Should Western countries welcome Russian refugees who don't want to fight?

[noname223]

I am not sure I am rather in favor of it? One could say they are pretty selfish they should have protested more. That they are opportunistic because they only care about it when it concerns their own life. On the other hand I would probably not have more courage than them. I am a very anxious person also about legal trouble. I would not have the courage to openly protest against Putin when you get tortured for it. If I had the money I would have fled earlier. The people who flee now seemingly have enough money to flee so why didn't they flee earlier?

I am really ambivalent. And there is the danger that Putin sends some terrorists. I always welcomed Ukrainian refugees and want that we give Ukraine more weapons.

Maybe the support for welcoming more refugees is limited. Maybe this is a good reason to say we prefer to give help to Ukrainian refugees. I think it is ethically a hard decision. There are also international contracts for such cases. I am glad I don't have the responsibility to do this decision. They will face a hard punsiment if they refuse to fight. I think this is an argument for giving them asylum.


What is your opinion on that?

 

[spectraltease]

Im not a pro-ukraine and not pro-russia but refugees are refugees. Tell me, what makes a ukraine rafugee better than a russian one? This debate about who is bad and deserves it or not is just cringe. I don't care really about this war.

 

[noname223]

Im not a pro-ukraine and not pro-russia but refugees are refugees. Tell me, what makes a ukraine rafugee better than a russian one? This debate about who is bad and deserves it or not is just cringe. I don't care really about this war.

What if the Russian people were in favor of the war against Ukraine but now think I don't t want that my life is in danger. What if they welcomed the massacres but changed the position when they themselves have to fight?

 

[GrumpyFrog]

Anyone who runs their mouth about how these people are selfish and opportunistic is a horrible person and should feel ashamed of themselves. It is understandable that someone might not care about total strangers from a strange country and their problems and even not want them around for selfish reasons. But justifying it with "those people deserve to suffer and die because they didn't try hard enough" is inhumane and gross. Even those who were pro-war but realized that they were wrong once the shit actually hit the fan deserve compassion as long as they are going to learn their lesson and aren't going to continue rallying for war after evading draft.
And I think most people that are genuinely pro-war aren't fleeing. Most of those people that try to run now were just naive and hoped things are going to blow over somehow - either because they trusted the news that told them that war "isn't that bad" or because when things get so bad you're basically cornered - wishful thinking often takes over. Many had many reasons to stay, but when it turned to "run or die" they no longer had a choice. From what I see, majority of Russians supporting war is total bullshit.
"You're a selfish coward, why don't you just protest" is just a bigger scale version of "you're a selfish coward, why don't you just go to therapy" if you catch my drift. Insisting that one tries a solution that either isn't available or clearly doesn't work and then blaming them for the fact it solves nothing.

 

[noname223]

Anyone who runs their mouth about how these people are selfish and opportunistic is a horrible person and should feel ashamed of themselves. It is understandable that someone might not care about total strangers from a strange country and their problems and even not want them around for selfish reasons. But justifying it with "those people deserve to suffer and die because they didn't try hard enough" is inhumane and gross. Even those who were pro-war but realized that they were wrong once the shit actually hit the fan deserve compassion as long as they are going to learn their lesson and aren't going to continue rallying for war after evading draft.
And I think most people that are genuinely pro-war aren't fleeing. Most of those people that try to run now were just naive and hoped things are going to blow over somehow - either because they trusted the news that told them that war "isn't that bad" or because when things get so bad you're basically cornered - wishful thinking often takes over. Many had many reasons to stay, but when it turned to "run or die" they no longer had a choice. From what I see, majority of Russians supporting war is total bullshit.
"You're a selfish coward, why don't you just protest" is just a bigger scale version of "you're a selfish coward, why don't you just go to therapy" if you catch my drift. Insisting that one tries a solution that either isn't available or clearly doesn't work and then blaming them for the fact it solves nothing.

This is a very compassionate answer especially when I think about your circumstances. You really don't desevere all the suffering you are going through.

 

[spectraltease]

What if the Russian people were in favor of the war against Ukraine but now think I don't t want that my life is in danger. What if they welcomed the massacres but changed the position when they themselves have to fight?

In Russia you are controlled. You will be brainwashed there, which happens in the USA too btw. What else do you want to think? You don't have access to real media, you've been raised to think like that. What else should you think/say, tell me. Have a little sense of reality. What do you think how many migrants came to europe, who were taliban in their homelands? Many. You not the only country, everything is ukraine cause european ppl have fear of a ww3. Do you think europe would care if you were a guy from afganistan? I don't think so. (Don't ban me, this is freedom of speech.)

