Discussion would you define this as a form of transphobia?

[Insomniac]

If a woman feels somewhat humiliated and offended that trans people (originally male) are changing the definition of what it is to be a "woman" after centuries of men oppressing women?

for some reasons, I feel that way. Rightists and far-Rightists are saying that leftists can't define a woman, and it's true. They all say "everyone who identify as a woman is a woman" if you ask them what a woman is.

how about a definition like this: a woman is someone who is born with female reproductive bla bla bla" and a transwoman is someone who identifies as a woman".

why can't we keep the term "transwoman" when referring to a male who had a transition, and leave the term "woman" to those born as women?

would you consider this demand to be coming from a transphobic place?

 

[Life_and_Death]

I find the biggest problem with trans people isn't them but the possible fakes. The creeps that lie just to get into the girls bathroom or whatever. I haven't heard of it happening but it seems so easy especially with "pc" and "you offended me" it's so easy to get people to shut up and humans for the most part are horrible shitty creatures that would lie without batting an eye.
Honestly while an external male calls themselves female I don't 100% agree, I think I mostly don't agree with it because of the lying creeps. It opens the door for them to be able to lie more and "oh pc" so we can't say or do shit.
This whole pc thing has become more dangerous then helpful. And its sad the people supporting it don't see that. I don't disagree with being pc but it shouldn't be a thing. Pc is nothing more then being considerate of others and its bs that humans even need to be told don't be an ass, yet here we are. Pc has become abusive. It's a horrible thing that should go.

 

[TheLastK]

Above all else I believe in freedom of expression, someone should have the right to present themselves however they want to (within reason of course). At the same time I can understand why second wave feminists would have an issue with those they perceive as men claiming their identity. There will always be people who will disguise themselves as the underprivileged in order to progress their own goals. Honestly idk if this counts as transphobia. like what @Life_and_Death said, pc is going too far and now I think people are being peer pressured into supporting things rather than coming to their own conclusions.
A good friend of mine once said "there may be many genders but society at large only recognizes 2: men and not men".

 

[TheLastK]

i know there are flaws in my line of thinking, i know i am being unempathetic here. i didn't always think this way but as i've gotten older i've gotten more angry, lost parts of myself to jealousy of how easy men have it. hypocritically, i do not think this way about trans men (ftm) and i respect them immensely. maybe i just feel like afab people are the only ones capable of really being introspective, and from what i can tell i've always seen when trans men detail their experiences, they are always much more nuanced and intellectual. i have never expressed this to anyone or harrassed any "trans women", i am a respectful person, but this is my opinion on the matter. is this considered transphobic? yeah probably, i just don't particularly care. i have very little empathy for men who act this way, it's clear they view femininity as some kind of joke, some kind of accessory.

It is increasingly hard to have honest conversations about this type of thing. I've heard the argument that trans men are just the victims of extreme internalized misogyny, yet to bring this up with them would be social suicide. IRL, I know many people pretend to care about and support these things just to seem more palatable to those around them, which I think is the main problem with pc. I once got into a very heated argument about the word "nibling" (gender neutral form of niece/nephew) and how I thought it sounded silly. Led to my friend attacking me with ad hominem insults and them drudging up the past. Always stuck in my mind, how something as simple as swaying a tiny bit away from pc led to one of my best friends eating me alive. If people IRL were to hear you say that, you would be stoned in the street. I don't agree with that aggressive way of dealing with things and think free speech is just as important as free expression, even if I do believe it is ok to be transgendered.

 

[nosurpries]

It is increasingly hard to have honest conversations about this type of thing. I've heard the argument that trans men are just the victims of extreme internalized misogyny, yet to bring this up with them would be social suicide. IRL, I know many people pretend to care about and support these things just to seem more palatable to those around them, which I think is the main problem with pc. I once got into a very heated argument about the word "nibling" (gender neutral form of niece/nephew) and how I thought it sounded silly. Led to my friend attacking me with ad hominem insults and them drudging up the past. Always stuck in my mind, how something as simple as swaying a tiny bit away from pc led to one of my best friends eating me alive. If people IRL were to hear you say that, you would be stoned in the street. I don't agree with that aggressive way of dealing with things and think free speech is just as important as free expression, even if I do believe it is ok to be transgendered.

the reason i don't express this opinion of mine irl is just because its not really nessasary to do so. also, it's just a sensitive subject and i recognize that my opinion is a hurtful one. i would never want to purposefully cause someone to feel invaidated or outcasted, so i just keep it to myself. and also for the reason that trans people's existances don't really effect me in any way, my opinion is strictly philosophical.

