Discussion would you define this as a form of transphobia?

[TheLastK]

Okay, then use the internet and learn, be critical of your sources. It's too emotionally exhausting as somebody who decided to go on a website called Sanctioned Suicide as soon as they woke up to explain these things to you. It's not my job.

This is exactly what I mean, anything that is considered "left" I want to learn about I'm always told to do my own research and reading without being given any idea of where to even start (not saying you have to) and told it isn't their responsibility, whereas any I know on the "right" is more than willing to educate me, even if it is total nonsense.

Edit: You're probably right though that SaSu might be the wrong place for this discussion. Most here want to ctb, including myself, and don't want to make anyone else's life any worse.

You're absolutely right. And that's my mistake. And I don't care either. I'm done caring. I accidentally clicked this thread, I read it, and it exacerbated my daily panic.

Look I'm sorry you feel that way and I never meant to make yourself or anyone who identifies similarly to you to feel bad. I would like to know where exactly you were offended in this thread, or if it is just the threads existence in general, but you're not obligated to. I think everyone here has been civil and kind to you and, forgive me if this is offensive, you took it all the wrong way. I wish you the best of luck in the future and I hope you don't have to ctb.

 

[Insomniac]

This is exactly what I mean, anything that is considered "left" I want to learn about I'm always told to do my own research and reading without being given any idea of where to even start (not saying you have to) and told it isn't their responsibility, whereas any I know on the "right" is more than willing to educate me, even if it is total nonsense.

Edit: You're probably right though that SaSu might be the wrong place for this discussion. Most here want to ctb, including myself, and don't want to make anyone else's life any worse.

Look I'm sorry you feel that way and I never meant to make yourself or anyone who identifies similarly to you to feel bad. I would like to know where exactly you were offended in this thread, or if it is just the threads existence in general, but you're not obligated to. I think everyone here has been civil and kind to you and, forgive me if this is offensive, you took it all the wrong way. I wish you the best of luck in the future and I hope you don't have to ctb.

It's very noble of you to apologise but in my experience, taking the high road doesn't work anymore (it used to).

I felt like apologising to @pris too but since my feelings were hurt too (by all the assumptions and the fact that not even read the posts on the thread) I realised that it was useless. some people will just disregard you completely and be obsessed about their own feelings as if I wasn't part of a suicide forum too.

 

[TheLastK]

It's very noble of you to apologise but in my experience, taking the high road doesn't work anymore (it used to).

I felt like apologising to @pris too but since my feelings were hurt too (by all the assumptions and the fact that not even read the posts on the thread) I realised that it was useless. some people will just disregard you completely and be obsessed about their own feelings as if I wasn't part of a suicide forum too.

That is very kind of you to say, and your feelings are just as valid to. Fuck, I think most things are valid really. I'll say the same to you, I hope everything works out and you don't have to ctb

 

[Unworthyoflove]

to begin with what you said about rightists and leftists .... THE RIGHT WING AND THE LEFT WING BELONG TO THE SAME BIRD ! As such this issue has probably very little to do with a " political aspect" but very much with the Agenda behind this movement. to be very clear , I have absolutly nothing against people wanting to change their gender. But can we really identify as what we want. If this is the case, then from tomorrow on I will identify as being a cat ! and everyone should respect and accept this right ? a nother aspect is that we could or should maybe question why it is so important nowadays to get rid of all kinds of family concepts. what is the true goal behind taking away as much human identity as possible ? and why do little children have to learn in school that there is more than 2 genders ? I can truly understand why you would feel humiliated by this new form of " programming " society . not only because women have been opressed by men. there is also a lot of harm done to men. this whole subject in my opinion is a war against human nature in general. I guess it is a part of the transhuman agenda...wanting to turn us into something we arent by constantly brainwashing and programming us. welcome to huxleys " brave new world "

 

[Insomniac]

this is the case, then from tomorrow on I will identify as being a cat !

type "neopronouns" on tik tok and listen to @lesbiansnowwhite on there.

