Venting we are the ones paying the price for someone else’s decision to bring us here.

[Pluto]

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Also anyone who has actually raised kids one on one can tell you it's anything but selfish.

Of course, they'll tell you it's anything but selfish because they don't want to think of themselves as selfish. At the end of the day, their taking care of their children comes down to it being something they are obligated to do. It's a consequence of their own decisions, not an unselfish act.

 

[Blue Dream]

Of course, they'll tell you it's anything but selfish because they don't want to think of themselves as selfish. At the end of the day, their taking care of their children comes down to it being something they are obligated to do. It's a consequence of their own decisions, not an unselfish act.

Dude anyone can foist the kid off to relatives, give it up for adoption or simply leave it behind at the station after getting gas. I see these scenarios constantly.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[yellowjester]

We were already trapped in samsara before we were born. It's not the fault of our parents.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Dude anyone can foist the kid off to relatives, give it up for adoption or simply leave it behind at the station after getting gas. I see these scenarios constantly.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Again, you are missing the point of what I'm saying. It is impossible to guarantee that your child will live a happy life so why bother having one in the first place? By not having a child you are ensuring that there will be no suffering. That is the point I'm making. You were the one to randomly bring up that raising a child isn't selfish while rambling on about how there is "no guarantee that child won't enjoy life at all", even though I already explicitly addressed this point in my original post

"What about them missing out on experiencing joy?" As though somehow the non-existent entity that is the potential child-to-be is even able to give a shit about that kind of stuff.

That doesn't even address the points that I made. You have been missing the point that I've been making this entire time. Some parents giving away their children doesn't even have anything to do with the points being made here, because it wouldn't change the fact that it's still a selfish decision. If anything, it just makes it even clearer that this is a selfish decision since they decided to have a child while not even being in a position to raise one. You raising your kid or giving them away doesn't change the fact that deciding to have them to begin with is selfish.

 

[brittlemoth]

I think a lot of the pro natalists position can be summed up in the ideas of 'The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas'. This classic text (which I haven't actually read but will still bring up for argument because it is relevant… lol) posits that there is a city of great serenity is splendor. Of course the catch, and there is always a catch, is that there is a child being kept in darkness, filth, horrid disgusting and torturous conditions constantly in order to maintain the splendor and joy the rest of the city maintains. Of course, the real world situation is worse than Omelas, there's a lot more than one child being tortured cruelty while the pro-natalists can keep feeling good about producing offspring. After being made aware of the child in suffering, a select few make the decision to leave the city of splendor. The iconic quote from the text goes as follows:

"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas."

So, if producing more children necessitates even the possibility of creating more suffering for a life that is not consenting to the situation at all to begin with, I must ask, how many children must the city of Omelas torture until it is too much for you?

 

[cme-dme]

I think a lot of the pro natalists position can be summed up in the ideas of 'The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas'. This classic text (which I haven't actually read but will still bring up for argument because it is relevant… lol) posits that there is a city of great serenity is splendor. Of course the catch, and there is always a catch, is that there is a child being kept in darkness, filth, horrid disgusting and torturous conditions constantly in order to maintain the splendor and joy the rest of the city maintains. Of course, the real world situation is worse than Omelas, there's a lot more than one child being tortured cruelty while the pro-natalists can keep feeling good about producing offspring. After being made aware of the child in suffering, a select few make the decision to leave the city of splendor. The iconic quote from the text goes as follows:

"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas."

So, if producing more children necessitates even the possibility of creating more suffering for a life that is not consenting to the situation at all to begin with, I must ask, how many children must the city of Omelas torture until it is too much for you?

I think I remember hearing about this text before. It might have been the video by Solar Sands about anti-natalistm. Really good video.

Edit: It was not from that video, not sure where I heard it from then

 

[brittlemoth]

You are right, having children is the most selfish decision in the world. Just to satisfy a simple desire or expectation of society. From one moment to the next you are left alone in this great chaos, and all you have to do is survive as best you can.

And even worse are the people who have children so that when they grow old they can take care of them, a kind of long-term servants.

Having children so they can take care of you when you are old is so disgusting to me.

When I was younger, my mom used to tell me something along the lines of, "if I get old and can't take care of myself, just throw me in some nursing home and forget about it".

I didn't understand this when I was younger. I thought she was saying it because she was upset. I wanted what was best for my mom, I still do.

Now that I'm older, I appreciate the kindness behind what she was saying. She chose to give birth to me. My life is mine to do what I chose with, I am not now strapped down and forced to be a servant to her own selfishness.

