finished watching the first season, I'm pleasantly surprised at just how much depth the show has. If you're into hard sci-fi, then it really doesn't get any better. Personally, I'm just kicking myself for not having watched it sooner.

I'm a big Star Trek fan, but I appreciate that Babylon 5 doesn't have alien races that are largely just just one-dimensional caricatures. In Star Trek, pretty much every major race can be summed up in one word. Ferengi are greedy, Vulcans are logical, Klingons are violent, Romulans are duplicitous, Cardassians are authoritarian, Bajorans are religious, et cetera. I also appreciate that humanity isn't sitting at the head of the table, the way they do in Star Trek, what with our species essentially being the literal center of the Federation. In Babylon 5, humanity is just trying to keep its head above water after almost being wiped out by the Minbari. Mankind is no more powerful or influential than any other alien race, and in fact are a little less so. Each major alien species present in Babylon 5 are given an agenda of their own and diplomatic maneuverings are the order of the day. No one species is any one thing. They just are. I also gotta say that the variety in topics is really great and they almost always have a lot of moral complexity to them. From worker's rights, to government corruption, to separatism, to religion, and, fittingly enough these days, to vicious anti-alien hate groups as well. Star Trek was always pretty hit and miss in this regard and could sometimes be pretty heavy handed in its delivery, but Babylon 5 really seems to be consistent in how smartly it gets these things across. The writing's really damn impressive for a show like this and each of the characters really shine in their own way.

When it comes to Star Trek, especially TNG, you had some characters which just felt utterly superfluous, not to mention uninteresting. Those like Deanna, Dr. Crusher, or Wesley. You'd also never see a character like Garibaldi on Star Trek. His presence adds a lot of gritty charm to Babylon 5. Star Trek was always about portraying a utopian dream of what humanity could be, but I feel like Babylon 5 shows what humanity actually would be. One's no better than the other and I love both, but Babylon 5 is a real breath of fresh air and, so far, is proving to be much more morally complex than Star Trek ever was. Even DS9 seems downright black and white when compared against Babylon 5.

I also really like that quintessentially 90s sci-fi asthetic that Babylon 5's got going on. It's clear to see just how much Babylon 5 itself influenced the likes of System Shock and Mass Effect. I mean, hell, the citadel in Mass Effect might as well be Babylon 5 station and the Alliance Military is essentially identical to Earth Alliance in Babylon 5, even down to the uniforms.

It saddens me greatly that never will a show like this be made again. What passes for sci-fi these days can barely even be defined as such. Just look at Star Trek's moldering and violated corpse in the form of Discovery and Picard, the fucking travesties they both are. I've heard "The Expanse" is supposed to be good, but I haven't gotten around to checking it out.

I remember liking Babylon 5 back in the day, though I can't remember much of what happened and some of what I remember gets mixed up with DS9. I do remember being impressed by the level of political nuance going on though. I definitely found it more interesting than the utopian vision you get in Star Trek. I tried to rewatch it a while back but couldn't really get into the 90s production values - I think I've been spoiled by post millennium tv. You're right that it did have a big influence on things like Mass Effect though.
I really wanted to like Discovery, and I thought the premise was interesting, but about halfway through the first season I realized I didn't care about any of the characters.

I'd definitely recommend The Expanse - much more of a grimy, realistic take on humans in space, with the various factions struggling to coexist. You may have to overlook some dodgy accents though.
Also I'll give another shout to the remake of Battlestar Galactica, if you haven't seen it already. Though that's more of a militaristic take on space than pure sci-fi.
And personally, one of my favorites is Farscape - possibly because of how fucking weird it can get, but also most of the characters are highly flawed but lovable.

 

[Imaginos]

I tried to rewatch it a while back but couldn't really get into the 90s production values - I think I've been spoiled by post millennium tv.

Yeah, a lot of the CG effects are laughably terrible, but I don't know. For me, that just adds to the charm. I guess I just like how the station and everything you see appears very lived in. Everything feels a lot more organic than Terok Nor, otherwise known as DS9. As an aside, it's cool to see how many recognizable faces show up on Babylon 5. Stuff like how the actor who plays G'kar is also the actor who played Tomalak from TNG, or how Walter Koenig (Chekov) plays the role of the fiendish psy cop Besters. And, like you and I said, the political nuance is great as well, but, beyond that, I like how it still remembers that it's sci-fi. The Vorlons in particular are just great, although they do kind of remind me in appearance of the Sheliak from TNG. One of my favorite moments from Babylon 5 though is when G'Kar is describing how all of the major races (Narn, Centauri, Humanity, Minbari) have as much hope of understanding some of the forces at work in the universe, as an ant does of understanding them. It's stuff like that which makes Babylon 5 really memorable and unique.

