Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[TiredHorse]

Thank you, @Halo13.

To those reading, please note that Halo13 used the pre-inert gas variation that resulted in a severe hypercapnic alarm reaction --in other words, this is what happens when you don't adequately flush the eb with inert gas, and why the inert gas method evolved in the first place.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

i hope all you all will be pulling for me. i don't know you folks but i feel you all are teammates. i hope i can conquer the SI when the time comes.

Routing for you too pal :)

 

[Halo13]

N2...its natures gift if we're being chased by monsters either physically or mentally. this site is a gift for me personally. My practice rig is just about complete. i'll practice and when my cancer starts to spread and really affect me, i'll make my move. i hope all you all will be pulling for me. i don't know you folks but i feel you all are teammates. i hope i can conquer the SI when the time comes.

Teammates all trying to accomplish the same goal! I like your theory. Hoping for the best in your plan.

Routing for you too pal :)

Fingers crossed for you also :)

 

[JWL]

N2...its natures gift if we're being chased by monsters either physically or mentally. this site is a gift for me personally. My practice rig is just about complete. i'll practice and when my cancer starts to spread and really affect me, i'll make my move. i hope all you all will be pulling for me. i don't know you folks but i feel you all are teammates. i hope i can conquer the SI when the time comes.

I don't know about teammates, but we're all fellow travellers about to embark on a hell of a journey..

 

[Roger]

All terribly complicated. I thought I'd die of old age before I reached the end of the thread.
Accepting that I know sod-all about this method, and acknowledging the fact that my suggestion here is not completely my original idea, could the plastic bag be replaced by a service respirator (gas mask)? It has two one-way valves, one inlet (to which a filter canister is usually fitted) and one outlet. Unscrew and discard the filter canister and attach the gas hose to the inlet valve. Modern respirators have effective seals, often a softly inflated seal around the inside edge. The effectiveness of the seal can be tested by placing the hand, or any suitable thing, over the inlet valve of the fitted mask, and trying to breathe in. The masks are designed to remain in place during sleep and strenuous activity in heavily contaminated areas, and so the chance of dislodgement during the unconscious part of the procedure is likely to be much less. The total volume of the inert gas required would be considerably less, as the swept volume inside the fitted mask would be very much less than that inside a plastic bag.

 

[TiredHorse]

If I could go back and insert a FAQ at the beginning of the thread --as you say, it has grown Methuselahsticly long-- the number one question would be, "Can I use a mask instead of a bag?"

I have personally seen one failure here with a diving mask, heard several anecdotes of failures with various types of masks/respirators, and only heard of one success with a mask --a retrofitted scuba mask modified and used to ctb by an experienced scuba diver. You'd think it would be a straightforward exchange, but it simply isn't. I suspect this is due to 1) the volume in the bag serving as an instantly accessible reservoir of inert gas, for dilution of CO2, and 2) the effectiveness with which a bag is purged of air.

I won't say it can't be done, only that there seem to be proportionally more failures with masks than with bags.

 

[color_me_gone]

@Roger :
@TiredHorse is correct. I myself offered that exact same suggestion.
It is true that all the sanctioned death groups discourage a mask of any type,
and only recommend the bag. Using a mask is fraught with things that can go wrong.
It just is not worth it, so I'm sticking with a bag.

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Hi sorry I haven't read all this thread but is there any reason with helium you can't just lie down and after crushing bag just pull bag down over head without deep breath. I was thinking of taking sedatives and just fall asleep with it. Also will a helium tank go out of date at all. Thanks

 

[color_me_gone]

will a helium tank go out of date

No, but if your helium was for balloons, you need to check that it is pure.
Since 2015, balloon helium suppliers started mixing 20% air with it.
Idk about the falling asleep part, sounds risky, but a good way to overcome your SI.
Perhaps @TiredHorse can weigh in on that, he is our SS expert on this method.

 

[TiredHorse]

is there any reason with helium you can't just lie down and after crushing bag just pull bag down over head without deep breath.

I would guess that without that deep exhalation to get rid of much of the air in your lungs it will take considerably longer to reach unconsciousness and die.

