Should Western countries welcome Russian refugees who don't want to fight?

[Julgran]

Lmao at your repeated use of this weird flex of faux-superiority each fucking time. The points are clear: yes people should be given safety from harm, there are no "longer term impacts" that need to be factored in. The argument that refuge is perhaps not in the best interests of civilians who are collateral in conflict is so unambiguously moronic it can only be put forward by someone who is either unutterably fucking thick or someone making the argument disingenuously in order to mask their guttural or political dislike of foreign types emigrating, in this case it's very possibly both.

So then we disagree, since my point is that moving to Europe won't solve any problems that one may have.

Is this the end of the discussion, then..?

 

[Chinaski]

So then we disagree, since my point is that moving to Europe won't solve any problems that one may have.

Is this the end of the discussion, then..?

This is an astute point tbf, similarly there is no reason to rescue people from burning buildings because in the long term it will still not remedy their eczema.

 

[Julgran]

This is an astute point tbf, similarly there is no reason to rescue people from burning buildings because in the long term it will still not remedy their eczema.

Well, you are actively showing that you haven't read what I have actually written, so you will need to take this attitute elsewhere.

If you wish to continue this conversation, you can quote specific parts of what I have written that you wish to discuss, so that we may continue on an even basis.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I hope you can understand how I might find it hard to grasp your point of view when you simultaneously say this

What I'm "recommending" to potential Russian refugees is also what I would "recommend" to anyone else who would consider moving to a country within the European Union, since the way of life - the way we have known it in the west - is dissipating. Therefore, it's better to move elsewhere.

and this

that's the reason for me saying that the Russian refugees may have no other option than to move to Europe.

so it kind of came off as you were trying to say "these people should consider other options, even though I know they might not have any". However,

However, they could also move to Europe as a first step, and then try to move even further away thereafter.

This does finally clear it up for me and makes it make sense to an extent.
I do not share your expectation for the western way of life to dissipate in the nearest future and I still believe that this view is extremely pessimistic. But you did admit to being a pessimist, and since neither of us has a crystal ball that can see into the future, I think this is where we can agree to disagree. If you turn out to be right and there is a major crisis in EU in the near future, these people will almost definitely move elsewhere instead of fighting for scarce resources with Europeans. People that left Russia with any amount of hope for a happy prosperous life in the West are the ones that were leaving at the start of the war. The ones that are fleeing now are the people that were sitting it out until the very end precisely because they aren't very hopeful about their prospects elsewhere, but now they are cornered and don't have much choice.
While I do know that some refugees/asylees end up migrating permanently and eventually achieving citizenship and/or living their entire lives abroad and giving birth to a new generation that gets the citizenship of the recipient country, the idea behind the refugee/asylee status is to provide temporary shelter until the things either take a turn for better (the issue that made people flee their country of origin is resolved and it's safe for them to go home) or, in the most unfortunate cases, for worse (the situation in the recipient country is no longer safe, so the refugees need to leave and seek shelter elsewhere). So I think what you describe pretty much fits the bill of Russians seeking refuge in Europe. If the point you're making is that those people shouldn't expect that their move to the west is permanent and their lives their would be perfect, I can understand that and get behind that.

 

[Julgran]

I hope you can understand how I might find it hard to grasp your point of view when you simultaneously say this

and this

so it kind of came off as you were trying to say "these people should consider other options, even though I know they might not have any". However,

I see your point. In the second paragraph, I only mean that the refugees may be finding themselves in such precarious situations that they have no way of choosing where to flee to, since a war can erupt so suddenly. They might not even have access to their money, passport and other belongings, so it might make it hard for them to get anywhere at all. This kinf of situation may make it mandatory for the refugees to flee to the nearest safest country, which happens to be likely to be one within the European Union. However, in the first paragraph, I stated that I see no long-term prospect for moving or fleeing to Europe, given the fact that our standard of living in changing for the worse.

