Venting we are the ones paying the price for someone else’s decision to bring us here.

[Darkover]

We are paying the price for someone else's decision to procreate because birth is not a choice we made—we were brought into existence by our parents, who acted on their own desires, beliefs, or societal expectations. This decision imposes all the burdens of life on us, including suffering, survival struggles, and eventual death, without our consent.

Life is like being signed up for a subscription service without our consent, except the cost isn't just money—it's constant effort, suffering, and eventual death.

Unlike a normal subscription, there's no easy way to opt out. Even contemplating "cancellation" (suicide) is heavily stigmatized, often illegal, and comes with painful consequences for those who attempt it. Society pressures you to keep going, no matter how unbearable it gets.

No one asks to be born. Procreation is an act where one person (or two parents) makes a choice that fundamentally impacts another being's entire existence. The unborn have no say in whether they want to take on the risks and suffering that life inevitably brings.

The "game" of life was already set up with its rules long before we arrived, and we had no say in whether we wanted to play. We're just thrown into it, expected to follow the rules, and punished if we don't.

We didn't get to review the rules before being born. We weren't given an option to opt in or out—we were just placed here and told to play along.

The systems of money, government, morality, and social expectations were all decided by people who lived long before us. We didn't vote on them, yet we're forced to obey them. If we resist, we face consequences like poverty, exclusion, or even imprisonment.

Not everyone is born into the same circumstances. Some people inherit wealth, power, or good genetics, while others start life in poverty, sickness, or abusive environments. The game isn't fair, but we're expected to play as if it is.

If you refuse to work, you starve.
If you reject social norms, you're ostracized.
If you refuse to participate in life, you're seen as broken or mentally ill.

No matter how well or badly you play, the result is always death. All effort, struggle, and achievements are erased in the end.

We didn't agree to any of this. We were just born into a system we had no control over, forced to navigate it as best we can until the game inevitably ends.

 

[H.O.Xan]

Not everyone has a terrible life like ours. Bless them and let them be. But I agree overall

 

[Darkover]

Not everyone has a terrible life like ours. Bless them and let them be. But I agree overall

that's the justification they use for bringing more life into the world based on the idea that "not everyone has terrible lifes"

each year more than 100,000 children die of cancer worldwide

You can take it for example.There is a group of pigs that are waiting for slaughter but they are not aware of that harsh fact,instead they enjoy eating,being wash by water,sleeping,intercourse ,they even fight against each other for food,...But there is one of them know the final fate,this pig is sad,depress,...But the final whether you are optimistic or pessimistic,all the pig have to be slaughtered.Then optimistic or delusion pig is better because they have a happy time before death,whereas the pig which realize the truth ,this pig are sad but still can't not escape the harsh fate...

 

[Blue Dream]

How is a set of parents supposed to know whether or not a theoretical offspring will experience suicide inducing suffering if conceived?

Also ignoring the wide implications of living, and taking into consideration the here and now second by second, is it a positive, negative or neutral experience?

 

[Darkover]

How is a set of parents supposed to know whether or not a theoretical offspring will experience suicide inducing suffering if conceived?

50 percent of the world population live in poverty,
16 percent of the world's population has a mental health illness
around 10% of the world population goes hungry meaning approximately one in ten people do not have enough food to eat
Globally, about 16% of the population, or 1.3 billion people, experience significant disability

Also ignoring the wide implications of living, and taking into consideration the here and now second by second, is it a positive, negative or neutral experience?

for me it's negative i am a constant state of discomfort and have been for nearly nine years

 

[before20]

There are so many people on this planet, you can't even argue it's for the joy of raising kids. Plenty of children already exist and need good lives; to create one is pure selfishness.

 

[Ashes of a Dreamer]

You went to the point, that's the reason I think suicide is an act of rebellion against the world/the people who brought us here.

We're telling them that we don't want the life they gave us, and deciding to end it on our own terms (something society still can't accept). There is an expectation, especially nowadays, that you're raised to be happy and change this world for better; if you don't, the fault is yours, and are condemned to live a hell just to maintain things moving.

Democracy gives the illusion that everyone has equal value, but the truth is some still have much more opportunities than others, hiding something that past government regimes didn't: where you born defines a lot of your future.

Therefore, suicide is a way to stop paying the count someone else put in our names.

 

[Forever Sleep]

How is a set of parents supposed to know whether or not a theoretical offspring will experience suicide inducing suffering if conceived?

