Thoughts on eugenics?

[sserafim]

"man cannot remake himself without suffering for he is both the marble and the sculptor." Alexis Carrel eugenicist. Man refers to mankind

What does this quote mean? What kind of suffering?

 

[Homo erectus]

Maybe chicken lives are even worse than humans. They have wings but can't fly. People say they have been like that for many thousand years. That's really bad. If genetic engineering had always existed, maybe they were only created recently. And the powerful masters would change their taste and diet soon and free them.

 

[Blank_Slate]

This is really a question of reproductive rights and is pretty nuanced.

I believe that we should give people the tools to make informed decisions about their own reproduction.
If we have the ability to safely prevent people from being created having seriously debilitating or painful disabilities, then I believe parents should be allowed to utilize that.

There is also the anti-natalist angle to this which I have time for but practically speaking is more philosophical than real world political. The take away I believe is that that parents should deeply consider the implications of bringing life into the world, and shouldn't simply be taught to dismiss the idea that they are morally complicit in both the joy and the suffering of the beings who they create. At the same time I don't agree that the human desire to have children is innately "selfish" in a bad way, the human experience is a rare treasure, and for millions of human beings even (or especially) a mundane life can't be quantified for the brief puzzling contradictory and gratifying interruption it introduces into the wealth of abyss that makes up the majority of reality.

I think there is a minor conundrum in the fact that is it quite possible for people to find personal enrichment in living with serious disabilities - but I say it's minor because the society and wealth that makes it possible for disability to be celebrated is so fleeting and so scarce that it's almost a mockery of the vast majority of poor souls in history who had no such luck. So while I admire and applaud those who live their best lives under any circumstances, I don't think we can seriously entertain the idea that anyone would choose before hand to live with a serious disability or disease if they were given a choice to instead live a life with greater ability and health.

 

[Ambivalent1]

What does this quote mean? What kind of suffering?

Suffering the loss of countless people for the greater good which would mean man's continued survival with people who are only a net positive.

 

[Blurry_Buildings]

The issue too is that many of the minds that contributed the most to humanity's development were suspected of being mentally ill and would probably be well within the "undesirable" group. If we lost people like Isaac Newton (who gave lectures to empty classrooms when no one showed up) and Albert Einstein (who couldnt tie his shoes at 16), we would lose incredible amounts of progress (that impoves the lives of everyone today).

As much as I wish to prevent future suffering from mental illness, I wouldn't want to say that a mentally ill person could not find just as much or more happiness in their lives either. No one but the individual in question can be the judge of that, and I'm sure most people would rather love their child unconditionally, not only if they get to choose the child's brain structure and eye color.

Either way, people are already moving towards eugenics by choosing what embryos they use. Soon it may be hard to regulate genome editing if it starts becoming common place somewhere (or anywhere) in the world. No one wants a mentally ill child if they have the option between that and a normal one and the slope may be slippery.

I stumbled upon this again but realized this wasn't just referring to terminating pregnancies because of detected mental illness, which happens often today (although it isn't called or seen as eugenics).

Some people terminate pregnancies because they are not ready to provide a good life for any child, but plenty of others terminate because they don't want to deal with deformaties or mental illness if they don't have to. Considering the difficulties that come with mental illness, especially the kinds that can be detected in the womb, and the lack of societal support, it may be the more compassionate approach. It's still hard for me to blame anyone for thinking that way at least.

To me though, Eugenics is evil, regardless of its application.

In a perfect world people would not choose to terminate a pregnancy based solely on their child's predicted disorders, people would be understanding and supportive of those who are less abled, and the idea of eugenics based on ethnicity would not exist or be allowed exist anywhere. I think most people in this forum have the common decency to understand that last point and so the conversation is for the most part shifting to whether or not they support weeding out the disabled (and probably by extension themselves). Of course, Hitler also began with the disabled...

 

[lemonbunny]

i dont understand the suicidality -> eugenics pipeline. don't you want to choose whether to die or not? isn't that the whole point? eugenics is the opposite of that. it has to do with selective breeding a POPULATION, not the same thing as two parents choosing to abort a child for personal reasons (which i wish my parents did). supporting reproductive rights does not mean you are a eugenicist ffs.