I've heard the argument that trans men are just the victims of extreme internalized misogyny

while this could be true, in what i've seen i don't see this being the majority of trans men; keep in mind thats just what i've seen so it's anecdotal. also just my experience being born female, it's a common experience to question gender and sexuality and it's more complex than people born male. there is a definite difference between women with internalized misogyny and trans men.

i know this, and my opinon on trans women in my original comment is common "terf" (trans-exclusionary radical feminist) idealogy. i don't consider myself a terf because of my opinions on trans men, but i do recognize that ther terf label probably most accurately describes my line of thinking. however i do not align myself with the label.

 

[Life_and_Death]

the reason i don't express this opinion of mine irl is just because its not really nessasary to do so. also, it's just a sensitive subject and i recognize that my opinion is a hurtful one. i would never want to purposefully cause someone to feel invaidated or outcasted, so i just keep it to myself. and also for the reason that trans people's existances don't really effect me in any way, my opinion is strictly philosophical.


while this could be true, in what i've seen i don't see this being the majority of trans men; keep in mind thats just what i've seen so it's anecdotal. also just my experience being born female, it's a common experience to question gender and sexuality and it's more complex than people born male. there is a definite difference between women with internalized misogyny and trans men.

i know this, and my opinon on trans women in my original comment is common "terf" (trans-exclusionary radical feminist) idealogy. i don't consider myself a terf because of my opinions on trans men, but i do recognize that ther terf label probably most accurately describes my line of thinking. however i do not align myself with the label.

i love this and proves my point exactly

I don't disagree with being pc but it shouldn't be a thing. Pc is nothing more then being considerate of others and its bs that humans even need to be told don't be an ass, yet here we are.

and personally you dont even have to be quiet about it. you should still be able to speak your opinion. you mentioned feeling this way because girls get treated differently. its scarring and very harmful, it brings up a very good point. you did also point out that you recognized your opinion as being harsh, which i also dont completely disagree with however im not sure if youre speaking specifically against calling them women or transwomen in general, if you mean women in general then i totally agree. and i dont even understand why. i mean i do because they want to feel accepted/included/the same and im sure making the distinction of trans takes that away. however, its not that 'you' dont go through your own struggles but you go through (for the most part) completely different struggles.
its the people that are complete dicks and you might as well be talking to a wall. but god forbid you treated them the exact same way back then their poor little feelings would be hurt, but fuck yours. at least you can paint a wall to make it look pretty, i have a feeling if you try that with a person they would just get pissed..or confused lol.
honestly for a bit i even thought about being trans but it wasnt because i wanted to be, it was because i was harassed into it. i hate being female and the way males treat me. im completely fucking sick of it to the point i considered a sex change just so they wouldnt have anything to look at. so yeah, being born female and being trans is completely different. (in case someone reading this cant pick up by my wording, i didnt get the surgery. thankfully? )

 

[Insomniac]

@Life_and_Death, @TheLastK, @nosurpries

I can really relate to all of your feelings and thoughts on the subject.

the most devastating thing for me is that litteral men who view themselves as women succeeded in imposing THEIR view of woman and managed to render my feelings, as a woman, and freedom of speech completely obsolete.

I litteraly never had a problem with transgenders. however, I don't actively support it because

1. I don't like the idea of invasive cosmetic surgery

2. I feel like the scientific definition of a woman and the cultural heritage of a woman (reproductive system, oppression etc) are what make a woman (the scientific definition being the most relevant one to me anyway. XX chromosome)

However, who am I to stop others from doing as they please and living the way they want?

my only issue is when they start calling me a transphobic and forcing me to change MY way and philosophy. And when it's done by transwomen, I feel deeply humiliated.


edit: also, you guys. Talking about this and discussing this matter is not really social suicide because it's practically only in the western world that this is a thing. The vast majority of humanity doesn't understand these concepts..
@Angel Goddess you're welcome to tell me how and why I'm wrong. I'm honestly very curious why exactly you're so angry. I grew up in a Muslim environment but I do not have a closed mind at all.