This does finally clear it up for me and makes it make sense to an extent.
I do not share your expectation for the western way of life to dissipate in the nearest future and I still believe that this view is extremely pessimistic. But you did admit to being a pessimist, and since neither of us has a crystal ball that can see into the future, I think this is where we can agree to disagree. If you turn out to be right and there is a major crisis in EU in the near future, these people will almost definitely move elsewhere instead of fighting for scarce resources with Europeans. People that left Russia with any amount of hope for a happy prosperous life in the West are the ones that were leaving at the start of the war. The ones that are fleeing now are the people that were sitting it out until the very end precisely because they aren't very hopeful about their prospects elsewhere, but now they are cornered and don't have much choice.
While I do know that some refugees/asylees end up migrating permanently and eventually achieving citizenship and/or living their entire lives abroad and giving birth to a new generation that gets the citizenship of the recipient country, the idea behind the refugee/asylee status is to provide temporary shelter until the things either take a turn for better (the issue that made people flee their country of origin is resolved and it's safe for them to go home) or, in the most unfortunate cases, for worse (the situation in the recipient country is no longer safe, so the refugees need to leave and seek shelter elsewhere). So I think what you describe pretty much fits the bill of Russians seeking refuge in Europe. If the point you're making is that those people shouldn't expect that their move to the west is permanent and their lives their would be perfect, I can understand that and get behind that.

Then you and me finally understand each other, and I wish you good luck if you find yourself in a need to migrate

 

[Angi]

For me, refugees are refugees no matter where they come from, and I would welcome them at least.
If I turn a blind eye to refugees, who will welcome me if I become a refugee as well?

I second this opinion.
Remember the scene from The Day After Tomorrow, where climate change screws over the US and their citizens are glad Mexico lets them in? Well I think we should treat refugees well and hope dearly that their countries will take us when we find ourselves forced to leave home.

Also, all parties of this equation are human, and I do not believe in humans who are worth more than others, or who deserve having their basic needs met more than others.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

Remember the scene from The Day After Tomorrow, where climate change screws over the US and their citizens are glad Mexico lets them in? Well I think we should treat refugees well and hope dearly that their countries will take us when we find ourselves forced to leave home.

As someone who spent their entire life naively believing that devastating wars are endemic to countries that have severe political and/or economic issues in the first place, and that my country was somehow immune to that by the virtue of being too democratic and not messed up enough, I couldn't agree more.

A sad irony is that the Russian population is in that precise situation right now. The majority of people fleeing Russia are going to other post-Soviet countries that historically had a significant number of economic migrants trying to move from those countries to Russia, and those migrants were usually not welcomed by the political right. I don't think any of those right-wingers ever thought that Russians will ever be forced to seek shelter in those countries, yet here we are. However, I must say that most people that running are not the conservative political right, so I am not suggesting that they should be held responsible for the attitudes that some of the people in their country had towards immigrants before the war.

 

[Pluto]

The other thing to keep in mind is that refugees/immigrants are not merely numbers, nor burdens on the host country. Everything from cuisine to arts is enriched through multiculturalism. People who are fleeing a difficult situation tend to be motivated, which is why they so often make exceptional contributions. Overall, the benefits tend to outweigh the challenges.

To use an extreme example, an immigrant to the US from a war-torn country put man on the moon.

 

[Camper]

My opinion on refugees, regardless of their race, ethnicity, or religion, is that ideally women and children under 16 should be welcomed with open arms. Men, especially single, young men, have a notorious tendency of bringing crime with them to whatever countries they seek refuge in, and just overall struggle more to adapt to the local culture. Most Russian refugees are single men just by virtue of why they're trying to escape their country (draft dodging). So no, I personally wouldn't want them in my country.

 

[Chinaski]

My opinion on refugees, regardless of their race, ethnicity, or religion, is that ideally women and children under 16 should be welcomed with open arms. Men, especially single, young men, have a notorious tendency of bringing crime with them to whatever countries they seek refuge in, and just overall struggle more to adapt to the local culture. Most Russian refugees are single men just by virtue of why they're trying to escape their country (draft dodging). So no, I personally wouldn't want them in my country.

I too think working class people in war-torn areas should be shot en masse on the basis that there's a possibility one of them might be a shoplifter, and my community would be irreperably damaged should this hypothetical individual be let loose within the local Londis.

 

[Camper]

I too think working class people in war-torn areas should be shot en masse on the basis that there's a possibility one of them might be a shoplifter, and my community would be irreperably damaged should this hypothetical individual be let loose within the local Londis.

Nice debunk. Were you asleep during all of 2015?

 

[Chinaski]

Nice debunk. Were you asleep during all of 2015?

What specifically happened in 2015 which made refusal of refuge to civilians at risk to life and limb necessary in order to curb regional crime?

 

[Camper]

What specifically happened in 2015 which made refusal of refuge to civilians at risk to life and limb necessary in order to curb regional crime?