Also ignoring the wide implications of living, and taking into consideration the here and now second by second, is it a positive, negative or neutral experience?

They don't know. That's part of the problem though. They're taking a gamble with someone else's life. They may be paying for that gamble initially but they'll expect the child to one day pay to play- as it were. They may even look on their children as a sort of insurance policy. That they'll help them out in old age.

I imagine most people on this forum are in at least a background level of discomfort second to second. They probably wouldn't be considering suicide if the good outweighed the bad or, even if things were fairly neutral. Suicide is a scary, likely painful thing to endure. I doubt many people do it unless they have decided that it's worth the risk- in order to free themselves from life.

As to whether the majority of people feel like us- maybe not. So- maybe it's a bet with better odds that a child may end up ok. Quite a risky bet to take though- I believe.

What do they lose if they aren't born though? Kind of depends on your beliefs I guess but, it's possible they lose nothing at all. They don't exist in order to feel frustrated, lonely, upset that their parents didn't give them the chance of life. If they are born though, it could go a whole multitude of ways. The parents could give the child every good chance in life and they may still end up in a horrible situation. It's just life. It comes with a whole variety of bad possibilities as well as good ones.

The slightly frustrating part is- I imagine very few parents would be willing to accept their offspring's wish to suicide. They may even feel angry that we're prepared to inflict that grief on them- calling it selfish. Yet, they are presumably absolutely fine with the idea that we'll have to witness their death, the death of our grandparents, plus any other relatives, friends, pets along the way. Ending in our own deaths at the end. I don't imagine that's at the forefront of their minds when creating life but- why not?

They do expect us to consider all the people we may hurt in reaction to our suicides but, did they actually consider the hurt we would very likely go through in life?

I do actually really love my parents. I do intend to wait till my Dad goes till I feel able to (my Mum's already dead.) But, I do agree with @Darkover. I wish my parents had just got a cat or something and spared me all of this!

 

[futurecorpse]

I can understand this perspective. My birth mother was 19 when she got pregnant with me, 20 when she had me. My "sperm donor" was much older than her and already had a family of his own. You can piece the rest together.
I resent her. She clearly wasn't thinking. She lost her own dad as a child, had an abusive stepfather, and fell for an older man's words. While I can relate to wanting to be loved and desperate for a man's affection, an innocent life was brought into this world and given away to a family that didn't give the child a better life. Abortion was and still is illegal in my native country. I agree that a child potentially suffering isn't something parents think about before having kids. At the same time, why would they? It's so depressing. But I firmly believe that a child's wellbeing in the short run and long run needs to be taken into consideration BEFORE they are conceived. When I told my birth mother that I've struggled and suffered all my life, she told me she didn't think about that possibility. Me ctb would be a way of me saying my last "Fuck you" to her. I don't talk to her anymore.

*I'm not saying all children are going to have a bad life.

 

[charcoalcat]

 

[dust-in-the-wind]

I consciously chose not to have children
The ultimate truth is "Life is Suffering".
Why on earth would I want to willfully bring another being into that. I'm a 55f with zero regrets

 

[MatrixPrisoner]

How is a set of parents supposed to know whether or not a theoretical offspring will experience suicide inducing suffering if conceived?

Also ignoring the wide implications of living, and taking into consideration the here and now second by second, is it a positive, negative or neutral experience?

They wouldn't know. But they could easy take a harsh look at the reality of the odds. A human has a much higher chance of being forced to live a mediocre to horrible life than a quality one.

 

[needthebus]

i

We are paying the price for someone else's decision to procreate because birth is not a choice we made—we were brought into existence by our parents, who acted on their own desires, beliefs, or societal expectations. This decision imposes all the burdens of life on us, including suffering, survival struggles, and eventual death, without our consent.

Life is like being signed up for a subscription service without our consent, except the cost isn't just money—it's constant effort, suffering, and eventual death.

Unlike a normal subscription, there's no easy way to opt out. Even contemplating "cancellation" (suicide) is heavily stigmatized, often illegal, and comes with painful consequences for those who attempt it. Society pressures you to keep going, no matter how unbearable it gets.

No one asks to be born. Procreation is an act where one person (or two parents) makes a choice that fundamentally impacts another being's entire existence. The unborn have no say in whether they want to take on the risks and suffering that life inevitably brings.