 

[Angi]

If a woman feels somewhat humiliated and offended that trans people (originally male) are changing the definition of what it is to be a "woman" after centuries of men oppressing women?

for some reasons, I feel that way. Rightists and far-Rightists are saying that leftists can't define a woman, and it's true. They all say "everyone who identify as a woman is a woman" if you ask them what a woman is.

how about a definition like this: a woman is someone who is born with female reproductive bla bla bla" and a transwoman is someone who identifies as a woman".

why can't we keep the term "transwoman" when referring to a male who had a transition, and leave the term "woman" to those born as women?

would you consider this demand to be coming from a transphobic place?

Yes, transphobic. Just because cis women are treated badly, this does not mean cis women can treat other people badly in return. An eye for an eye, and we shall all be blind.

I am pretty sure trans women are not trying to redefine who you are. Why would they want or care to do that? Would you like to look into your heart, to see where this feeling comes from? It does sound very threatening, I see why you do not like to feel this way.

Also, I am sure nobody will humiliate you about your transphobic views if you very carefully keep them to yourself, which is the place where they are most unlikely to harm anyone.

personally, i believe that there are core experiences you go through when you are born female. being socialized, going through puberty, sexuality, etc. i believe this cannot be replicated any other way than to be born female. being female is inherently traumatic, especially puberty and sexualiztion from a young age. these experiences above all else are what make you a woman to me.

i'm a cis female, i don't care what people do with their own bodies it's their choice. however it does make me feel angry and bitter when i see these poeple claim that they are women. they are not, they have not experienced the trauma and frustration of being a real woman. they wear lipstick and dresses like a caricature and i find it insulting. you can wear what you want, get any medical procedure you want, take what ever drugs you want, it doesn't make you a woman. they can take all of it off and be treated with privilege, a luxury that i don't have. men lack depth, they will never understand what it is like to be an adolescent girl, they will never know the hurt we go through. i feel like "transwomen" are just yet another brand of men, they take and take and take and demand from everyone without care. and when you disagree and share your viewpoint, you are shut down by them. it is what men do.

i know there are flaws in my line of thinking, i know i am being unempathetic here. i didn't always think this way but as i've gotten older i've gotten more angry, lost parts of myself to jealousy of how easy men have it. hypocritically, i do not think this way about trans men (ftm) and i respect them immensely. maybe i just feel like afab people are the only ones capable of really being introspective, and from what i can tell i've always seen when trans men detail their experiences, they are always much more nuanced and intellectual. i have never expressed this to anyone or harrassed any "trans women", i am a respectful person, but this is my opinion on the matter. is this considered transphobic? yeah probably, i just don't particularly care. i have very little empathy for men who act this way, it's clear they view femininity as some kind of joke, some kind of accessory.

I see your point. Trans women will never go through the shit you describe. Would you also exclude privileged girls from being women, cis girls who were never sexualized too early, or mistreated? Are they not female?
Why would we want to define our gender by the mistreatment we suffer? We should do it the other way round, get rid of the shit so that neither cis nor trans women have to face this growing up!

Emotionally, I have felt what you decribe, though. I had a person I had come to know as a man come out to me as a trans woman and (more or less) the first thing I thought to myself was: "Why would you buy into this?? Being a woman is terrible! Stay on your side of the coin, it is much nicer there, I wish I was a man!" But I know now that this is not a choice she could make, to stay or become a man, she was born female as I was, just without the matching reproductive organs. Once you look into the topic, it is actually quite fascinating.

I find the biggest problem with trans people isn't them but the possible fakes. The creeps that lie just to get into the girls bathroom or whatever. I haven't heard of it happening but it seems so easy especially with "pc" and "you offended me" it's so easy to get people to shut up and humans for the most part are horrible shitty creatures that would lie without batting an eye.
Honestly while an external male calls themselves female I don't 100% agree, I think I mostly don't agree with it because of the lying creeps. It opens the door for them to be able to lie more and "oh pc" so we can't say or do shit.
This whole pc thing has become more dangerous then helpful. And its sad the people supporting it don't see that. I don't disagree with being pc but it shouldn't be a thing. Pc is nothing more then being considerate of others and its bs that humans even need to be told don't be an ass, yet here we are. Pc has become abusive. It's a horrible thing that should go.