 

[Julgran]

I am not sure I am rather in favor of it? One could say they are pretty selfish they should have protested more. That they are opportunistic because they only care about it when it concerns their own life. On the other hand I would probably not have more courage than them. I am a very anxious person also about legal trouble. I would not have the courage to openly protest against Putin when you get tortured for it. If I had the money I would have fled earlier. The people who flee now seemingly have enough money to flee so why didn't they flee earlier?

I am really ambivalent. And there is the danger that Putin sends some terrorists. I always welcomed Ukrainian refugees and want that we give Ukraine more weapons.

Maybe the support for welcoming more refugees is limited. Maybe this is a good reason to say we prefer to give help to Ukrainian refugees. I think it is ethically a hard decision. There are also international contracts for such cases. I am glad I don't have the responsibility to do this decision. They will face a hard punsiment if they refuse to fight. I think this is an argument for giving them asylum.


What is your opinion on that?

I would say that a refugee's country of origin is irrelevant, so all or none of them should be let in, depending on the recipient country's policies.

However, I believe that migration is immoral, since the recipient country may let refugees in just to have as tax slaves, while the refugees themselves may struggle to even find work or a living space to begin with.

In the current world situation, though, I don't believe that it's to anyone's benefit to move to western Europe or the USA, given their uncertain futures, which means that we are only inviting more future problems by inviting more people to western Europe.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I would say that a refugee's country of origin is irrelevant, so all or none of them should be let in, depending on the recipient country's policies.

However, I believe that migration is immoral, since the recipient country may let refugees in just to have as tax slaves, while the refugees themselves may struggle to even find work or a living space to begin with.

In the current world situation, though, I don't believe that it's to anyone's benefit to move to western Europe or the USA, given their uncertain futures, which means that we are only inviting more future problems by inviting more people to western Europe.

Yeah, but... what other options are there?

 

[Chinaski]

Yes, refugees should be accepted and welcomed unequivocally.

 

[Julgran]

Yeah, but... what other options are there?

I have been wearing the pessimist hat for many years now, so I don't see any functional way of "saving" anyone at all anymore.

One idea could be to try to move to more remote places in the world, such as South Africa, Tasmania or Iceland, and start a self-sustainable life with fishing and such - basically, going back to the roots of being a human being.

Also, if we return to the discussion about refugees, how can a refugee be sure that they won't be drafted into the army of the recipient country and be turned back with a rifle in their hands..?

 

[Chinaski]

I have been wearing the pessimist hat for many years now, so I don't see any functional way of "saving" anyone at all anymore.

One idea could be to try to move to more remote places in the world, such as South Africa, Tasmania or Iceland, and start a self-sustainable life with fishing and such - basically, going back to the roots of being a human being.

Also, if we return to the discussion about refugees, how can a refugee be sure that they won't be drafted into the army of the recipient country and be turned back with a rifle in their hands..?

Fucking hell what a post.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I have been wearing the pessimist hat for many years now, so I don't see any functional way of "saving" anyone at all anymore.

One idea could be to try to move to more remote places in the world, such as South Africa, Tasmania or Iceland, and start a self-sustainable life with fishing and such - basically, going back to the roots of being a human being.

Also, if we return to the discussion about refugees, how can a refugee be sure that they won't be drafted into the army of the recipient country and be turned back with a rifle in their hands..?

Oh, that kind of a pessimist hat. "The end is nigh" one. Okay, I see.
I'm not sure how migration would be "immoral" if everyone is doomed and no one can be saved anyway, though.

 

[Julgran]

Oh, that kind of a pessimist hat. "The end is nigh" one. Okay, I see.
I'm not sure how migration would be "immoral" if everyone is doomed and no one can be saved anyway, though.

As I see it, immigration is only immoral the way it works today, where people are basically promised a better life by immigrating to the recipient country, but then they end up on the street or receive no further help from the state. I didn't mean that the immigrants themselves are immoral.