I also appreciate that, far more than any incarnation of Star Trek ever did, Babylon 5 knows how to touch upon the most painful aspects of the human condition. Two examples of this would be when Sinclair and Dr. Franklin are talking with each other at the end of the episode involving the parents who won't let their kid get operated on because of their spiritual beliefs. In Star Trek, an episode like that would've had a happy ending, but Babylon 5 has the ability to take it in a darker and, I'd argue, more ultimately insightful direction. It leads to the characters asking questions of themselves and each other that would otherwise not be asked. I highly recommend watching the below scene to get an idea of what I mean. It's the sort of thing that I feel Star Trek has never been able to touch, in regards to really tapping into raw human pain.




Another example would be when Garibaldi and the grown-up daughter of his dead friend say their last goodbyes to each other at the end of their related episode together. Like the above, you get the same sort of moment where the writers manage to tap into something raw and very much relatable. I wish I could find the scene and post it here, but it doesn't seem to be available on YouTube. The below is a bit of consolation.




I'll also say that the show is genuinely funny at times and can have some really witty lines. The shenanigans Londo and G'Kar get up to leads to some really great stuff. The episode where G'Kar has an assassin trying to kill him was definitely one of the funnier episodes in particular.

Anyway, I can't help, but wonder how the rest of the series must be. Really hope it doesn't go downhill or anything, since the first season's been so amazing thus far.

I really wanted to like Discovery, and I thought the premise was interesting, but about halfway through the first season I realized I didn't care about any of the characters.

After hearing how unbelievably bad it was, I didn't even bother watching it. Same goes with Picard. To tell you the truth, I haven't even gotten around to watching Enterprise. And, honestly, I'd much rather go check it out then either STD or Picard. When it comes to Picard, although the TNG movies already shit all over Picard as a character, now the show is basically adding insult to injury, which is just sad. I'm not sure I could ever bear watching it as a result. I don't need to see his character diminished any more than it already has been.

I'd definitely recommend The Expanse - much more of a grimy, realistic take on humans in space, with the various factions struggling to coexist. You may have to overlook some dodgy accents though.

Yeah, I'll definitely get around to it at some point. Unlike yourself, I find it more difficult to watch contemporary sci-fi. It's too flashy and tends to be more cynically produced to try and get as wide an audience as possible, instead of just writing good sci-fi.

After I'm done with Babylon 5, I'll probably move on to Stargate actually. I never much cared for the insufferable Americentrism in Stargate, but I don't know. I can remember popping on SG1 when I was a teenager at times and enjoying it to some extent. The cast was certainly good and some of the stories could actually be pretty okay.

My next pick would definitely be Battlerstar Gallatica. I've always found it a little off-putting, since it seems a little bit melodrama-ish and the whole "everyone's a cylon" meme got to me before I could ever check it out, but I intend to give it a watch regardless. Hopefully I'll enjoy it.

And yeah, Farscape. That's another one I've never watched. That's the one that has Gene Roddenberry's name on it, right? It's got puppets and some guy in a black leather gimp suit, I think? I'll probably check that out at some point too.

In the end, chronic anhedonia makes it hard to get to this stuff. Usually I just nap and stare at the wall. Again, I'm just glad I finally got around to Babylon 5.

 

[kane]

Anyway, I can't help, but wonder how the rest of the series must be. Really hope it doesn't go downhill or anything, since the first season's been so amazing thus far....After hearing how unbelievably bad it was, I didn't even bother watching it.

I think I remember the quality holding up relatively well, though I think the plot expanded it's focus and became a bit less personal.
I'm not sure I'd say Discovery was that bad (but then I'm not a Trekkie). The characters just felt kind of...lifeless?

I find it more difficult to watch contemporary sci-fi. It's too flashy and tends to be more cynically produced to try and get as wide an audience as possible, instead of just writing good sci-fi.

I'd say that definitely applies to the recent Star Trek films. An advantage The Expanse has is being based on a (fairly decent) book series - so there's a deep and complex lore to the world, which they stick to pretty faithfully. Though they do insert the odd unnecessary space fight, especially in later seasons.

My next pick would definitely be Battlerstar Gallatica. I've always found it a little off-putting, since it seems a little bit melodrama-ish and the whole "everyone's a cylon" meme got to me before I could ever check it out, but I intend to give it a watch regardless. Hopefully I'll enjoy it.

It is a bit melodrama-ish, being primarily a war story focused on human extinction. And I think they very much played to the ratings with the cylon reveals. But many of the characters are great, it tackles a lot of thorny moral issues (largely inspired by the war on terror), and the acting is good. The ending didn't really satisfy me but I very much found myself caring about the characters.