I don't get your point. I read "Pc is nothing more then being considerate of others and its bs that humans even need to be told don't be an ass, yet here we are." and "Pc has become abusive. It's a horrible thing that should go." as opposing statements. Could you clarify?
I fully agree with the former. People should know not to be an ass without even being told, in which case pc would be wholly unnecessary.

 

[Insomniac]

Just because cis women are treated badly, this does not mean cis women can treat other people badly in return

see, I think the fundamental difference between our viewpoints is that, although I feel offended by being called "cis woman" - I'm a woman, period.- I'm not going to assume you're a misogyn because of it.

Edit: my original point was to call transgenders "transwomen", "transmen" and not change the original definition of men and women. so, you answered my question. You think I'm transphobic for wanting to call the color red "red".

 

[TheLastK]

1. I don't like the idea of invasive cosmetic surgery

A lot of people I know view the surgery, particularly bottom surgery, as essentially perfectly changing certain parts. It really isn't, sadly the science just isn't quite there yet, and many of these surgeries can have serious adverse side effects. People should be free to get them, but should also be informed of what could go wrong.

2. I feel like the scientific definition of a woman and the cultural heritage of a woman (reproductive system, oppression etc) are what make a woman (the scientific definition being the most relevant one to me anyway. XX chromosome)

People often get the words female and woman mixed up. Female is biological, woman is cultural, at least as far as I understand it. I know that calling someone a "female girl" is a bit of a meme online but it does make sense, a trans woman could be described as a male girl in the same way (although I don't think many trans women would like to be called that all too much).
I personally have no issue with trans people, one of the main terf arguing points is about transwomen who creep on ciswomen in bathrooms and such, using trans as a disguise to seem less threatening and gain access to toilets and what not, but the same could be said for any group and not all trans people should be judged on these criminals. People deserve to express themselves how they see fit, so long as it is within reason.
My issue with trans stuff as a whole is how blatantly large medical corporations are targeting vulnerable trans people, promising surgery and hormone therapy that will solve all their problems when more often than not it doesn't and leaves them with more health issues than before. I view that as supporting of trans people personally.

Emotionally, I have felt what you decribe, though. I had a person I had come to know as a man come out to me as a trans woman and (more or less) the first thing I thought to myself was: "Why would you buy into this?? Being a woman is terrible! Stay on your side of the coin, it is much nicer there, I wish I was a man!" But I know now that this is not a choice she could make, to stay or become a man, she was born female as I was, just without the matching reproductive organs. Once you look into the topic, it is actually quite fascinating.

That makes perfect sense to me, and your friend has every right to express herself the way she feels most comfortable.

I don't get your point. I read "Pc is nothing more then being considerate of others and its bs that humans even need to be told don't be an ass, yet here we are." and "Pc has become abusive. It's a horrible thing that should go." as opposing statements. Could you clarify?
I fully agree with the former. People should know not to be an ass without even being told, in which case pc would be wholly unnecessary.

I won't lie, this confused me too, but I guess it is a matter of what being pc means. I had said in an earlier comment that pc peer pressures people into believing something without critically thinking first, which in my opinion goes against free speech. Besides, what is being "an ass"? I know that telling a trans person that their identity is inherently wrong and they deserve to be beaten is, but could the same be said about saying an assumed transphobic persons ideas and identity is inherently wrong and they deserve to be beaten? In my opinion, it is a lot more grey then we would like to think. This is my problem with pc, it is inherently authoritarian and gives no room for critical discussion.

 

[Angi]

see, I think the fundamental difference between out viewpoints is that, although I feel offended by being called "cis woman" - I'm a woman, period.- I'm not going to assume you're a misogyn because of it.

Could you elaborate? I would like to understand your point. Where is the connection between people who use the word "cis woman" and people who are a misogyn?