 

[TheLastK]

to begin with what you said about rightists and leftists .... THE RIGHT WING AND THE LEFT WING BELONG TO THE SAME BIRD ! As such this issue has probably very little to do with a " political aspect" but very much with the Agenda behind this movement. to be very clear , I have absolutly nothing against people wanting to change their gender. But can we really identify as what we want. If this is the case, then from tomorrow on I will identify as being a cat ! and everyone should respect and accept this right ? a nother aspect is that we could or should maybe question why it is so important nowadays to get rid of all kinds of family concepts. what is the true goal behind taking away as much human identity as possible ? and why do little children have to learn in school that there is more than 2 genders ? I can truly understand why you would feel humiliated by this new form of " programming " society . not only because women have been opressed by men. there is also a lot of harm done to men. this whole subject in my opinion is a war against human nature in general. I guess it is a part of the transhuman agenda...wanting to turn us into something we arent by constantly brainwashing and programming us. welcome to huxleys " brave new world "

Yeah left and right are two sides of the same coin, but the people who identify with both sides have very different ways of dealing with their "opponents". I generally tend to agree with more left wing ideology, like being pro-choice, free healthcare etc., but people on the right are far better at spreading their ideology. I'd hypothesize that most people who say they are left wing secretly believe a lot of right wing stuff as the main way people try to spread left wing ideology is by simply saying that this is correct and anything else is wrong. It is sad to see tbh. I don't believe this is a transhumanist conspiracy, but just people trying to make money. I remember someone saying that "the perfect consumer is a transman; the salary of a man, the cosmetic spending of a woman, and the medical needs of a long term illness patient". While this obviously only applies to tans people who choose operations and hormone therapy, it ties in to what I said earlier in the thread, giant corporations are taking advantage of trans people and that's horrible, much in the same way that it is bad take advantage of any group of people. I also have to disagree with the cat comment, a trans person still identifies as a human, it isn't the same as like furries. I suppose you could compare it to the idea of transracialism, but idk if that is fair.

type "neopronouns" on tik tok and listen to @lesbiansnowwhite on there.

I just looked that tiktok up, what is the deal with neopronouns? Like genuinely I have no idea how this is supposed to work. To me, it just feels like hyper-individualism at its height, but feel free anyone to correct me.

 

[Unworthyoflove]

type "neopronouns" on tik tok and listen to @lesbiansnowwhite on there.

sry , I boycott tic toc ;) but you can tell me what it is if you want :)

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

I'm too drunk for this, can't read all this shit, but I think a trans woman is a female brain in a male body, more or less. Transphobia shouldn't be much of a problem if you don't act on it and treat everyone equally, if u have it.

 

[Unworthyoflove]

Yeah left and right are two sides of the same coin, but the people who identify with both sides have very different ways of dealing with their "opponents". I generally tend to agree with more left wing ideology, like being pro-choice, free healthcare etc., but people on the right are far better at spreading their ideology. I'd hypothesize that most people who say they are left wing secretly believe a lot of right wing stuff as the main way people try to spread left wing ideology is by simply saying that this is correct and anything else is wrong. It is sad to see tbh. I don't believe this is a transhumanist conspiracy, but just people trying to make money. I remember someone saying that "the perfect consumer is a transman; the salary of a man, the cosmetic spending of a woman, and the medical needs of a long term illness patient". While this obviously only applies to tans people who choose operations and hormone therapy, it ties in to what I said earlier in the thread, giant corporations are taking advantage of trans people and that's horrible, much in the same way that it is bad take advantage of any group of people. I also have to disagree with the cat comment, a trans person still identifies as a human, it isn't the same as like furries. I suppose you could compare it to the idea of transracialism, but idk if that is fair.

I just looked that tiktok up, what is the deal with neopronouns? Like genuinely I have no idea how this is supposed to work. To me, it just feels like hyper-individualism at its height, but feel free anyone to correct me.