2015 European migrant crisis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Chinaski]

Yeah l was aware of this, l still don't understand the position, as if when it comes to giving asylum to those fleeing immediate danger in their homeland their urgent human need has to be counterbalanced against some hyped-up fears of the reactionary, l mean l seriously do not get it, these are human lives of equal value to yours and mine, the very basic and fundamental need to feel safe is an undeniable right of everyone.

 

[Julgran]

Your text was deleted.

An additional problem - concerning potential refugees from Russia in this current conflict situation - is that they may not be welcome in the west at all, by the people who already live there. When or if the west makes a turn for the worse, the people there may say "Those damned Russians stole our gas and caused this hunger crisis! Let's kill them!" - such acts of hatred are not uncommon throughout history.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

An additional problem - concerning potential refugees from Russia in this current conflict situation - is that they may not be welcome in the west at all, by the people who already live there. When or if the west makes a turn for the worse, the people there may say "Those damned Russians stole our gas and caused this hunger crisis! Let's kill them!" - such acts of hatred are not uncommon throughout history.

If we continue this line of thinking, this sounds like an argument against being alive. Which would not really surprise me all that much, considering the nature of this site, but I just find it interesting.

 

[Julgran]

If we continue this line of thinking, this sounds like an argument against being alive. Which would not really surprise me all that much, considering the nature of this site, but I just find it interesting.

It's unclear what you mean. My point is that Russian refugees - and also other people who are in a similar position to them - should take care of themselves when they reach their destination country - especially now that Russian have been painted as the devil in the media, as I said earlier in this thread. For example, it could be of interest for Russians to pretend to be Ukrainian refugees, if they decide to move to a western country, instead of revealing their true nationality.

 

[Chinaski]

If we continue this line of thinking, this sounds like an argument against being alive. Which would not really surprise me all that much, considering the nature of this site, but I just find it interesting.

I think it's not right or fair for people on this site to impose their own value on life on others tbh.

An additional problem - concerning potential refugees from Russia in this current conflict situation - is that they may not be welcome in the west at all, by the people who already live there. When or if the west makes a turn for the worse, the people there may say "Those damned Russians stole our gas and caused this hunger crisis! Let's kill them!" - such acts of hatred are not uncommon throughout history.

I don't know how many times this has to be hammered home but for people seeking refuge it's life or death, it's the difference between safety and danger. Yes, hypothetically a refugee could get hit by a bus in their place of asylum, this does not supersede the initial principle. Just say you don't like foreign types imo.

 

[Julgran]

I don't know how many times this has to be hammered home but for people seeking refuge it's life or death, it's the difference between safety and danger. Yes, hypothetically a refugee could get hit by a bus in their place of asylum, this does not supersede the initial principle. Just say you don't like foreign types imo.

I already stated that I'm not concerned about the nationality of refugees, earlier in this thread, and I also mentioned that Muslims aren't treated well in the west. You only seem to keep ignorant of what has actually been said in this thread.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

It's unclear what you mean. My point is that Russian refugees - and also other people who are in a similar position to them - should take care of themselves when they reach their destination country - especially now that Russian have been painted as the devil in the media, as I said earlier in this thread. For example, it could be of interest for Russians to pretend to be Ukrainian refugees, if they decide to move to a western country, instead of revealing their true nationality.

Oh, I see.
I just thought it was another argument against them trying to come to the West (might be because of the deleted post that got me confused). Which, if we continue that line of thinking, would mean that trying to survive is not a good idea if there are potential threats on a horizon, and would also put into question whether people in the West (or anywhere else really) should try to survive considering that nobody is really totally save from potential violence. However, now I see that it was not what you meant.

 

[Julgran]

Your text has been deleted.

Regarding "mass murders", it's up to you to believe whatever you wish, and to take responsibility for your ideas.

Speaking of the Titanic, though - as I see it - you are arguing for the opposite - namely, that Russian refugees should be lured onto a sinking ship, which is the west, which is why I recommended that they seek shelter elsewhere in the world.

 

[Chinaski]

THE SS BIG BRAINS WHEN RUSSIA INVADES UKRAINE: why the fuck isn't the west helping these poor people by way of carpet bombing and unleashing nuclear warfare? Why aren't people joining up to kick putins ass? I notice the usual snowflakes on here are silent for a change, obviously all putin apologists who dgaf about the plight of civilians!!!