Also, I did not call you a cis woman. You could be trans for all I care. Same as you could be a tall woman. Or an old woman. None of my business. If you think I need any information on who you are, please let me know.
Indeed, the sentence you quoted could probably have done with more effort from my side. Originally I had "Just because women are treated badly, this does not mean women can treat other people badly in return.", but then I thought it would sound rather misleading in this particular context. You may replace "women" in this sentence with any group you like, I think it will still convey the point I was trying to make. Maybe you can find a more fitting word for this particular discussion?

 

[Insomniac]

People often get the words female and woman mixed up.

so do you think that transwomen would be okay with being called "male women" and thansmen "female men"?

Female is biological, woman is cultural, at least as far as I understand it.

I strongly disagree. This would make "woman" impossible to define if you think about it.

A woman is an adult female human being. A girl is a young/non matured female human being. Woman and girl are specifications of the word "female". It's about the age of the female.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I don't get your point. I read "Pc is nothing more then being considerate of others and its bs that humans even need to be told don't be an ass, yet here we are." and "Pc has become abusive. It's a horrible thing that should go." as opposing statements. Could you clarify?
I fully agree with the former. People should know not to be an ass without even being told, in which case pc would be wholly unnecessary.

its overly "nice" and "considerate" to the point that it has become self-centered. an example i notice that for the most part if someone outside of the lgbt community mispronounces (uses the wrong term or whatever) they tend to go from 0-a million in zero seconds. "thats offensive and dont say that" dude, when you need a whole list you cant expect people to know everything, chill and instead use it as a chance to educate so they know instead of just hating you for yelling at them for a basic mistake. and its things like that. ive talked to people and its honestly lead to people being scared to even speak because theyre worried theyre going to make a mistake and have to deal with being yelled at for something thats not really their fault. this is the exact definition of abusive behaviour. youre scaring them into being silent
(whats going to be ironic is if im called out for the word 'dude' lmfao)

 

[TheLastK]

so do you think that transwomen would be okay with being called "male women" and thansmen "female men"?

No I don't, but it wouldn't be an incorrect thing to say. They would take offence as many people view female=woman and male=man, just like you said. You are completely free to have your opinion of course.

its overly "nice" and "considerate" to the point that it has become self-centered. an example i notice that for the most part if someone outside of the lgbt community mispronounces (uses the wrong term or whatever) they tend to go from 0-a million in zero seconds. "thats offensive and dont say that" dude, when you need a whole list you cant expect people to know everything, chill and instead use it as a chance to educate so they know instead of just hating you for yelling at them for a basic mistake. and its things like that. ive talked to people and its honestly lead to people being scared to even speak because theyre worried theyre going to make a mistake and have to deal with being yelled at for something thats not really their fault. this is the exact definition of abusive behaviour. youre scaring them into being silent
(whats going to be ironic is if im called out for the word 'dude' lmfao)

I know exactly what you mean, a friend of mine gave out to me for saying the word "retard" once but as soon as I received my diagnosis of a lifelong incurable illness I was apparently allowed to say it. I asked them if they thought that because the government recognized I was now disabled that do they think the government decides who gets to say what words and they unironically said "yes". I've been scared to talk to people about benign things because of pc culture.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I've been scared to talk to people about benign things because of pc culture.

im sorry im not laughing at you

they think the government decides who gets to say what words and they unironically said "yes"

 

[TheLastK]

im sorry im not laughing at you

I know it's ok haha

 

[pris]

I'm a trans woman. I'm so tired of cis people talking about us as if they can even comprehend the hell that is gender dysphoria. I wish nobody knew about trans people and just left us alone. Experiencing all of the hate and debate over whether or not I even exist has eroded my sense of identity, I no longer feel like I can trust that I'm capable of knowing who I even am. I'm just not strong enough to fight this. You've all made characters in your mind of what a trans woman is, which is anything but a human being that is deserving of love. You won't stop until we've all killed ourselves. I hope you're happy.

 

[Insomniac]

Could you elaborate? I would like to understand your point. Where is the connection between people who use the word "cis woman" and people who are a misogyn?

It's the exact same logic you used to call my viewpoint "transphobic".

what I especially don't get about the trans community representatives in medias (notice that I'm not referring to trans people but to the people who represent them online) is that if I, a woman, define a woman as an adult female and a girl as a child female, I'm transphobic.