Thank you mom, for treating me with dignity in this context, regardless of how I feel about your decision to have me in the first place.

 

[Darkover]

We are the ones paying the price for someone else's decision to bring us here.
We are paying the price for someone else's decision to procreate because birth is not a choice we made—we were imprisoned in existence by our parents, who acted on their own desires, beliefs, or societal expectations. This decision sentenced us to the hardships of life, the suffering, the struggle for survival, and the inevitable death, without ever asking for our consent.
Life is like being locked in a prison without ever being tried or convicted. The walls close in on you from the moment you're born, and there's no escape, no parole, no way out until your sentence is over. The cost isn't just the confinement—it's the constant effort to stay alive, the pain, the struggle, and the inescapable end.
Unlike a regular prisoner, we don't even have the illusion of choice in the matter. The idea of escape (suicide) is criminalized, condemned, and heavily stigmatized. Attempting to flee is met with judgment, rejection, and the harshest of penalties. Society pressures us to stay locked in, no matter how unbearable the conditions become.
No one asks to be born. Procreation is like a decision made by the warden without our consent, a decision that traps another life into a fate they didn't choose. The unborn have no say in whether they want to endure the risks and suffering that come with life.
The prison of life was built long before we arrived. The walls were erected, the bars set in place, and the rules written, all without our input. We were thrown into the cell, expected to follow the rules, and punished if we resist.
We didn't get to review the terms before we were locked up. We weren't given an option to opt in or out—we were simply incarcerated in existence and told to survive.
The systems of money, government, morality, and social expectations are the prison guards of our existence. These systems were put in place long before our birth, and we were never given a say in their creation. We didn't vote for them, yet we are forced to obey their dictates. If we refuse, we face punishment: poverty, exclusion, or even worse.
Not everyone is imprisoned under the same conditions. Some are born into privileged cells, with wealth, power, or good health, while others are shackled by poverty, illness, or abuse. The prison isn't fair, but we're expected to serve our sentences as if it were.
If you refuse to work, you starve in your cell.
If you reject the rules, you are thrown into solitary confinement.
If you resist the prison's demands, you're labeled broken, mentally ill, or worse.
No matter how you serve your time, the result is always the same: death. All the effort, all the pain, all the achievements—erased when the sentence is over.
We didn't choose any of this. We were born into a system we couldn't control, forced to live within its walls until the inevitable end of our sentence.

 

[eattwinkiesseejesus]

And the church said - "amen"

 

[Kbeau]

We are paying the price for someone else's decision to procreate because birth is not a choice we made—we were brought into existence by our parents, who acted on their own desires, beliefs, or societal expectations. This decision imposes all the burdens of life on us, including suffering, survival struggles, and eventual death, without our consent.

Life is like being signed up for a subscription service without our consent, except the cost isn't just money—it's constant effort, suffering, and eventual death.

Unlike a normal subscription, there's no easy way to opt out. Even contemplating "cancellation" (suicide) is heavily stigmatized, often illegal, and comes with painful consequences for those who attempt it. Society pressures you to keep going, no matter how unbearable it gets.

No one asks to be born. Procreation is an act where one person (or two parents) makes a choice that fundamentally impacts another being's entire existence. The unborn have no say in whether they want to take on the risks and suffering that life inevitably brings.

The "game" of life was already set up with its rules long before we arrived, and we had no say in whether we wanted to play. We're just thrown into it, expected to follow the rules, and punished if we don't.

We didn't get to review the rules before being born. We weren't given an option to opt in or out—we were just placed here and told to play along.

The systems of money, government, morality, and social expectations were all decided by people who lived long before us. We didn't vote on them, yet we're forced to obey them. If we resist, we face consequences like poverty, exclusion, or even imprisonment.

Not everyone is born into the same circumstances. Some people inherit wealth, power, or good genetics, while others start life in poverty, sickness, or abusive environments. The game isn't fair, but we're expected to play as if it is.

If you refuse to work, you starve.
If you reject social norms, you're ostracized.
If you refuse to participate in life, you're seen as broken or mentally ill.

No matter how well or badly you play, the result is always death. All effort, struggle, and achievements are erased in the end.