 

[Chinaski]

JULGRAN'S NEIGHBOUR: please help, my house, it's on fire, my child, she very sick,

JULGRAN: wait have you considered the economic implications of my providing you with shelter? This could impact the household budget and ultimately lead to more borrowing, this could potentially leave you trapped in a harmful culture of dependency. Whilst my offering you shelter and assistance while your life is at risk may appear to be the obvious option at face value, if analysed intelligently it soon becomes clear that pitching a tent in the middle of nowhere and surviving on berries, or holing up in a telephone box, would provide the basic requirements of shelter whilst also promoting a healthy self-sufficiency which would benefit the community as a whole in terms of long-term economic growth. Then there's the issue of integration, in that providing you with shelter will naturally lead to my own personal cultural denigration as you impose cultural hegemony over time, and this negative impact must be considered as part of the overall balance. Finally, there is the possibility of my house also catching fire. Sheltering you in the short term may sound appealing to you now, but it is clear you haven't considered the bigger picture and planned for the worst case scenario here.

 

[Julgran]

JULGRAN'S NEIGHBOUR: please help, my house, it's on fire, my child, she very sick,

JULGRAN: wait have you considered the economic implications of my providing you with shelter? This could impact the household budget and ultimately lead to more borrowing, this could potentially leave you trapped in a harmful culture of dependency. Whilst my offering you shelter and assistance while your life is at risk may appear to be the obvious option at face value, if analysed intelligently it soon becomes clear that pitching a tent in the middle of nowhere and surviving on berries, or holing up in a telephone box, would provide the basic requirements of shelter whilst also promoting a healthy self-sufficiency which would benefit the community as a whole in terms of long-term economic growth. Then there's the issue of integration, in that providing you with shelter will naturally lead to my own personal cultural denigration as you impose cultural hegemony over time, and this negative impact must be considered as part of the overall balance. Finally, there is the possibility of my house also catching fire. Sheltering you in the short term may sound appealing to you now, but it is clear you haven't considered the bigger picture and planned for the worst case scenario here.

You are misreading what I wrote. My point was this: why flee to another sinking ship - a country that can't realistically provide you with a better life..?

 

[Suicidebydeath]

All countries should accept all refugees.

 

[Chinaski]

Idk, maybe because their actual lives are at risk where they are.

It's funny how since this conflict began the issue of refuge for those fleeing has been considered on here in such a chin-stroking way, as if civilians caught in conflict are just collateral and it's just tough shit for them. For a forum which supposedly prides itself on "empathy" it's odd how those who seem to demand it the most on here (lads who don't get their dick sucked as often as they would like) exhibit so little of it in return when discussing very severe problems faced by others (their actual lives being under threat by being caught up in an actual fucking war for example).

 

[makethepainstop]

Sorry but my answer is hell no! America has millions of disease-bearing third worlders currently invading the nation. So hell no we have enough here already.
Wonder why prices are so high on everything? That unlimited third worlders for creating a high demand, that in turn drives prices every higher,

 

[Julgran]

Idk, maybe because their actual lives are at risk where they are.

It's funny how since this conflict began the issue of refuge for those fleeing has been considered on here in such a chin-stroking way, as if civilians caught in conflict are just collateral and it's just tough shit for them. For a forum which supposedly prides itself on "empathy" it's odd how those who seem to demand it the most on here (lads who don't get their dick sucked as often as they would like) exhibit so little of it in return when discussing very severe problems faced by others (their actual lives being under threat by being caught up in an actual fucking war for example).

You don't seem to be concerned about Ukrainians being used as cannon fodder for the Russian state, if those people decide to leave for Russia through the "green corridor" then, right..? The same kind of situation can arise in the Armenia/Azerbaijan war, or anywhere else.

Just because one doesn't die immediately after migrating to another country doesn't necessarily mean that their future life will be any better than dying suddenly in their country of origin, as I have described previously.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

Sorry but my answer is hell no! America has millions of disease-bearing third worlders currently invading the nation. So hell no we have enough here already.
Wonder why prices are so high on everything? That unlimited third worlders for creating a high demand, that in turn drives prices every higher,

"Ew" aside, I just want to point out that neither of the countries involved in the Russia-Ukraine conflict is, in fact, third world.

Just because one doesn't die immediately after migrating to another country doesn't necessarily mean that their future life will be any better than dying suddenly in their country of origin, as I have described previously.

I think if people fleeing Russia didn't think that working for a low wage, or even being unemployed and homeless, was better than risking your life and limbs in a middle of an active war conflict - they wouldn't flee. I also think most people would agree that this is the case. I know it is a difficult perspective to relate to on a suicide forum, but most people actually prefer a rather shitty life to dying. The extent of how bad it has to get for the person to say "I'd rather die" varies from person to person, but if people saw dying as preferable to being a homeless refugee sleeping on a street, they'd probably try to catch that other bus that we're all waiting for here. Which is also happening to many people, sadly, there was even a self-immolation attempt.