BUT then they go around and say that every women can define the term "woman" for themselves? So what they really mean is that ONLY transwomen and their allies can defend the word "woman"? Do you see the blatant hypocrisy and misogyny?

 

[nosurpries]

I see your point. Trans women will never go through the shit you describe. Would you also exclude privileged girls from being women, cis girls who were never sexualized too early, or mistreated? Are they not female?
Why would we want to define our gender by the mistreatment we suffer? We should do it the other way round, get rid of the shit so that neither cis nor trans women have to face this growing up!

Emotionally, I have felt what you decribe, though. I had a person I had come to know as a man come out to me as a trans woman and (more or less) the first thing I thought to myself was: "Why would you buy into this?? Being a woman is terrible! Stay on your side of the coin, it is much nicer there, I wish I was a man!" But I know now that this is not a choice she could make, to stay or become a man, she was born female as I was, just without the matching reproductive organs. Once you look into the topic, it is actually quite fascinating.

the cases of women experiences not a single instance of discriminatory violence or harrassment of any kind is so rare i don't count it as a talking point really. and regardless of harrassment and violence, puberty for women is inherently traumatic; that is an experience. trans women don't bleed.

 

[TheLastK]

I'm a trans woman. I'm so tired of cis people talking about us as if they can even comprehend the hell that is gender dysphoria. I wish nobody knew about trans people and just left us alone. Experiencing all of the hate and debate over whether or not I even exist has eroded my sense of identity, I no longer feel like I can trust that I'm capable of knowing who I even am. I'm just not strong enough to fight this. You've all made characters in your mind of what a trans woman is, which is anything but a human being that is deserving of love. You won't stop until we've all killed ourselves. I hope you're happy.

Woah now I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that. You have every right to express yourself however you please and to receive basic human decency.

 

[Insomniac]

I'm a trans woman. I'm so tired of cis people talking about us as if they can even comprehend the hell that is gender dysphoria. I wish nobody knew about trans people and just left us alone. Experiencing all of the hate and debate over whether or not I even exist has eroded my sense of identity, I no longer feel like I can trust that I'm capable of knowing who I even am. I'm just not strong enough to fight this. You've all made characters in your mind of what a trans woman is, which is anything but a human being that is deserving of love. You won't stop until we've all killed ourselves. I hope you're happy.

Listen, I have nothing against the trans community. I think people need to start talking for themselves instead of talking for the whole community. I don't think every trans person thinks like you.

My answer to your post is all over the thread. I have repeated myself enough.

Woah now I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that. You have every right to express yourself however you please and to receive basic human decency.

we litteraly answered the same thing at the same time lol

 

[Life_and_Death]

im really sorry but all i see is my point being proven

 

[pris]

Woah now I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that. You have every right to express yourself however you please and to receive basic human decency.

Everywhere I go there is somebody talking about whether or not I exist. Everywhere, people need to go on about the "trans debate". It's dehumanizing and degrading. I don't care about "debating logically" anymore. It's like an wound that gets opened up repeatedly.

 

[TheLastK]

we litteraly answered the same thing at the same time lol

Yeah lmao. I think users like @Angel Goddess and @pris see this thread as attacking their identity and therefore their person. I don't see how this is the case at all, nobody has said they do not deserve to exist and i get the the feeling they didn't even read the comments, not trying to call anyone out of course you've no obligation to read any of this. This is what I mean when I'm talking about pc culture though, at least @Angi provided arguments and contributed to the discussion in a meaningful way but others will look at people in this thread being critical of certain aspects of how trans people are being treated, the differences between 2nd and 3rd wave feminism, and the problems with pc culture and immediately cry transphobia.

Everywhere I go there is somebody talking about whether or not I exist. Everywhere, people need to go on about the "trans debate". It's dehumanizing and degrading. I don't care about "debating logically" anymore. It's like an wound that gets opened up repeatedly.

I can understand and empathize with that, I know it is not the same thing but I come from a half immigrant family and to hear talks about the immigration debate can be hard to hear, but I view that personally as a platform to express my views on such and why my family deserves to live in my home country. You exist (unless you're some sort of bot but I doubt that) and you deserve to exist, but people are going to talk about something that is present in the current discourse and that's inevitable. I just hope you understand that people here don't wish any harm on you.