 

[dödsängel]

Everyone pro-eugenics here needs to realize that they are a a half-witted earwax eater,

Even IF it did filter out, quote, "Bad genes" you fail to realize mutations will happen either way, plus, if it were ever implemented, there would be little stopping it from becoming violently racist and homophobic etc

There are a lot of arguments against eugenics but this doesn't make sense
Yes mutations will cause people to still have genetic diseases etc, but you can't completely eliminate anything. Reducing it or eliminating certain conditions should be the goal, and there can and have been cases where eugenics/eugenics adjacent ideas has accomplished this.
Even these mutations, if detected, can be aborted in the womb and the kids won't go through life with such a disease

 

[disabledlife]

I can understand that eugenics is a danger, which can be misused. But it is the same for weapons of war, law enforcement, surveillance, secret services, censorship (with all the excuses against fake news, terrorism, state of emergency... ), medicines, banks, money creation, trading (which can ruin people, see the crisis in 2008), etc. This is not the principle that must be banned, but its use must be controlled, all forms of capitalism, privatization, politicization must be prohibited, and it must be subject to democracy and independent surveillance.

To all people who are against eugenics, who advocate diversity, inclusion, etc. Someone will have to explain to me why disabled people, short people, ugly people, autistic people, etc., are rejected, humiliated, harassed, do not find love, have no friends, are condemned to remain alone, poor , banned from certain professions, banned from certain studies, are condemned to be placed under guardianship, curatorship, medication, psychotropic drugs, forcibly interned, etc., often for the rest of their lives! Poorly born people are condemned to remain poor, alone, abused, have low-level jobs, miserable incomes, etc.

It is said that procreation is a universal right (it is the only thing without a license, unlike driving a car, constructing or modifying a building, being a doctor, firefighter, soldier, banker, piloting a drone, and even using a chainsaw !), but in reality, people of low birth cannot start a family, they are rejected by their partners (if they find one), cheated on, abused, humiliated, etc! Now, if everyone were well born, all equal (as equal as possible in any case), everyone would have the same chances of succeeding in life, being surrounded by friends, flourishing, having a good income, not suffer, start a family, with well-born children in turn, etc.

I am autistic, seriously affected by an incurable genetic disease, I am alone, rejected, I created lots of topics on this forum for that.

You know, in certain countries, like Canada or Australia, there are laws on excessive demand, which bans from territory all people who are too sick, too disabled, etc., because they would cost society too much! What arguments can anti-eugenicists use against these laws?

I do wish there could be a cure for autism, but I guess what I want more is choice. Believe it or not, there are people who do actually like having autism. I don't relate to those people, but I wouldn't want whatever enjoyment they get out of it to be taken away from them.

There should be options. People who like having autism should be allowed to keep having it, and people who hate having autism should have science help them be neurotypical.

I don't think it's possible to help an autistic person become neurotypical, it's like growing teeth in a person whose teeth have been removed, making an adult over 25 years old grow naturally ( the bones are formed, even worse if the person is a dwarf), cure generalized cancer, regrow baldness hair, cure color blindness, etc. It's like resurrecting the dead.

However, there is more and more research on autism, but for adaptation purposes, in an ableist, intolerant, closed, individualist, capitalist world...
See these thead for autism sad life example:

Asperger's autism, sentenced to live in prison, the Darius McCollum case. Or better not to be born!

Asperger's autism, sentenced to live in prison, the Darius McCollum case. Or better not to be born! Darius McCollum is a person with Asperger's autism, from New York who is obsessively passionate about subways, trains, transportation, that he absolutely wanted to drive them, maintain them...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Another thread for eugenics:

Eugenics isn't that bad of an idea.

Okay, so hear me out. Eugenics is often seen as this awful thing used to wipe out cultures and peoples, as this is how it has been used in the past. The holocaust is an extremely well-known example, for good reason as it was probably one of the very worst things humanity has ever done. Due to...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[Valso]

I've seen a trend here of people voicing their support for eugenics. Just wondering what the general consensus is.