We didn't agree to any of this. We were just born into a system we had no control over, forced to navigate it as best we can until the game inevitably

We are the ones paying the price for someone else's decision to bring us here.
We are paying the price for someone else's decision to procreate because birth is not a choice we made—we were imprisoned in existence by our parents, who acted on their own desires, beliefs, or societal expectations. This decision sentenced us to the hardships of life, the suffering, the struggle for survival, and the inevitable death, without ever asking for our consent.
Life is like being locked in a prison without ever being tried or convicted. The walls close in on you from the moment you're born, and there's no escape, no parole, no way out until your sentence is over. The cost isn't just the confinement—it's the constant effort to stay alive, the pain, the struggle, and the inescapable end.
Unlike a regular prisoner, we don't even have the illusion of choice in the matter. The idea of escape (suicide) is criminalized, condemned, and heavily stigmatized. Attempting to flee is met with judgment, rejection, and the harshest of penalties. Society pressures us to stay locked in, no matter how unbearable the conditions become.
No one asks to be born. Procreation is like a decision made by the warden without our consent, a decision that traps another life into a fate they didn't choose. The unborn have no say in whether they want to endure the risks and suffering that come with life.
The prison of life was built long before we arrived. The walls were erected, the bars set in place, and the rules written, all without our input. We were thrown into the cell, expected to follow the rules, and punished if we resist.
We didn't get to review the terms before we were locked up. We weren't given an option to opt in or out—we were simply incarcerated in existence and told to survive.
The systems of money, government, morality, and social expectations are the prison guards of our existence. These systems were put in place long before our birth, and we were never given a say in their creation. We didn't vote for them, yet we are forced to obey their dictates. If we refuse, we face punishment: poverty, exclusion, or even worse.
Not everyone is imprisoned under the same conditions. Some are born into privileged cells, with wealth, power, or good health, while others are shackled by poverty, illness, or abuse. The prison isn't fair, but we're expected to serve our sentences as if it were.
If you refuse to work, you starve in your cell.
If you reject the rules, you are thrown into solitary confinement.
If you resist the prison's demands, you're labeled broken, mentally ill, or worse.
No matter how you serve your time, the result is always the same: death. All the effort, all the pain, all the achievements—erased when the sentence is over.
We didn't choose any of this. We were born into a system we couldn't control, forced to live within its walls until the inevitable end of our sentence.

And don't forget how we're "selfish" if we choose suicide

 

[S like suicide]

We are paying the price for someone else's decision to procreate because birth is not a choice we made—we were brought into existence by our parents, who acted on their own desires, beliefs, or societal expectations. This decision imposes all the burdens of life on us, including suffering, survival struggles, and eventual death, without our consent.

Life is like being signed up for a subscription service without our consent, except the cost isn't just money—it's constant effort, suffering, and eventual death.

Unlike a normal subscription, there's no easy way to opt out. Even contemplating "cancellation" (suicide) is heavily stigmatized, often illegal, and comes with painful consequences for those who attempt it. Society pressures you to keep going, no matter how unbearable it gets.

No one asks to be born. Procreation is an act where one person (or two parents) makes a choice that fundamentally impacts another being's entire existence. The unborn have no say in whether they want to take on the risks and suffering that life inevitably brings.

The "game" of life was already set up with its rules long before we arrived, and we had no say in whether we wanted to play. We're just thrown into it, expected to follow the rules, and punished if we don't.

We didn't get to review the rules before being born. We weren't given an option to opt in or out—we were just placed here and told to play along.

The systems of money, government, morality, and social expectations were all decided by people who lived long before us. We didn't vote on them, yet we're forced to obey them. If we resist, we face consequences like poverty, exclusion, or even imprisonment.

Not everyone is born into the same circumstances. Some people inherit wealth, power, or good genetics, while others start life in poverty, sickness, or abusive environments. The game isn't fair, but we're expected to play as if it is.

If you refuse to work, you starve.
If you reject social norms, you're ostracized.
If you refuse to participate in life, you're seen as broken or mentally ill.

No matter how well or badly you play, the result is always death. All effort, struggle, and achievements are erased in the end.

We didn't agree to any of this. We were just born into a system we had no control over, forced to navigate it as best we can until the game inevitably ends.

Being born means becoming a prisoner. Perhaps this reality is the hell of another world.
I think that life is a gift when at least some fundamental basic conditions are met.
I'm not saying that everything has to be perfect without any problems but at least there must be a possibility of getting out of unfavorable conditions, and if this possibility isn't there no matter what?
It is true that many people live happy or at least peaceful and livable lives but there is a small percentage of people who instead seem to have to suffer endlessly. As if they had come into the world as a "sacrifice".
And it hurts but sometimes it just feels this way.
It's tragic.

 

[IDCAAEBM]

And don't forget how we're "selfish" if we cheese suicide

That's how I know anti-natalism is true, and religion is just a tool used to control people. If I could choose to end my life, legally, I wouldn't be here to argue about it. I wouldn't have to.