I think with your view on this not being transhumanism but all about money, you are actually agreeing to what I said. because transhumanism is very much about being the best possible consumer. Or why did you think I said welcome to huxleys brave new world. but maybe you havent read it. anyhow, I didnt use the word conspiracy here for a reason. so please dont put it like I ve said that. and if you want to believe in that political hollywood kinda show of left and right, thats your choice. its there for people to believe that they have diffrent opinions and goals. when in reality thats never been the case. In the not publicly shown meetings, where the actual people who decide stuff sit together,there is no left and right and also its most certainly not any politicians deciding anything at all. about the cat...I think that if we go as far as to identify as a nother gender and change the definition for everyone(without consent) then its fair that one could also identify as an animal. this is not transphobic but a logical result of the whole idea. btw I said that I have nothing against people changing their genders. but I dont like that because of this the definition of what a woman is had to change for everyone and that the children are programmed with this before they are old enough to understand what this is about. that to my is child abuse and manipulation with bad intention.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I'm gonna answer this post as a trans woman myself.
I think concern trolling about the meaning of words has a transphobic flavor because in this particular context this rhetoric is used to take away validity from our identity. It's used to label us as second-class women, seen in your complaint about us claiming the term "women" for ourselves, which you seem to take issue with.

Here is the deal. Trans women don't take anything away from cis-women by identifying as women. And I think it's very important to internalize this. You don't own the word and we don't need your approval to exist, how about that? And look, let's get real for a second. It wasn't us trans people that took away your right to abortion in the US, right? Trans women were on the front line for womens rights ever since we have existed. We have been on your side when it came to questions regarding bodily autonomy for decades. I'll tell you why, the freedom to make autonomous decisions regarding your own body also affects us because transitioning is a severe intervention into the biology of our body.

So this entire discussion is quite odd, to be honest. You need to point the finger at cis-men because this society in many aspects still has patriachal structures. They've been oppressing you for centuries. And when they take away your rights and point the finger at us, it's a strategic distraction and it seems you fell for it. You need to point the finger at the people who are in charge of your rights and that's not us. The same people who took away your right to abortion also wage a war at our right to transition right now in the US. Nearly 240 anti-LGBT bills have been filed in 2022 alone and most of them target trans people. We're your allies, not your enemies.

And: other cis-women who oppose womens rights (also known as Republicans) have more structural power to take away your rights than we do and they're very often complicit in the conservative agenda to roll back your civil rights. It doesn't matter how you spin it, we've never been the reason for your misery.



This talking point has been debunked thoroughly among academic circles. Here are some scientific papers that researched the claim regarding predators and creeps invading womens spaces for example as a result of self-ID laws, something that has existed in Switzerland for almost 8 months now. I've uploaded the highlights of said studies for you, in case you don't have the time to read through them.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1468-2230.12507

View attachment 96645
View attachment 96646

https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/files/139271435/Bristol_Pure_Version_PD.pdf

View attachment 96647

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/4rs4n6h0

View attachment 96648

Long story short; the idea that both trans-women and cis-men would invade womens spaces as a result of trans-affirming laws is fear-mongering that's based on anything but facts and repeating that argument doesn't contribute anything constructive to the discussion, the opposite is the case - you just reinforce the notion that trans-affirming laws hurt cis-women when that's not the case.

By the way, here in Switzerland we didn't experience any abuse either ever since we have implemented self-identification laws, which means you can change your gender through a very simple procedure that doesn't require a psychatric evaluation anymore. And I support this change because it means we're moving forward as a progressive society.

i could be reading this wrong but it sounds like youre saying im grouping everyone together when im not

 

[TheLastK]

I think with your view on this not being transhumanism but all about money, you are actually agreeing to what I said. because transhumanism is very much about being the best possible consumer. Or why did you think I said welcome to huxleys brave new world. but maybe you havent read it. anyhow, I didnt use the word conspiracy here for a reason. so please dont put it like I ve said that. and if you want to believe in that political hollywood kinda show of left and right, thats your choice. its there for people to believe that they have diffrent opinions and goals. when in reality thats never been the case. In the not publicly shown meetings, where the actual people who decide stuff sit together,there is no left and right and also its most certainly not any politicians deciding anything at all. about the cat...I think that if we go as far as to identify as a nother gender and change the definition for everyone(without consent) then its fair that one could also identify as an animal. this is not transphobic but a logical result of the whole idea. btw I said that I have nothing against people changing their genders. but I dont like that because of this the definition of what a woman is had to change for everyone and that the children are programmed with this before they are old enough to understand what this is about. that to my is child abuse and manipulation with bad intention.