If I could engineer better and healthy bodies for myself and the people that I care about and clone a certain woman, damn right I would without hesitation! No nicotine addiction, no diabetis, no asthma and sexual endurance beyond reason... Hell, yeah!

 

[disabledlife]

Thank you for all your detailed responses, regardless of your opinions, for or against, I really appreciate the uncensored and thoughtful atmosphere of this forum and its members in general. You see, I tried to find alternatives to eugenics (justice for example, but apparently it is not without risks), in my own ideas. No one is perfect, and the world is not safe.

It doesn't matter the way, justice or not, eugenics or not. A person already born is already born, no one has gone back in time, I don't believe it will ever happen in the future. That's the reality. It is even the principle of the general enthropy of the Universe (science, everything begins in order and ends in disorder, irreversibly), time brings the principle of irreversibility, by the simple fact that it is impossible to travel against the flow in time, that is to say towards the past, only possible towards the future (gravity, space-time, speed...).

All I want is for no one to suffer, to feel betrayed, to be hated, to be rejected, to find themselves without friends, to find themselves without prospects for the future, to find themselves condemned to work in jobs they don't want (because their illnesses prevent them from achieving their dream), etc.

All I want is for no one to find themselves betrayed by their own parents, doctors, governments (who created it consciously, and voluntarily, for their own interests, and never that of the child).

Society will never tolerate difference, either you fit into the mold of norms, the social mold, the mold of beauty... or die! Above all, don't die, otherwise you are a coward (no right to CTB for example). How many times have I heard this? For me, for disabled people, for mentally ill people, for healthy people who have never known good parents...

So yes, there are great names in the history of humanity who, precisely through their differences (considered mental illnesses, such as autism, Asperger's), have contributed to the evolution of humanity. Einstein, Beetoven... Moreover, at the end of the film GATTACA, there is a short written story which shows famous people, yet considered invalids according to GATTACA (seen in some dystopia).

All I want is for no one to have to regret their births and find themselves forced to live a life that they are not alone, alone, rejected... and to end up in CTB on their own if the person has the courage (to fight the "IF" survival instinct), alone in a corner...

I would like anyone to come up with their own ideas, eugenics or not, justice or not, means that they consider safe, if they can be technically feasible.

I can also understand that no country is safe, are governed by corrupt governments, lobbyists, dictatorships, that there are malicious multinationals, that society has become what the movie "Idiocracy" (a dystopia), had feared and came true. I was told that if I didn't have children, I would be a selfish asshole, who would not contribute to society, and that I would not pass on my high IQ autistic Asperger genes. But, for my part, I did not want to make my innocent children suffer from the same diseases as me, which are terrible and incurable (another genetic disease, called Ehlers-Danlos).

Offer me your ideal dreams if you want.

As for governments, I dream of a country, even the whole world, managed by a direct democracy, the people in power, that multinationals are banned, especially tech giants, etc! Otherwise, indeed, eugenics, for example, is not recommended.

The tech giants (Meta, Microsoft, Google, OpenAI...) and their formidable artificial intelligence (Midjourney, Sora, ChatGPT...), an unimaginable danger, which is coming true, deepfakes, manipulation, humiliation, harassment, targeting politics, coups d'état, including in the medical field, much worse than eugenics, and capable of eugenics in a malicious way, Matrix, 1984, Terminator, coming soon.

 

[disabledlife]

For members who choose "NO" in this Ulrich thread pool (and my another alternative "possible sue parents, doctors, country, etc, in justice" thread pool), there are my another thread and question.

What would you suggest for people of low birth who demand justice? Without eugenics and justice and without CTB or euthanasia.