And yeah, Farscape. That's another one I've never watched. That's the one that has Gene Roddenberry's name on it, right? It's got puppets and some guy in a black leather gimp suit, I think? I'll probably check that out at some point too.

I think it was made by Jim Henson's production company (the guy behind the muppets.) It does have a few puppets in, which from what I remember hold up really well compared to CG from the time (late 90s). It allows for some really cool alien designs. It is way more sexually charged than most sci-fi, though I think there's some kind of lore excuse for the gimp suit. Below is a pretty good summary of why it's appealing.

 

[sorella santini]

Dexter
The Killing
Homeland- the first three seasons
I know there are others I'm forgetting.

I loved the Wire too- great characters. I'm all about well written characters and unforced writing. I constantly struggle with finding something that keeps me watching. I've abandoned so many shows and movies.

 

[Imaginos]

I'm not sure I'd say Discovery was that bad (but then I'm not a Trekkie).

It's funny how I wouldn't exactly regard myself as a Trekkie either, since I don't know. A real Trekkie would probably watch STD merely for the fact that it's got the Star Trek name on it. For me, Star Trek kind of begins and ends at TOS, some of the original series movies, TNG and DS9. VOY, ENT, and everything after that is basically garbage as far as I'm concerned. I also don't regard the JJ-verse Star Trek as Star Trek. It's basically just a series of dumb sci-fi action movies with the Star Trek name plastered over top of it. I can't blame JJ too much though, since the TNG movies were basically the same thing. They might have been proper Star Trek in look, but in tone they were just dumb action movies. Even Jonathan Frakes (who directed First Contact and played Will Riker) said point blank in an interview that no one likes Star Trek for its utopianism or tackling of complex, morally gray subject matter. According to him, audiences just want action and witty one liners and that's it. I can't believe someone who was such a part of Star Trek could be that fucking clueless as to what made it work in the first place. JJ had admitted to never watching a minute of Star Trek in his life so at least he somewhat has an excuse here.

Anyway, STD and Picard are just more of the same garbage that JJ and company have been shoveling since the first reboot. Alex Kurtzman especially can't seem to keep his grubby mitts off Star Trek and STD/Picard, being primarily spawned from his empty head, are just beating a thoroughly dead horse. STD/Picard, like the JJ-verse films, aren't about going where no one's ever gone before, nor discovery of alien worlds, nor exploring the human condition. They're about lame, soap-opera tier interpersonal drama and trying to have some big bad threat that's going to annihilate the galaxy, which the entire run length of the show is devoted to portraying with nothing else in-between. Like I said, the flashiness takes precedence over the sci-fi. The sci-fi elements become little more than window dressing, just so you can have space ships zooming around and lasers going pew pew. Take that stuff away and it's no different than any other dumb, action heavy show out there.

In the end though, having watched TNG and DS9 to death, it's a lot harder for me to enjoy this newer, and much more homogenized, take on Star Trek. If you've never watched TNG or DS9, or really don't care that much about Star Trek as a default, then STD would probably be a lot more watchable. It sucks because it was kind of made for that purpose in mind. To attract viewers who don't care about Star Trek, instead of actually appealing to those that already do.

And yeah, The Expanse, by the way you describe it, sounds pretty good. Like I said, it's just hard for me to watch newer stuff, since it carries the risk of being more "contemporary" and trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. I prefer watching things before the dawn of this social media infested era. An older show, in a small way, can help make me forget about this wretched dystopia I find myself living in.

It is a bit melodrama-ish, being primarily a war story focused on human extinction. And I think they very much played to the ratings with the cylon reveals. But many of the characters are great, it tackles a lot of thorny moral issues (largely inspired by the war on terror), and the acting is good. The ending didn't really satisfy me but I very much found myself caring about the characters.

Beyond the cylon meme, I'd say one of the things which kept me away from Battlestar Galactica was the actress who plays Starbuck. I don't mind a woman being butch, but enh. On the surface, it seems like they took it way too far. I hope they manage to balance out her character a bit and she isn't just a one dimensional; "I'm the baddest bitch in the galaxy and I ain't gonna let no man tell me what to do!", type deal.

 

[kane]

I'd say one of the things which kept me away from Battlestar Galactica was the actress who plays Starbuck. I don't mind a woman being butch, but enh. On the surface, it seems like they took it way too far. I hope they manage to balance out her character a bit and she isn't just a one dimensional; "I'm the baddest bitch in the galaxy and I ain't gonna let no man tell me what to do!", type deal.