Yeah I'm very sorry for misinterpreting your argument, that all makes a decent level of sense, I guess I thought you were implying that the powers that be want everyone to be trans but after rereading its clear that its not, also sorry I didn't get the reference at all. At the top, there is no left and right, only the top. I didn't think you, or anyone else in this thread, are transphobic.

I'm gonna answer this post as a trans woman myself.
I think concern trolling about the meaning of words has a transphobic flavor because in this particular context this rhetoric is used to take away validity from our identity. It's used to label us as second-class women, seen in your complaint about us claiming the term "women" for ourselves, which you seem to take issue with.

Here is the deal. Trans women don't take anything away from cis-women by identifying as women. And I think it's very important to internalize this. You don't own the word and we don't need your approval to exist, how about that? And look, let's get real for a second. It wasn't us trans people that took away your right to abortion in the US, right? Trans women were on the front line for womens rights ever since we have existed. We have been on your side when it came to questions regarding bodily autonomy for decades. I'll tell you why, the freedom to make autonomous decisions regarding your own body also affects us because transitioning is a severe intervention into the biology of our body.

So this entire discussion is quite odd, to be honest. You need to point the finger at cis-men because this society in many aspects still has patriachal structures. They've been oppressing you for centuries. And when they take away your rights and point the finger at us, it's a strategic distraction and it seems you fell for it. You need to point the finger at the people who are in charge of your rights and that's not us. The same people who took away your right to abortion also wage a war at our right to transition right now in the US. Nearly 240 anti-LGBT bills have been filed in 2022 alone and most of them target trans people. We're your allies, not your enemies.

And: other cis-women who oppose womens rights (also known as Republicans) have more structural power to take away your rights than we do and they're very often complicit in the conservative agenda to roll back your civil rights. It doesn't matter how you spin it, we've never been the reason for your misery.



This talking point has been debunked thoroughly among academic circles. Here are some scientific papers that researched the claim regarding predators and creeps invading womens spaces for example as a result of self-ID laws, something that has existed in Switzerland for almost 8 months now. I've uploaded the highlights of said studies for you, in case you don't have the time to read through them.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1468-2230.12507

View attachment 96645
View attachment 96646

https://research-information.bris.ac.uk/ws/files/139271435/Bristol_Pure_Version_PD.pdf

View attachment 96647

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/4rs4n6h0

View attachment 96648

Long story short; the idea that both trans-women and cis-men would invade womens spaces as a result of trans-affirming laws is fear-mongering that's based on anything but facts and repeating that argument doesn't contribute anything constructive to the discussion, the opposite is the case - you just reinforce the notion that trans-affirming laws hurt cis-women when that's not the case.

By the way, here in Switzerland we didn't experience any abuse either ever since we have implemented self-identification laws, which means you can change your gender through a very simple procedure that doesn't require a psychatric evaluation anymore. And I support this change because it means we're moving forward as a progressive society.

Wow thank you so much for providing so much info! this is exactly the kind of thing I have been looking for. As I said earlier in the thread, I felt that most people who support trans rights openly refuse to elaborate on anything, but you have provided great information and arguments. I don't have time to read the studies thoroughly right now, so thank you for the snippets. I'm not from USA, so I can't speak to most of the earlier points, but regardless, thank you for the information and participating in the discussion.

 

[Insomniac]

I'm gonna answer this post as a trans woman myself.
I think concern trolling about the meaning of words has a transphobic flavor because in this particular context this rhetoric is used to take away validity from our identity. It's used to label us as second-class women, seen in your complaint about us claiming the term "women" for ourselves, which you seem to take issue with.

thanks for your well structured argument.

I'm not "concern-trolling". I have been attacked for saying that a woman to me is an adult female (the same way a girl to me is a child female). Transwomen say that anyone can define a woman for themselves but apparently that exclude me, doesn't it?