ALSO THE SS BIG BRAINS WHEN REFUGE IS SOUGHT AS A RESULT OF THE CONFLICT: whoa wait a second, now this is very complicated indeed, let's not rush to a hasty solution here which could prove worse in the long run, this could expose refugees to the west's notoriously unreliable street naming and numbering system, imagine if one were to land in a new country and immediately get lost, then they could end up living next door to a real asshole, not sure anyone would want that!!! Also is a hypothetical increase in petty crime a price l should pay just to keep foreign people alive, yes l am serious, good faith engagement only please or l shall bid you good day sir!!!

 

[Julgran]

Your text has been deleted.

Keep in mind that many people said that Russia would never invade the Ukraine - they were wrong, since they were unaware of the facts on the ground.

 

[Lys_C15H25N3O_d3]

I am not sure I am rather in favor of it? One could say they are pretty selfish they should have protested more. That they are opportunistic because they only care about it when it concerns their own life. On the other hand I would probably not have more courage than them. I am a very anxious person also about legal trouble. I would not have the courage to openly protest against Putin when you get tortured for it. If I had the money I would have fled earlier. The people who flee now seemingly have enough money to flee so why didn't they flee earlier?

I am really ambivalent. And there is the danger that Putin sends some terrorists. I always welcomed Ukrainian refugees and want that we give Ukraine more weapons.

Maybe the support for welcoming more refugees is limited. Maybe this is a good reason to say we prefer to give help to Ukrainian refugees. I think it is ethically a hard decision. There are also international contracts for such cases. I am glad I don't have the responsibility to do this decision. They will face a hard punsiment if they refuse to fight. I think this is an argument for giving them asylum.


What is your opinion on that?

How can i give my opinion on "should western countries welcome russian refugess who dont want to fight" without giving my opinion on "should ukraine execute for treason its citizens who don't want to fight?" man come on, ukrainians and russians were historically more related and close (at least until 2004 08 and finally 14) than any of us "third worlders or multi-ethnical background people born in "colonized third world countries"

Why is that even in a sue caedere forum some people seem to rush "to their opinions" without even having a clue or understanding - The World has been at war ever since "colonists" came to "our" (not even ours) third-world disease infested dens of "illegal aliens" who bought that stupid idea of "american dream". go figure - "The american dream" turned out to be a nightmare built on greed blood and spoils of war or well, the bretton-woods pact yeah? When the "Allies" held their hegemony up high and removed the gold as being the "standard commodity" that backs up currency, the so called "peace" was never truly peace, Do you remember what Henry Kissinger said? well i don't think he is wrong, neither the Rothschilds nor Rockfellers. everyone knows or at least suspects how and why the events in 1917-1919 unfolded.


eventually this would have come to that. "the powers who may be" are too fucking greedy. And no im not dropping the hammer on americans, its their tax money being sent to kill people abroad. I'm not blaming the ukrainians (some thought they would be better off with the west, others really felt either bothered or didn't stand out until it got personal, half of then were russian speakers and started being treated as second class citizens. The ones who were "neutral" started being considered "traitors" its the classic "divide and conquer" By all means i dare saying no one except the "Defense Industry" and nato wanted this conflict. they got what they wanted. expanded north and now have a front line almost about the same as in WWII. The treaty's countries are at odds now that "fundind has stopped" this "stretch and unbalance" rand corporation plan rolled on for almost 10 years until it reached the inevitable. russians seem to be at war for a long time (so, there's almost so many different ethnicities in that region.. and how many do we have here? still we fight amongst ourselves over... well, over what?


It's not the "americans fault". you guys aren't calling the shots as in a "role model democracy" and neither are any of us (not even the lurking feds) For a quarter of second i thought "the worry about illegals crossing the border" was sarcasm.. ask any "third world dishwasher, waiter(ress) cashier, ask any of them about the "monroe doctrine" what was that? mexico was becoming "too belligerant and had to be dealt with"

then what's considered the "softbelly/backyard" also had to be dealt with(the filthy third world which has valuable resources) not for me not for you nor any of us (except someone got really bored of flying 1st class and now wanna get on the bus like us third worlders, from who-knows how many different nationalities are, since "colonization of the western "indias company" was a joint effort from the vatican,(state within a state) the british and the french (yet some believe the american revolution was the only revolution "blessed by god" and not the debt inherited by every american who is born (yeah, call the goverment, spell your social security card number, Corporate States Of America (1871 act) "own" you, how can you call that "freedom"? .... Not only that but every other "threat to freedom" had to be "kept in check". regime change, false-flags, sanctions.