When you take a breath, 1) not all the air in your lungs is exchanged for new air, and 2) not all the O2 in the air you breathe in will be used by your body, which means that a considerable reserve of O2 remains available in your lungs even in the "empty" period between exhalation and inhalation. This reserve is what you're trying to minimize with that final deep breathing and extra-deep exhalation, and it is my understanding that the calculations for the necessary amount of inert gas are predicated on minimizing that reserve.

Would you eventually die if you clear the bag of air (crush it), refill it with inert gas, and then pull the bag down without that final deep exhalation? Yes, of course. People who accidentally enter an inert gas-filled space and die don't empty their lungs ahead of time. BUT you will need a larger supply of inert gas to provide the necessary flushing away of CO2 both from the additional CO2 generated by the consumption of that reserve, and for the longer period of time it will take to exhaust the larger amount of O2 in your lungs. How much larger a supply I cannot say.

All that said, if you can provide yourself with a large enough supply of inert gas, your method --sedatives, and falling asleep in an inert gas-supplied exit bag-- doesn't sound too bad. As @color_me_gone observes, it might be one way to negate SI. Just be sure to fall asleep in a position where you can be sure the exit bag doesn't get displaced by any final unconscious movements of your head.

And to again echo color_me_gone, be wary of using balloon He. There's a good chance it is adulterated with air to an extent that makes it useless for inert gas CTB.

 

[cappuccinogirl]

I would guess that without that deep exhalation to get rid of much of the air in your lungs it will take considerably longer to reach unconsciousness and die.

When you take a breath, 1) not all the air in your lungs is exchanged for new air, and 2) not all the O2 in the air you breathe in will be used by your body, which means that a considerable reserve of O2 remains available in your lungs even in the "empty" period between exhalation and inhalation. This reserve is what you're trying to minimize with that final deep breathing and extra-deep exhalation, and it is my understanding that the calculations for the necessary amount of inert gas are predicated on minimizing that reserve.

Would you eventually die if you clear the bag of air (crush it), refill it with inert gas, and then pull the bag down without that final deep exhalation? Yes, of course. People who accidentally enter an inert gas-filled space and die don't empty their lungs ahead of time. BUT you will need a larger supply of inert gas to provide the necessary flushing away of CO2 both from the additional CO2 generated by the consumption of that reserve, and for the longer period of time it will take to exhaust the larger amount of O2 in your lungs. How much larger a supply I cannot say.

All that said, if you can provide yourself with a large enough supply of inert gas, your method --sedatives, and falling asleep in an inert gas-supplied exit bag-- doesn't sound too bad. As @color_me_gone observes, it might be one way to negate SI. Just be sure to fall asleep in a position where you can be sure the exit bag doesn't get displaced by any final unconscious movements of your head.

And to again echo color_me_gone, be wary of using balloon He. There's a good chance it is adulterated with air to an extent that makes it useless for inert gas CTB.

Hi Thanks very much for that. So you would probably need as big a tank as you can get or two of them maybe.

Also doesn't seem to say on helium bottle if pure or not. What do you do if it's not pure? Thanks

 

[TiredHorse]

Honestly, I don't know exactly how many liters of inert gas you would need (I'll let you figure out how many liters are in the bottles you intend to use, thus how many bottles you need). I don't know how to crunch the numbers for that situation.

Again, the math that appears here several times: with the typical protocol, 40 minutes to death x 15 Lpm flow of gas = 600L of inert gas.

You can turn to the All Knowing Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_volumes if you want to try and crunch numbers, but there's a lot of complex math vs. physiology that isn't shown on the Wiki page that I just don't know how to calculate.

However, after thinking about it for a while, the big problem that comes to mind is timing when you pull the bag down relative to when the sedatives kick in. I don't have any experience with sedatives, but judging accurately when you're close to slipping under, and while you still have coordination turning on the gas, filling the bag (it takes several minutes), and making ready to pull it into place, all timed so that you have minimal time between bag-ready and bag-down (all that time between bag-ready and bag-down, you're using gas at 15 Lpm), seems tricky.

I think you would need a lot of inert gas to give yourself enough time, while still coordinated, to do the last preparation, and then wait further until about to pass out to pull down the bag.

If I had to guess how to accomodate that "sedated eb" protocol, I would probably double the typical amount of gas, to have any confidence at all.