The "game" of life was already set up with its rules long before we arrived, and we had no say in whether we wanted to play. We're just thrown into it, expected to follow the rules, and punished if we don't.

We didn't get to review the rules before being born. We weren't given an option to opt in or out—we were just placed here and told to play along.

The systems of money, government, morality, and social expectations were all decided by people who lived long before us. We didn't vote on them, yet we're forced to obey them. If we resist, we face consequences like poverty, exclusion, or even imprisonment.

Not everyone is born into the same circumstances. Some people inherit wealth, power, or good genetics, while others start life in poverty, sickness, or abusive environments. The game isn't fair, but we're expected to play as if it is.

If you refuse to work, you starve.
If you reject social norms, you're ostracized.
If you refuse to participate in life, you're seen as broken or mentally ill.

No matter how well or badly you play, the result is always death. All effort, struggle, and achievements are erased in the end.

We didn't agree to any of this. We were just born into a system we had no control over, forced to navigate it as best we can until the game inevitably ends.

i don't know if the people who created us "chose" this

the instinct to procreate for some people is a lot like the instinct to drink water or the desire to sleep or breathe. it just happens.

also, humans choosing things is an antiquated notion since all actions occur based on physical interactions in the brain that adhere to the properties of chemistry and physics within the biological realm of the brain. there is no magic or need to believe that people can do different options, like option 1 or option 2 or option 3. people can consider different options, but based on the chemistry and physics it was always going to be option 1, despite any thinking about different possibilities.

 

[before20]

If you really feel this way, murder your parents if they are alive and then kill yourself.

Holy 0-100, Batman.

 

[_D_]

Holy 0-100, Batman.

It's not really 0 to 100 and you don't have to talk like that we're not on Reddit. If this dude really stands by the philosophy he posts constantly it is a legitimate response.

 

[sanction]

How is a set of parents supposed to know whether or not a theoretical offspring will experience suicide inducing suffering if conceived?

Also ignoring the wide implications of living, and taking into consideration the here and now second by second, is it a positive, negative or neutral experience?

That does not justify it at all, although I get your point

It's like if a drunk driver accidentally crashes into someone and kills them, then saying how did you expect a drunk driver to know this would be the outcome

Or If a mentally ill person grabs a gun and goes on a shooting spree at a school, but say how did you expect a mentally ill person to make wise choices

Sometimes... it is what it is, whether if it was intentional or not

If I am super depressed, therefore can't push myself to work and make enough money, therefore can't pay bills and rent on time, I will still be considered at fault, therefore evicted and my services get cut

This is just the reality we live in

 

[Blue Dream]

There are so many people on this planet, you can't even argue it's for the joy of raising kids. Plenty of children already exist and need good lives; to create one is pure selfishness.

Wait so, people who have the intention and means to care for a kid are selfish for creating one because others opted to have kids they didn't intend to raise or could not abort? How is that fair?

It's like if a drunk driver accidentally crashes into someone and kills them, then saying how did you expect a drunk driver to know this would be the outcome

Or If a mentally ill person grabs a gun and goes on a shooting spree at a school, but say how did you expect a mentally ill person to make wise choices

Sometimes... it is what it is, whether if it was intentional or no

This suggests a person looking to have a child, who is unable to read the not-yet-existent mind of a not-yet-existent person has the exact same cognitive functionality as someone who is intoxicated or as someone who is mentally ill to the point of being a danger to himself and others.

These are false equivalencies.

 

[before20]

Wait so, people who have the intention and means to care for a kid are selfish for creating one because others opted to have kids they didn't intend to raise or could not abort? How is that fair?

Well, yes? If you want to start a family, making a new child is completely unnecessary to do so. Therefore, the main reason one would choose conceiving their own child over adopting an already existing one is because they want the child to be theirs. Which is a motivation rooted in self-interest; aka it is selfish. Whether that is an acceptable level of selfishness, I'll leave for you to decide, but IMO you can't argue there isn't an inherent selfish quality to reproducing.

That being said, these are mostly just my personal feelings. I even have one small caveat—peoples whose populations have lowered significantly due to genocide I have great sympathy for.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

How is a set of parents supposed to know whether or not a theoretical offspring will experience suicide inducing suffering if conceived?