Do you know what a "central bank is?" or the "Fed" ? (ahh the federal reserve?) sure, appart that is not federal and its not a "reserve". Check on them, who have recently updated their site , it said "it doesn't belong to anyone, rather than a board of directors in 12 different states. (which states? lets find it out? but i assumed most of us should have known that by now. yeah?


Nobody asked to be born, and absolutely 100% certainty nobody wants to "an asset" this is not a "partisan rant". Haven't we empirically learnt the origins of democracy? oh sure the spartans were born and bred for military life, so why had athens thrived with is "democracy"?
humanity is an anomalous parasite species. when there's no one to prey upon, "we" prey on ourselves (and try to look classy while at it)

"what if we gather up and start a revolution!?" whoooooaa what an amazing illuminated idea. who's going to back up? and for what? cash doesn't grow on trees but debt materializes out of "thin air" =O


and for that very same reason since the industrial revolution the printing press, the "commonwealth" life as become so meaningless and boring there's people thinking "that lived enough and want no more" - why bother with "worldly affairs then?" let me guess: non-govermental organization? non-profit? philanthropy ? We re sick sad depressed of being stuck in this Malthusian dystopic slavery,

"no courage to openly protest against putin?" protest against? for? - question is : What for? this ain't a place where people vent off about how life is cruel behind a cellphone screen? (when others have to climb atop buildings when the shelling stops so they can get rainwater and maybe cellphone signal before crawling back to their basements and stick adhesive tape on every glass panel or window. it can't be fair to point a finger at someone without realizing at the same time you're "pointing 4 more against you"


I don't believe the incredible amount of "virtue-signaling" and hypocrisy.. Ok i do. "Every coin has 2 sides" - akin to "each side has its version" This matter surely requires some basic common-sense and that "putting yourself on someone's else shoes" (unless they throw at you hehe) , no it ain't funny. People were living peaceful, well, relatively. no one appart from extremists remembered the echoes of neo-colonialism cold-war. Guess what? it never really ended, it just turned hot. VERY

I feel bad for people who just wanted to carry on with their simple lives and were happy about it. my ridiculous existance pales compared to the misery inflicted on the lives of others, world-wide. I've talked with some kids here. from places better known for their fates than their geographical (or former geographical location) This world is fucked up "pardon my french". Its AMAZING how they at least try to cope without "blaming this and that" ... Their traumas are not "breakups", are bombs. and yeah, i admit that most times *when it doesnt come to losing limbs, i wished i were in their places instead. so i could have a taste of how miserable this life can be, The guilt of feeling depressed unwilling to keep on, with "nothing" to life for... It might appear that now i'm the one "virtue signaling" So let me be the first to call myself a hypocrite

althought i quoted someone, don't take it personal, while ignorance might be blissfull.. it was extremely dumb of me, typing these bunch of lines i doubt anyone will read, nevertheless . IF WE CAN'T enjoy life. Let others enjoy it . before judging or rushing to conclusions.. lets try to figure it out , cross-reference sources, personal accounts, reports, Brainwashing and propaganda exist to lead empty hearts and minds. For us who aren't there. why not grab a book or go to the internet archives do some research. Things are being edited, pulled out. distorted. Its sad because NO ONE mentioned the genocide ukrainians are going through and still "talking about refugees" (and no one would give a damn if it were the contrary)

In a mass grave, there aren't many differences regarding the aesthetics of death. so lets drop it down . "Evil West Evil East" none of them care about our opinions. they are what they are, be it pro-nazi, anti-nazi ethnic cleasing, philanthropy, biolabs, terrorism, "moderate rebels" freedom fighters whatever. The sad thing is that a nuclear exchange wouldn't wipe us all at once.. But EMP would take humanity back to the medieval ages... Then i doubt we would be talking about this (no internet yeah =\) collapse of everything then we'd be on our knees towards a "strong enough country which could maintain order , thing is, there has to be chaos to reach "order" Everything that's taking place had been previously planned of course plans never go the way "they should" (such as life) pointless of us discussing this. a lot of people had lost someone or at least know someone who lost someone because of this pointless conflict (it was never meant to happen, "just" WWII echoes and "chants of revolution, as always"


How stupid OF ME who typed 1777 characters. thankfully its going to be all over soon.
nah why bother getting all worked up? My apologies lets drink. for those who can't. but would love to.