Contrary to what you believe, I do not care about what other people do with their body and speech. My only issue is when they want to impose it on others in a systemic context (school or work).

I have said this a thousand time in this thread, if anyone cares the read the previous posts.

at this point, the word "transphobic" has lost meaning to me because of how easily and mercilessly its thrown around. and I find that sad quite honestly. anyone who has read the whole thread can tell that I'm neither a transphobic, nor a troll. I honestly have no words for the fact that you're calling me a troll for making this thread.

I'm too drunk for this, can't read all this shit, but I think a trans woman is a female brain in a male body, more or less. Transphobia shouldn't be much of a problem if you don't act on it and treat everyone equally, if u have it.

this is the kind of thread that require you to read the previous posts.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I'm not "concern-trolling". I have been attacked for saying that a woman to me is an adult female (the same way a girl to me is a child female). Transwomen say that anyone can define a woman for themselves but apparently that exclude me, doesn't it?

Contrary to what you believe, I do not care about what other people do with their body and speech. My only issue is when they want to impose it on others in a systemic context (school or work).

I have said this a thousand time in this thread, if anyone cares the read the previous posts.

at this point, the word "transphobic" has lost meaning to me because of how easily and mercilessly its thrown around. and I find that sad quite honestly. anyone who has read the whole thread can tell that I'm neither a transphobic, nor a troll. I honestly have no words for the fact that you're calling me a troll for making this thread.

hugs for this part

 

[Insomniac]

btw I said that I have nothing against people changing their genders. but I dont like that because of this the definition of what a woman is had to change for everyone

this is litterally the whole point of this thread.


I do not understand why this is so hard to understand for self proclaimed representatives of the trans community.

I do not believe that all transpeople think like that. I think the media likes drama so they only show people who like to create drama on both sides (right wing and left wings). So I don't like when a transperson comes and tries to assume that every transperson share the opinion.

The same way I don't like when feminists act like every feminist wants inclusive writing. French is my first language and inclusive writing(feminisation of speech instead of default masculine) in such a complex and gendered language would be an absolute nightmare. Just an example to show that not every co text is the same and not everyone from a particular community feels the same.

I'm leaving this debate here. thanks to Angie and rainandsadness for providing arguments.

 

[odradek]

To answer the OP I do think the question can be defined as transphobic. I'm sorry for your humiliation and offense but you speak like the definition of "woman" grows on a vine somewhere. Language is fluid and evolves, it always has and it always will. Just like society. You know this. What an odd semantic hill to die on.

Further, the people who are going to prey on women in bathrooms are just that, people who prey on women in bathrooms. If they happen to be trans, that's a data point for assault statistics but it has no bearing on the trans community. These are old tropes guys. We even got an attack helicopter joke. So lame. I like when reactionaries are more creative tbh.

50 points from Hufflepuff.

 

[PaperGodzilla]

Yes it is transphobic in the sense that nobody is changing the definition of what is a man, or a woman. Trans people always have existed throught history, and gender ≠ sex.
Gender is a social construct and always has been. Also most feminist agree with this statement ("On ne nait pas femme, on le devient" -Simone de Beauvoir").

 

[Nolan96]

I think "transphobia" (like "homophobia") is an absurd word used to pathologize and silence people for having thoughts in their heads. It's basically saying that you must be "phobic" ie. mentally ill to have an opinion outside the LGBT cult's agenda.

These two words don't belong anywhere in the vocabulary of reasonable people.

Also I think it's grimly funny that now that we're living in a society where men are treated worse than women on average, women are getting angry at the idea that some men might unlock the cheatcode to reduce their difficulty settings by pretending to be transwomen.

I don't know. I'd be kind of pissed if I were a transwoman and all these feminists were shrieking at me that I'm a male pig who doesn't deserve to enter into the sisterhood after desperately yearning to be accepted as a woman all my life and making huge efforts and sacrifices to do so. I'd also be pissed if I were a woman facing the prospect of womanhood being defined out of existence. Society in general is shit right now. :/