As for what to do if it's not pure He --you won't know it isn't pure until you don't die. I have no idea what the risks are of brain damage in a low-O2 atmosphere, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least some risk.

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Ok thanks. Can get 98% pure helium on amazon UK. Can't find out concentration of one ive got. Might have to change it to be safe aghh.
Hi Also is there any advantages to a argon nitrogen over helium if I can make sure that's pure. Got helium attachment already. Apologies for not reading all the thread. Thanks

 

[TiredHorse]

Also is there any advantages to a argon nitrogen over helium if I can make sure that's pure.

All three will work.

The advantages of each depend on how easy, cheap, and reliable your source is:

The original method used He because balloon-He was cheap and easy to obtain by the general public. It also dispersed quickly and left virtually no trace in an autopsy, making it suitable for assisted suicides, where the assistants risked legal prosecution if an autopsy revealed suicide. It has fallen out of favor because it can be difficult to ensure adequate purity from common sources, and reliably high-purity supplies can be expensive.

N2 seems to have become the new standard because it is the cheaper and more easily obtained alternative to He. It leaves somewhat more trace in an autopsy, but for our purposes that is inconsequential. I have read reports of some brewery supply N2 being air-adulterated, but when purchased from industrial suppliers (welding), or the patently "front company" Max Dog Brewing, it's reliably pure.

Ar is just as functional as N2 or He, and since it's typically only easily available from welding suppliers, quality is reliable due to the necessity of purity for welding. It leaves the most trace in an autopsy, since it is considerably heavier than air and will pool in the lungs rather than dispersing. It is more expensive than N2.

 

[Emabovary]

I will die in this way. Helium and exit bag. Just need to prepare everything

 

[planmd]

(Before you read this, sorry if my English is not perfect; I hope you get what I am trying to convey. I am not a native.)

I am doing it very soon, maybe in a couple of days. I am very worried as I have read about people going unconscious but then waking up after some minutes without knowing what had happened in the middle, sometimes in a different part of the room. I am afraid of getting unconscious but then waking up for some reason. Do you think it is very likely to happen? I have never tried yet, but I was hoping for it to work out perfectly the very first time so no rehearsals. I was going to use cable ties in my hands (I suppose I should adjust them very quickly after putting down the bag before passing out) and tie them to my belt. I do not know if I will have enough time for adjusting the bag around the neck and afterwards doing this before loosing consciousness; what are your thoughts?

Also, I was thinking about using duct tape or a different technique to hold my legs in place and not to move from the place...
I was also considering the best posture. I wanted to do it lying down on the bed, but I have read it is better to do it sitting. Maybe I could sit on the floor with my back on the bedside. I was planning to book a hotel room so I do not really know yet what I will find in the room.

Thanks a lot to all of you. This forum is being really helpful.

 

[DeepMind]

Also will a helium tank go out of date at all. Thanks

Helium won't age but you should check if any gas was lost over the years. The easiest way to do so is to weigh the gas tank. Of course, you have to know how much a new and full helium tank weighs. Sometimes shops provide this info on their shop page.

 

[DeepMind]

(Before you read this, sorry if my English is not perfect; I hope you get what I am trying to convey. I am not a native.)

I am doing it very soon, maybe in a couple of days. I am very worried as I have read about people going unconscious but then waking up after some minutes without knowing what had happened in the middle, sometimes in a different part of the room. I am afraid of getting unconscious but then waking up for some reason. Do you think it is very likely to happen? I have never tried yet, but I was hoping for it to work out perfectly the very first time so no rehearsals. I was going to use cable ties in my hands (I suppose I should adjust them very quickly after putting down the bag before passing out) and tie them to my belt. I do not know if I will have enough time for adjusting the bag around the neck and afterwards doing this before loosing consciousness; what are your thoughts?

Also, I was thinking about using duct tape or a different technique to hold my legs in place and not to move from the place...
I was also considering the best posture. I wanted to do it lying down on the bed, but I have read it is better to do it sitting. Maybe I could sit on the floor with my back on the bedside. I was planning to book a hotel room so I do not really know yet what I will find in the room.

Thanks a lot to all of you. This forum is being really helpful.