What would you suggest for people of low birth who demand justice? I've seen threads debating eugenics, including a thread with a poll, and "no" wins. For my part, I created another thread, on an alternative to eugenics, that is to say the possibility of suing parents, doctors, the country...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[locked*n*loaded]

The way to have a level playing field is to use eugenics to eradicate diseases so that everyone can have an equal chance to succeed in life, without being held back by disabilities

Except all diseases are not genetic. Many are born from environmental reasons, so even if eugenics happened to produce a new "clean" populace, environmental factors would again, eventually, inject disease into this new, clean population.

 

[thenamingofcats]

 

[disabledlife]

I've a DVD of GATTACA Movie. But it's eugenics in capitalist world!
This film denounces eugenics in a capitalist world, in any case, in the United States (without explicitly denouncing the capitalist world, but the film's script denounces it all the same). Capitalist eugenics allows certain parents to allow their children to benefit from eugenics, while other parents decide to let nature do its thing, or even create children with disabilities, voluntarily!

This is what caused children to find themselves "invalidated", excluded, condemned to do small, poorly paid jobs, remain inferior, and even small in size (this film praises heightism, discrimination by stature, which already exists in the United States, where you have to be 5'9" minimum to be president of this country), while there are privileged people, namely the majority of humans, in the film, who have access to everything , are tall, never sick, are not obliged to do great studies, great training, etc., to practice great professions Well, it's exaggerated in this film, because, even if there is eugenics. , it will still take training, sport, education, instruction, and good parents throughout the children's childhood until their adult life!

As it is capitalism, in this current world, there are already, in this world, selfish parents, part of sects, isolated, drug addicts, bandits, etc., but who still have children, mistreat them, do not do not give them an education, a fulfilling life, prohibit them from seeking treatment, being vaccinated, transfusing them, isolating them, etc. And nothing prohibits them from having children and nothing allows these children to be able to sue their parents, doctors, their countries, etc., for having allowed their parents to give birth to them, these children who could have had a better life if they had been born to other, "normal" parents!

This film was shot in the Marin County Civic Center, in San Francisco, where THX 1138 was also filmed. This center has an atypical, retro-futuristic architecture, the future imagined in the 50s to 70s.

The person who imagined GATTACA was also at the origin of the film and the book "The Truman Show", which scared a lot of people, causing Truman syndrome in those affected.

Indeed, this other film is frightening, for a film which denounced a reality television channel which allegedly bought a baby from an unwanted pregnancy (selfish parents), a certain "Truman Burbank" (played by Jim Carrey, in thirties, towards the end of the 90s, when this film was shot) to make him his imprisoned puppet until he escapes. Truman could have sued his biological parents, the television set, and the United States (country of this film), for having given birth to him, been bought (against payment for these selfish parents) by a television set, and by the law that allowed all of this, in disregard of Truman's life!

Despite everything, even with the highest damages in the world, all the privileges, the possibility of changing one's identity, of disappearing, I think that Truman will not have compensation commensurate with his infinitely great damage, that he will have suffered throughout his life as a prisoner - studio puppet!

In any case, whatever opinions we may make of these two films (GATTACA and The Truman Show), they denounce selfish parents! But what can we do about selfish parents? Is death (CTB, euthanasia, etc.) the only solution for all poorly born children? What can we do for children who want justice but want to live?

I had already addressed this subject in this other thread, with a poll.

Should we be allowed to sue our parents, doctors, the State, the country, etc. for being poorly born? or to simply be born? Wrongful birth and life.

There have recently been threads (from me, and other members of this forum), which debated eugenics, with arguments for and against, and especially the danger, despite the fact that it would have allowed everyone to be born well, to have the same chance of having a successful life, without...

sanctioned-suicide.net

I don't understand why the "no" vote wins for this judicial solution, without eugenics, therefore alternative to eugenics. Only one person responded to my other thread. Nobody finds solutions.

What would you suggest for people of low birth who demand justice? Without eugenics and justice and without CTB or euthanasia.

What would you suggest for people of low birth who demand justice? I've seen threads debating eugenics, including a thread with a poll, and "no" wins. For my part, I created another thread, on an alternative to eugenics, that is to say the possibility of suing parents, doctors, the country...

sanctioned-suicide.net