 

[Insomniac]

Everywhere I go there is somebody talking about whether or not I exist. Everywhere, people need to go on about the "trans debate". It's dehumanizing and degrading. I don't care about "debating logically" anymore. It's like an wound that gets opened up repeatedly.

I have a solution. It'd be great if we could just ignore each other but the issue here is that at school and at work, those who don't actively support the view that transwomen should be called women are being more and more punished along with their parents.

nobody in their right mind has an issue with trans people because nobody in their right mind infringe on others freedom of speech and body. However, if this become a SYSTEMIC issue, then this is no longer about you alone. This is about me too.

oh and, I'm black woman and my origins are Muslim from a third world country. you're not the only human in pain trust me.

 

[TheLastK]

nobody in their right mind has an issue with trans people because nobody in their right mind infringe on others freedom of speech and body. However, if this become a SYSTEMIC issue, then this is no longer about you alone. This is about me too.

I have to agree, nobody who isn't just flat out mean thinks trans people should not exist. I think what it is is that trans women's issues are superseding cis women's issues in many peoples eyes. Nobody has ever even attempted to educate me on what it means to be trans, what gender dysphoria feels like, or the struggles of trans people. All I really hear is people shouting trans rights are human rights (which they are, don't get me wrong) and death to all terfs (although anyone who is even remotely critical of trans people are labelled terfs even if they aren't close to being radical feminists). I want to learn, I want to discuss, but I'm often told that my opinion doesn't matter and I should just support blindly, which I think personally draws people to be more transphobic, not less.

 

[Insomniac]

I want to learn, I want to discuss

me too. my opinions are just opinions. they're not who I am. I don't have fixated opinions because I have arguments. but I'm not met with arguments. I have yet to hear the offical definition of a woman by the trans community.

The sad thing is, this is the political subforum and the tag is "discussions". People who ckme here should be willing to discuss, otherwise I would have posted my thread in the suicide forum as a "vent". So obviously my intent was to discuss but that only make me a "transphobic". so what is the point of this subforum?

 

[pris]

I have a solution. It'd be great if we could just ignore each other but the issue here is that at school and at work, those who don't actively support the view that transwomen should be called women are being more and more punished along with their parents.

nobody in their right mind has an issue with trans people because nobody in their right mind infringe on others freedom of speech and body. However, if this become a SYSTEMIC issue, then this is no longer about you alone. This is about me too.

oh and, I'm black woman and my origins are Muslim from a third world country. you're not the only human in pain trust me.

I have to agree, nobody who isn't just flat out mean thinks trans people should not exist. I think what it is is that trans women's issues are superseding cis women's issues in many peoples eyes. Nobody has ever even attempted to educate me on what it means to be trans, what gender dysphoria feels like, or the struggles of trans people. All I really hear is people shouting trans rights are human rights (which they are, don't get me wrong) and death to all terfs (although anyone who is even remotely critical of trans people are labelled terfs even if they aren't close to being radical feminists). I want to learn, I want to discuss, but I'm often told that my opinion doesn't matter and I should just support blindly, which I think personally draws people to be more transphobic, not less.

Okay, then use the internet and learn, be critical of your sources. It's too emotionally exhausting as somebody who decided to go on a website called Sanctioned Suicide as soon as they woke up to explain these things to you. It's not my job.

 

[Insomniac]

It's too emotionally exhausting as somebody who decided to go on a website called Sanctioned Suicide

you're in the political subforum and the tag is "discussion" not "vent".

 

[pris]

me too. my opinions are just opinions. they're not who I am. I don't have fixated opinions because I have arguments. but I'm not met with arguments. I have yet to hear the offical definition of a woman by the trans community.

The sad thing is, this is the political subforum and the tag is "discussions". People who ckme here should be willing to discuss, otherwise I would have posted my thread in the suicide forum as a "vent". So obviously my intent was to discuss but that only make me a "transphobic". so what is the point of this subforum?

You're absolutely right. And that's my mistake. And I don't care either. I'm done caring. I accidentally clicked this thread, I read it, and it exacerbated my daily panic.