I also think that this forum is great. Booking a hotel room is a good idea. It decreases the burden for friends/family by bringing distance and it also reduces the chances of someone finding you at night.

The helium method is risky to some degree, since it requires you to create a helium athmosphere with a bag around you. So if you use a loose exit bag, you might tip over, the bag will loosen more and the helium might escape.

I'm no expert on this method but one might lie on the bed, use some big pillow for the head, to ensure that it is higher than the rest of the body, and then use the exit bag. The bed, hopefully king size, ensures that you don't tip over and the pillow will keep your head in place, while also ensuring that the exit bag is higher than the rest of your body. Otherwise the bathtub might be an alternative.

 

[Emabovary]

How to put hose on helium tank os what bothers me and than inside the bag?

 

[Pj.nuffield]

Hi guys I'm new here. Is it ok to post a picture of my bag for some constructive criticism?
What I've gone for is a heavier duty plastic bag rather than a cooking/roasting bag thinking it would be harder to puncture? & instead of elastic I've gone for heavy duty zip ties so there's little chance of escape.
As for placement of the hose,I was thinking of having it blowing straight at my nose/mouth? Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

 

[-L-]

instead of elastic I've gone for heavy duty zip ties so there's little chance of escape.

DO NOT USE HEAVY DUTY ZIP TIES INSTEAD OF ELASTIC!!!!!!

The c02 you exhale will not be able to escape the bag, and you will trigger the body's hypercapnic alarm due to the c02 buildup inside the bag..

You will end up tearing the bag off whether you like it or not, and could risk severe brain damage.

And if you can't tear the bag off for whatever reason, you risk the possibility of suffocating which would be very painful and not peaceful at all.

The reason a "snug" elastic is used is so the exhaled c02 can escape the bag. Don't trap it in the bag.


Edited to add: If you have concerns about escape or turning back, maybe your not in the right place.. When your ready you'll know it.. However using zip ties will only make your body want to forcibly escape, even if your mentally ready.

 

[Pj.nuffield]

DO NOT USE HEAVY DUTY ZIP TIES INSTEAD OF ELASTIC!!!!!!

The c02 you exhale will not be able to escape the bag, and you will trigger the body's hypercapnic alarm due to the c02 buildup inside the bag..

You will end up tearing the bag off whether you like it or not, and could risk severe brain damage.

And if you can't tear the bag off for whatever reason, you risk the possibility of suffocating which would be very painful and not peaceful at all.

The reason a "snug" elastic is used is so the exhaled c02 can escape the bag. Don't trap it in the bag.


Edited to add: If you have concerns about escape or turning back, maybe your not in the right place.. When your ready you'll know it.. However using zip ties will only make your body want to forcibly escape, even if your mentally ready.

Mmm. Maybe I should rethink the heavy duty gear?
With the thicker plastic & the duct tape I've used means the rim is pretty thick & crumpled like an accordion.
I test fitted it using thin nylon rope & when tied around my neck it's a little gappy.

 

[Roger]

If the elastic allows exhaled CO2 to escape, why does it not allow atmospheric air (containing oxygen) to get in ?

 

[pane]

If the elastic allows exhaled CO2 to escape, why does it not allow atmospheric air (containing oxygen) to get in ?

I think the reason for that is because of the nitrogen flowing into the exit bag. As best I recall the sequence of steps from the book Five Last Acts you put the exit bag on your head like a shower cap, let it fill with nitrogen, exhale as deeply and forcefully as you can to expel the remaining CO2 out of your lungs, then hold your breath while pulling the exit bag down over your head completely. Then sit back allow the process to unfold.

By allowing the exit bag to fill with nitrogen while it's on your head then pulling it down rapidly while holding your breath after exhaling, you're creating as much of an oxygen-free environment around your head inside the bag as possible from the start. Again that's how I remember it from Five Last Acts.

To expand on it a little further, the thing about the elastic (or shoelace with a toggle switch some people use) is that by leaving a small gap around the bag at neck level you're allowing the nitrogen to push out all remaining air/CO2 from the exit bag. The continuous flow of nitrogen into the bag from the tank is supposed to prevent any further O2 from entering the bag from outside. At least I think that's the idea.