I think over the course of the show she came across as fairly nuanced. She's a 'loose cannon' etc, but I don't remember her gender being particularly emphasized. When she disobeys a command, it's not because it's given by a man, it's because she has that rogue element to her. They're at war, they need all hands on deck, and she just happens to be the best pilot. Whilst also being deeply screwed up, and eventually exploring a more 'nurturing' side, uncovering her past etc. This was back when female characters could be competent in 'traditionally male' settings without it being intended as an explicit political statement.

 

[Imaginos]

I think over the course of the show she came across as fairly nuanced. She's a 'loose cannon' etc, but I don't remember her gender being particularly emphasized. When she disobeys a command, it's not because it's given by a man, it's because she has that rogue element to her. They're at war, they need all hands on deck, and she just happens to be the best pilot. Whilst also being deeply screwed up, and eventually exploring a more 'nurturing' side, uncovering her past etc. This was back when female characters could be competent in 'traditionally male' settings without it being intended as an explicit political statement.

Yeah, fair enough. Having never watched the show, I'm speaking entirely from ignorance and what brief snippets of it I've managed to catch a glimpse of. Regardless of gender, so long as the character is fleshed out and isn't just a walking cliche, then I usually tend to be satisfied. Susan from Babylon 5 and Kira from DS9 are somewhat similar archetypes, but, over time, you get to see more sides of them, thereby allowing them the necessary growth/depth they need to develop, while hopefully making them more compelling in the process. I've definitely found that to be the case with Susan and she's as likeable for me as Garibaldi and Sinclair are. I actually like all the characters on Babylon 5, to be honest. My most disliked characters are usually those that have nothing going on beneath the surface. It's tough to think of examples like these, since I tend to forget all about them. I guess I'll mention TNG again and say how Wesley, Deanna, and Dr. Crusher, are all pretty much as bland and empty as the cheapest no name bread as far as meaningful characterization goes, or the lack thereof. Ro Laren from TNG was sorta half and half in this regard. She got a bit of depth here and there, but not really enough to make her compelling, so in the end she just sort of ends up being the "rebellious punk" character, without really much else going on.

And the of course you can have a character that was once compelling, only to slide into being one dimensional later on. One reason I really don't care for the later seasons of DS9 is how they took Benjamin Sisko's character and basically turned him into being about nothing else, but fulfilling his status as the prophet for the Bajoran people. They almost de-evolved his characterization, which really sucked if you ask me.

 

[kkatt]

TV is something that will rot your mind. I threw mine out of the bedroom window,
Ask yourself this....would you invite a complete stranger to stand in the corner of your room and tell you what to think and what to buy??????
The last decent thing I saw on TV was THE WIRE

 

[DocNo]

TV is something that will rot your mind. I threw mine out of the bedroom window,
Ask yourself this....would you invite a complete stranger to stand in the corner of your room and tell you what to think and what to buy??????
The last decent thing I saw on TV was THE WIRE

lol. i also removed my tv some time ago. my bedroom is in general electronics free. i still watch streaming stuff but it became a more active decision to watch stuff and not get dragged into this passive state of existence which eats your time away.

the wire is for sure a good last thing to see on tv ^^

 

[huzzahhue56]

It's funny how I wouldn't exactly regard myself as a Trekkie either, since I don't know. A real Trekkie would probably watch STD merely for the fact that it's got the Star Trek name on it. For me, Star Trek kind of begins and ends at TOS, some of the original series movies, TNG and DS9. VOY, ENT, and everything after that is basically garbage as far as I'm concerned. I also don't regard the JJ-verse Star Trek as Star Trek. It's basically just a series of dumb sci-fi action movies with the Star Trek name plastered over top of it. I can't blame JJ too much though, since the TNG movies were basically the same thing. They might have been proper Star Trek in look, but in tone they were just dumb action movies. Even Jonathan Frakes (who directed First Contact and played Will Riker) said point blank in an interview that no one likes Star Trek for its utopianism or tackling of complex, morally gray subject matter. According to him, audiences just want action and witty one liners and that's it. I can't believe someone who was such a part of Star Trek could be that fucking clueless as to what made it work in the first place. JJ had admitted to never watching a minute of Star Trek in his life so at least he somewhat has an excuse here.