That's the thing, you can't guarantee that your offspring will live a happy life and will be thankful for being alive and if you cannot guarantee this then why bother procreating? This is part of what makes deciding to have children so selfish and cruel. You are forcing existence onto someone and you can't even say for sure if they'll even enjoy it. This also goes into how children and infants are completely dehumanized, with most parents and to-be parents viewing them more like cute little objects and not as human beings. They don't bother to reflect deeply on how what they are doing could end with their offspring suffering and leading a miserable life, instead prioritizing their own feelings. Hence why whenever you bring up how selfish it is to have kids you'll have dumbasses respond with weak arguments like, "What about them missing out on experiencing joy?" As though somehow the non-existent entity that is the potential child-to-be is even able to give a shit about that kind of stuff. By not having kids you are basically ensuring that there will be no suffering because you can't suffer if you don't even exist. If you can't guarantee your potential child will have a great and happy life then why take that chance?

 

[Blue Dream]

Well, yes? If you want to start a family, making a new child is completely unnecessary to do so. Therefore, the main reason one would choose conceiving their own child over adopting an already existing one is because they want the child to be theirs. Which is a motivation rooted in self-interest; aka it is selfish. Whether that is an acceptable level of selfishness, I'll leave for you to decide, but IMO you can't argue there isn't an inherent selfish quality to reproducing.

That being said, these are mostly just my personal feelings. I even have one small caveat—peoples whose populations have lowered significantly due to genocide I have great sympathy for.

So having a kid you aren't going to raise isn't the issue, it's the breeders that won't adopt that are selfish...

That's the thing, you can't guarantee that your offspring will live a happy life and will be thankful for being alive and if you cannot guarantee this then why bother procreating? This is part of what makes deciding to have children so selfish and cruel. You are forcing existence onto someone and you can't even say for sure if they'll even enjoy it. This also goes into how children and infants are completely dehumanized, with most parents and to-be parents viewing them more like cute little objects and not as human beings. They don't bother to reflect deeply on how what they are doing could end with their offspring suffering and leading a miserable life, instead prioritizing their own feelings. Hence why whenever you bring up how selfish it is to have kids you'll have dumbasses respond with weak arguments like, "What about them missing out on experiencing joy?" As though somehow the non-existent entity that is the potential child-to-be is even able to give a shit about that kind of stuff. By not having kids you are basically ensuring that there will be no suffering because you can't suffer if you don't even exist. If you can't guarantee your potential child will have a great and happy life then why take that chance?

What is even a "great and happy life"? Is there a standardized benchmark?

 

[before20]

So having a kid you aren't going to raise isn't the issue, it's the breeders that won't adopt that are selfish...

Who said it wasn't an issue?

 

[L'absent]

You've only scratched the surface of the deception, but in reality, it's even worse. Not only were we thrown into this game without our consent, but the trap is so perfect that even rebellion is an illusion. Even those who realize the scam keep playing, convinced they can find an escape, a meaning, a reason. But there is no way out. The universe is a closed system, a vicious cycle where suffering is the very fuel of life."
"You say suicide is stigmatized? Of course, but it's even worse than that: even if it were socially accepted, it would still be a victory for the system. Why? Because even death is an illusion—it's just the end of the game for the individual, but the game itself continues, regenerating, feeding on new births, new illusions, new slaves to take our place. The system doesn't need us individually; it just needs to keep replicating. It's a mechanism that never stops."
"And shall we talk about the farce of freedom? Life isn't just a forced subscription without consent; it's also a contract with hidden clauses: the debt doesn't end with death, because we leave behind other people trapped in it, other obligations, other chains. If someone chooses to end their existence, they will be remembered, judged, and their act will be turned into a narrative, a moral lesson, a warning for others. Even failure becomes a resource for the system. You can't even self-destruct without contributing, in some way, to the mechanism."
"And then comes the final mockery: the fact that realizing all of this changes nothing. Understanding that you are in a cage doesn't open the door; it just makes you bang harder against the bars. Every attempt to escape the game has already been accounted for, every rebellious thought is just another variable in the grand scheme. Freedom is only the most refined of deceptions, a placebo given to those who think they are more lucid, while in reality, they are just another puppet struggling against its strings."
"You say no one chooses to be born? Of course. But the real horror is that if we had been given the choice, we probably would have chosen to exist anyway—fooled by hope, deceived by the mirage of a meaning that isn't there. Here's the paradox: even though the system is a sentence, we ourselves are complicit because, deep down, no one truly wants to stare into the abyss of nothingness. The system is not just sustained by imposition, but by self-delusion. The greatest deception is the one we tell ourselves.