 

[cappuccinogirl]

All three will work.

The advantages of each depend on how easy, cheap, and reliable your source is:

The original method used He because balloon-He was cheap and easy to obtain by the general public. It also dispersed quickly and left virtually no trace in an autopsy, making it suitable for assisted suicides, where the assistants risked legal prosecution if an autopsy revealed suicide. It has fallen out of favor because it can be difficult to ensure adequate purity from common sources, and reliably high-purity supplies can be expensive.

N2 seems to have become the new standard because it is the cheaper and more easily obtained alternative to He. It leaves somewhat more trace in an autopsy, but for our purposes that is inconsequential. I have read reports of some brewery supply N2 being air-adulterated, but when purchased from industrial suppliers (welding), or the patently "front company" Max Dog Brewing, it's reliably pure.

Ar is just as functional as N2 or He, and since it's typically only easily available from welding suppliers, quality is reliable due to the necessity of purity for welding. It leaves the most trace in an autopsy, since it is considerably heavier than air and will pool in the lungs rather than dispersing. It is more expensive than N2.

Thanks for that. Do you think it's generally listed on tank if it's pure helium or not? Can't find out what strength it is.
Just trying to read through the updated p pill ive found. Sounds like if I ordered nitrogen to be on safe side from German place it comes with all the right flow kit as well. Thanks for your help.

 

[Roger]

I don't contemplate this method, for myself, but I would have several questions if I did.

 

[pane]

Thanks for that. Do you think it's generally listed on tank if it's pure helium or not? Can't find out what strength it is.
Just trying to read through the updated p pill ive found. Sounds like if I ordered nitrogen to be on safe side from German place it comes with all the right flow kit as well. Thanks for your help.

The concentration or purity of the helium should be listed somewhere on the tank itself. Are you buying one of those party balloon kits or a tank of helium from an industrial supplier? If it's the latter you're much more likely to get helium that's 97-99% pure.

Then again if you buy a tank of nitrogen from an industrial supplier then you can be just about totally certain it's 97-99% pure.

 

[TiredHorse]

I think the reason for that is because of the nitrogen flowing into the exit bag. As best I recall the sequence of steps from the book Five Last Acts you put the exit bag on your head like a shower cap, let it fill with nitrogen, exhale as deeply and forcefully as you can to expel the remaining CO2 out of your lungs, then hold your breath while pulling the exit bag down over your head completely. Then sit back allow the process to unfold.

This --and the following info @pane posts-- is exactly right.

What you're doing when you set the flowmeter to 15 LPM is creating what's called a "positive pressure" system: due to the in-flowing N2, the atmospheric pressure within the bag is slightly higher than the ambient pressure, meaning that N2 will flow out past the elastic, carrying the CO2 with it, but air cannot come in. It's a basic pressure gradient: ambient air cannot push in against the higher pressure created by that 15 LPM of N2.

A side note to what @pane posted about pulling the bag down into place: if you wear glasses, as I do, take them off ahead of time. When you pull the bag down into place, you want to keep the hem of the bag as close against your face as possible, both to avoid releasing N2 and to minimize the amount of air you scoop into the bag as you pull it down. Glasses, I found, get in the way.

 

[Jinx]

I'm very uneasy about how likely it is to actually succeed with this method. In theory the experts say you're supposed to pass out within seconds/a few deep breaths. Maybe under perfect conditions? But in reality, there are failed attempts where people wait for several minutes without ever going unconscious. Or they pass out but wake up again shortly after. Maybe this is due to a faulty setup or user error where they didn't follow the steps closely enough to purge most of the air/c02 from the bag and their lungs.

I think my fear is sitting there waiting but nothing happens. Only experiencing unpleasant effects like nausea, headache, tingling, dizziness, but never fully passing out and succeeding. Or worse, passing out only to wake up/survive somehow but with severe brain damage.

 

[pane]

Tiredhorse,

Regarding the issue of eyeglasses, I recall reading in Five Last Acts or perhaps somewhere else that one could wear a baseball cap or some type hat with a soft, short brim. The original purpose was to keep the plastic exit bag off of one's face because several people reported that they found it annoying when doing "practice runs" and such a hat would also allow room for eyeglasses.