Anyway, STD and Picard are just more of the same garbage that JJ and company have been shoveling since the first reboot. Alex Kurtzman especially can't seem to keep his grubby mitts off Star Trek and STD/Picard, being primarily spawned from his empty head, are just beating a thoroughly dead horse. STD/Picard, like the JJ-verse films, aren't about going where no one's ever gone before, nor discovery of alien worlds, nor exploring the human condition. They're about lame, soap-opera tier interpersonal drama and trying to have some big bad threat that's going to annihilate the galaxy, which the entire run length of the show is devoted to portraying with nothing else in-between. Like I said, the flashiness takes precedence over the sci-fi. The sci-fi elements become little more than window dressing, just so you can have space ships zooming around and lasers going pew pew. Take that stuff away and it's no different than any other dumb, action heavy show out there.

In the end though, having watched TNG and DS9 to death, it's a lot harder for me to enjoy this newer, and much more homogenized, take on Star Trek. If you've never watched TNG or DS9, or really don't care that much about Star Trek as a default, then STD would probably be a lot more watchable. It sucks because it was kind of made for that purpose in mind. To attract viewers who don't care about Star Trek, instead of actually appealing to those that already do.

And yeah, The Expanse, by the way you describe it, sounds pretty good. Like I said, it's just hard for me to watch newer stuff, since it carries the risk of being more "contemporary" and trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. I prefer watching things before the dawn of this social media infested era. An older show, in a small way, can help make me forget about this wretched dystopia I find myself living in.



Beyond the cylon meme, I'd say one of the things which kept me away from Battlestar Galactica was the actress who plays Starbuck. I don't mind a woman being butch, but enh. On the surface, it seems like they took it way too far. I hope they manage to balance out her character a bit and she isn't just a one dimensional; "I'm the baddest bitch in the galaxy and I ain't gonna let no man tell me what to do!", type deal.

there are plenty of people like this irl, idk what ur issue with these types of women are since there are plenty of unhinged men that have the same personality

 

[sugarb]

Feeling a bit like I might throw up at the moment, and looking for something to watch to take my mind off it. Very few shows really hold my attention these days, and I'm not really sure how to describe what I like. I've lost interest in so many things I used to enjoy - sitcoms etc. The only shows I'm watching right now are The Expanse and Attack On Titan. I guess I like sci-fi/fantasy settings, but only if there's a complexity or grittiness to them. Star Trek doesn't do much for me anymore, but I did like Battlestar Galactica. I loved Game of Thrones (though it got less good in later seasons) and the first season of Westworld. I like a bunch of historical dramas, though again mostly only if there's some moral complexity to the characters. Examples would be Rome, Deadwood, Black Sails, The Last Kingdom, the first few seasons of Vikings. I'm not really into anime, but do like some 'mature' cartoons - South Park etc.

I would say the best thing I've watched repeatedly is The Wire, though I'm not into cop shows. It's because it feels like it's about something more, and the characters feel true to life. I've bounced off a bunch of quality shows without really knowing why. Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, and Mad Men all seemed well made, but for some reason I didn't really find myself rooting for the characters.

So, in summary, I'm looking for:

1. Gritty sci-fi/fantasy/historical settings
2. Morally complex yet sympathetic characters
3. Something well written, acted etc.

I'd say a show has to have at least 2/3 for me to enjoy. Be interested in any suggestions and maybe I can refine my criteria.

Person of Interest is very good thus far, I'm halfway through the third season of 5. It has the odd hokey moment or less than stellar but it's never missed the mark where it counts. S3 has been very impressive

It definitely hits #2-#3 and I'd say it hits #1, but while it's gritty the sci-fi aspect isn't usually that overt.

Also, it was written by Chris Nolan's brother, if that pedigree means anything lol

It's a bit of a slow burn but things just keep building and building and building and the payoffs are worth it.

Others:

Oldboy (the original korean) is a gritty and weird movie but very enthralling. Good villain. Ticks 2/3.

The Chernobyl HBO drama is VERY good, highly recommend. Probably a 3/3

Annihilation (2018) is a great sci-fi movie. Maybe 2/3.

Sergio Leone's Dollars trilogy is an epic historical Western. Maybe 2/3 for you. I'm fond of the 3rd movie in particular.

Tombstone (1993). Also a good gritty Western. Well made, but the characters maybe aren't that complex. 2/3.

Gungrave (anime). Not the greatest work ever (animation is much inferior to AOT's) but it's still one of my favorite anime up there with NGE and Trigun (both also good and you might like). It's basically the Sopranos initially, then there's a twist and things get more Resident Evil-y. Great ending. Don't spoil it and don't watch the first episode

 

[Thisisnotaname]

The 100 , seems what you looking for

 

[Spike Spiegel]

Psycho pass on Hulu or Crunchyroll. I could write a paragraph about the show but it makes you question if the bad guy is right and society is wrong. Its one of those shows where after the first 2 episodes you will know if you like the show or not. None of that watch 2 seasons for it to get good.