 

[wiggy]

Once you're gone, whether you were ever alive doesn't make any difference. There is no cosmic tally on all the suffering that has ever occurred. Don't be so harsh on your parents

 

[Blue Dream]

Who said it wasn't an issue?

That's the implication of what you're saying. Wanting your own kids in lieu of adopting is selfish, after all. People should be selfless because total strangers decided to be selfish.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

What is even a "great and happy life"? Is there a standardized benchmark?

For most people, it would usually mean being in a position where they have access to basic necessities and more, going through minimal suffering, and overall living a life where they are generally happy. While having a "great and happy life" can be subjective to some degree, for most people there is a general pattern that involves having their physical and emotional needs met. Along with that, there doesn't need to be a "standardized benchmark" anyway, since the point is in being able to guarantee your child a great and happy life, as in being able to guarantee that you will be able to meet the specific criteria that they specifically require in order for them have a good life. At the end of the day, my point is that parents cannot actually guarantee that their children will live nice and happy lives. It's impossible. This is what makes deciding to have children an incredibly selfish decision.

 

[JesiBel]

You are right, having children is the most selfish decision in the world. Just to satisfy a simple desire or expectation of society. From one moment to the next you are left alone in this great chaos, and all you have to do is survive as best you can.

And even worse are the people who have children so that when they grow old they can take care of them, a kind of long-term servants.

 

[sanction]

It is complete bullshit. However, I try to hold back a little, as I understand there are parents on this forum. Don't want to be too harsh due to that

But in reality, it is a very wrong thing, no matter how much you try to argue or debate. Of course there will always be exceptions, but we're talking overall in general

It is simply not worth it, and not a wise thing to do at all. In short, we all come here just to die in the end. That already says it all. So why still invite more people to participate in this pointless game???

It is simple common sense

 

[Blue Dream]

For most people, it would usually mean being in a position where they have access to basic necessities and more, going through minimal suffering, and overall living a life where they are generally happy. While having a "great and happy life" can be subjective to some degree, for most people there is a general pattern that involves having their physical and emotional needs met. Along with that, there doesn't need to be a "standardized benchmark" anyway, since the point is in being able to guarantee your child a great and happy life, as in being able to guarantee that you will be able to meet the specific criteria that they specifically require in order for them have a good life. At the end of the day, my point is that parents cannot actually guarantee that their children will live nice and happy lives. It's impossible. This is what makes deciding to have children an incredibly selfish decision.

They also can't guarantee the child Won't be able to enjoy life at all. Some people do honestly enjoy living and are utterly unfazed by a lot of what we find unbearable.

This is why it's an individual choice. Anti natalists and pro lifers both miss this point and make blanket judgements without considering that their own experiences aren't universal.

Also anyone who has actually raised kids one on one can tell you it's anything but selfish.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

They also can't guarantee the child Won't be able to enjoy life at all. Some people do honestly enjoy living and are utterly unfazed by a lot of what we find unbearable.

This is why it's an individual choice. Anti natalists and pro lifers both miss this point and make blanket judgements without considering that their own experiences aren't universal.

Okay, and how does that address the fact that that plenty of people also grow up suffering a lot and wishing that they had never been born? How does that address the fact that you cannot guarantee that your children won't end up in that sort of position? That's the point I'm trying to make. You can't guarantee your child living a life where they are unfazed and happy so why bother taking that risk? It feels like you completely missed the point I was trying to make. Why bother risking your growing up to be miserable when you could just not have a child at all?

 

[divinemistress36]

For most people, it would usually mean being in a position where they have access to basic necessities and more, going through minimal suffering, and overall living a life where they are generally happy. While having a "great and happy life" can be subjective to some degree, for most people there is a general pattern that involves having their physical and emotional needs met. Along with that, there doesn't need to be a "standardized benchmark" anyway, since the point is in being able to guarantee your child a great and happy life, as in being able to guarantee that you will be able to meet the specific criteria that they specifically require in order for them have a good life. At the end of the day, my point is that parents cannot actually guarantee that their children will live nice and happy lives. It's impossible. This is what makes deciding to have children an incredibly selfish decision.

I agree I told my mom this and she said "Well most people are happy and I enjoyed raising you"