 

[Julgran]

I think if people fleeing Russia didn't think that working for a low wage, or even being unemployed and homeless, was better than risking your life and limbs in a middle of an active war conflict - they wouldn't flee.

This is correct, but what are they basing their hopes on...? That's the question.

I also think most people would agree that this is the case. I know it is a difficult perspective to relate to on a suicide forum, but most people actually prefer a rather shitty life to dying. The extent of how bad it has to get for the person to say "I'd rather die" varies from person to person, but if people saw dying as preferable to being a homeless refugee sleeping on a street, they'd probably try to catch that other bus that we're all waiting for here. Which is also happening to many people, sadly, there was even a self-immolation attempt.

I agree

However, instead of perpetual migration, I would love to see illegal wars of aggression end - that goes for both Russia and the western countries. That way, migration wouldn't be as necessary for some people.

 

[Chinaski]

You don't seem to be concerned about Ukrainians being used as cannon fodder for the Russian state

What is making you draw this conclusion

 

[Julgran]

What is making you draw this conclusion

I drew that conclusion from your post in which you don't seem to care for the long-term consequences of immigration.

However, this thread is mainly about Russian refugees, and seeing how negative the views of western countries is, in the media, those Russians may not be very welcome by the people in the west - we will have to wait and see.

 

[Chinaski]

I drew that conclusion from your post in which you don't seem to care for the long-term consequences of immigration.

However, this thread is mainly about Russian refugees, and seeing how negative the views of western countries is, in the media, those Russians may not be very welcome by the people in the west - we will have to wait and see.

Make it make sense please

 

[Julgran]

Make it make sense please

I'm referring to post 14 and 17. My view is that you are treating immigration in exactly the way western governments do - namely, to increase the amount of tax cattle, without actually caring for the migrants' best interests, when there could, possibly, be better places to migrate to.

 

[Chinaski]

I'm referring to post 14 and 17. My view is that you are treating immigration in exactly the way western governments do - namely, to increase the amount of tax cattle, without actually caring for the migrants' best interests, when there could, possibly, be better places to migrate to.

You are a fool.

 

[𖣴 nadia 𖣴]

Sorry but my answer is hell no! America has millions of disease-bearing third worlders currently invading the nation. So hell no we have enough here already.
Wonder why prices are so high on everything? That unlimited third worlders for creating a high demand, that in turn drives prices every higher,

You might want to look up the definition of the word 'invading.'
Weren't the 'Pilgrims' and 'Explorers' like Christopher Columbus just disease-bearing, small pox carrying immigrants, who invaded the land belonging to the Native Americans? They also had high demands hence the land-grabbing, enslavement of natives and exploitation of natural resources such as gold. Don't you guys celebrate those disease-bearing invaders every Thanksgiving?

 

[Julgran]

You are a fool.

You are free to believe whatever you wish. I can't argue against that, so you must be correct

 

[Chinaski]

You might want to look up the definition of the word 'invading.'
Weren't the 'Pilgrims' and 'Explorers' like Christopher Columbus just disease-bearing, small pox carrying immigrants, who invaded the land belonging to the Native Americans? They also had high demands hence the land-grabbing, enslavement of natives and exploitation of natural resources such as gold. Don't you guys celebrate those disease-bearing invaders every Thanksgiving?

If you're going to ask a right-wing American if they know anything about the history of their own country you might as well also ask a dog if it knows how to make an omelette.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

This is correct, but what are they basing their hopes on...? That's the question.

Most Western countries are far from being as screwed as Russia is right now. They didn't fight any wars on a scale that would require them to start drafting everyone for the last 50 years or more, and don't seem to be too keen on changing this trend. In the last 6 months, NATO made it abundantly clear that it has no interest in directly dragging itself into any of the military conflicts that do not involve it's members, and UN made it abundantly clear that their peace corps exist for small third world countries and when someone who poses a global threat enters the stage they limit their involvement to being gravely concerned. And for all the talk about the evil West, Russian government seems pretty satisfied with their idea of fighting the US hegemony by beating down on a small guy that was chosen as a proxy because they can't fight back. There was plenty of proxy wars between the eastern block and the collective West in the last century, and none of them resulted in a direct confrontation between the main powers, so why this one should be any different? Nuclear war destroying the western civilization is not entirely outside of the realm of possibility - but that prognosis is about as pessimistic as you can get, most people are at least somewhat more positive about the future. So not being in Russia, Ukraine, or other countries that are not doing particularly well, such as Afghanistan, Mexico, Yemen or Ethiopia, seems like a hopeful option to people seeking refuge.