Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Jinx]

Yes, I own the Harbor Freight regulator. It's compatible with N2 --fits into the valve just fine-- but as has been shown in another thread on this site (can't remember where), the conversion factor between Ar and N2 is different for each manufacturer's gauge, so in practice any "conversion" becomes a SWAG: Scientific Wild-Assed Guess. I think it would have been fine had I not flubbed it due to SI. If/when I try again, I intend to kick the flow up to around an indicated 18 LPM and cross my fingers.

The hose barbs can come in different sizes, and you'll need to wait and see what the one is on the regulator you order, but the one on the Harbor Freight model is 1/4" (I just measured) and I just used 1/4" ID vinyl tubing from Home Depot or the hardware store (can't remember which).

I might go with the Harbor Freight one then. Thanks for measuring! It's cheap enough that I can experiment with fitting some tubing. If my setup fails, I'll possibly still have enough money left to attempt a different method. Did you need to use a hose clamp or anything to secure it or did it fit tightly enough on its own?

I really wish it was simple enough where you could buy a single package that included everything you needed. But I guess that would raise all kinds of legal issues, sigh. Max Dog has a U.S. kit for $330 which is pretty outrageous considering they're merely slapping their sticker on a modified $55 oxygen regulator. For that price it should come with a tank of nitrogen too. Not to mention there currently seems to be a 10 WEEK waiting list! I don't think I can stand to wait for months. I'm already really upset that I'm going to miss my originally planned deathday. The only real upside with their kit is added reassurance that the parts should fit as they're meant to.

I also remember reading a similar comment where someone was discussing flow rates comparing different gases but I can't remember who or what thread it was either unfortunately. It's a bit disconcerting if it varies by gauge. Although if Max Dog is actually using an O2 regulator maybe the difference in conversion is negligible? Your SWAG approach gave me a good laugh though

 

[TiredHorse]

Did you need to use a hose clamp or anything to secure it or did it fit tightly enough on its own?

No; it's a good snug fit. If you have trouble fitting the tubing to the barb, soak the end of the tubing in very hot water to soften it.

Max Dog has a U.S. kit for $330 which is pretty outrageous...

Yikes! Yes, that's pretty expensive, for just a regulator. I think I paid about $175 for everything, including the oven bags. And a 10 week waiting list is astonishing.

Although if Max Dog is actually using an O2 regulator maybe the difference in conversion is negligible?

I just don't know enough science to say with any confidence. Given that air is a combination of mostly N2 and about 21% O2, I would expect that flow rates would register as very close to the same. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will weigh in here, and perhaps provide a link to that other thread, with its discussion of conversion factors.

 

[jumpforrestjump]

@TiredHorse @Pj.nuffield thank you!

Do all regulators work for all kinds of gases? I am asking because i am looking at a few, which im not sure they are what we want, and each one has a different gas in its name. eg the one that says 'Blah blah Nitrogen regulator', would it work with Helium????

edit: to be specific i found this https://www.xtools.gr/εξαρτήματα-αν...έριο-argon-einhell-1576508-4006825156447.html which is the only one that has L/min on it (to the far right). 2 caveats though...

1. maximum it can give looks like it is 10L/min
2. it has ARGON gas at its title.

would it do the job??

edit2: also, what is your guys recommendation as the ostensible reason i need all this gear? i have made a few calls and they have asked for some reason that i really cannot fathom. and putting aside that, if i want to ask a friend or family member for info then its mandatory that i have an excuse. what is a good one?!?!

edit3: excuse me for break your balls. is this Amazon product ASIN B0711GQBJP good? it says CO2 argon at the title so im not sure. i spoke with someone and told me that on the regulators with 2 meters, the first shows the pressure inside the tank used, and the second the...flow(?) that goes out so this looks good. but has argon at the title? does that mean it only works for this gas?

 

[DeepMind]

I'm somewhat intentionally vague sorry. I don't really want to assist anyone, I just am telling you its a terrible idea.
I don't need to sight sources because I don't really care enough, I'm just some random asshole on the internet, so it doesn't really matter what I say, if your determined enough to try this that's your own problem / responsibility for seeking out reliable information.
You seem determined enough to try with argon though so who am I to stop you.

I will say though that I've had experience working with rooms that are filled with inert gas for electrical reasons to prevent electrical arcing and fires. If you had an entire room purged of oxygen and filled with a large volume of inert gas (like argon) maybe you'd be on to something..

However no matter what, I can't vouch for the idea of a bathtub.. Maybe if you got enough gas you could use a tent or even a sealed bathroom, if you had an adiquite way to let air escape, but I have a lot of doubts about a bathtub.
And no matter what you do I would still say that LN would be better.

I can't view some of your sources on here as NCBI blocks tor traffic.
But I would have to assume that a lot of what you've sighted focuses on industrial accidents hypoxic rooms, as I mentioned above.
I also can't really get any sources or facts on using a bathtub for this purpose, even if I cared enough or wanted to. Because so far it seems like there are no reported instances of this specific senerio ever happening. So you would be the first to try it.

Again I told you that liquid nitrogen would probably be your best bet for this very case. Its also easy to obtain, but thats all I'm going to say.

And as I already said you seem determined to try this, so who am I to tell you otherwise.
The burden of research for this falls on you.

Just don't come crying back here when you end up a brain dead potato.

For me, I'm going to stick with whats proven to reliably work.

"Just don't come crying back here when you end up a brain dead potato."

How would I come back here when I'm brain dead? I have the feeling that you have a personal dislike for the argon method but instead of bringing constructive criticism you stay very vague and like to insult other people? You worked with rooms filled with inert gas. How were these rooms filled and what principle is different from a bathtub? Then you say that tents are better. What is the difference between a tent and a foiled bathtub? There is none. You can use whatever foil you want and you can place it as you like.

I told you about the oxygen meter and still, you exclude it in your reply. The oxygen meter makes sure that there is little to no oxygen left in the bathtub. What is your opinion on this? How do you check for inert gases or oxygen in these rooms you were talking about?

I also found no sources for the proposed argon method but there are several articles about argon asphyxiation in forensic science journals. Of course, they only report about the inert gas and not the exact method but argon suicides have happened.

And for the last part, what is different between a bag and a bathtub, except that you need more inert gas for the latter since you create an inert gas atmosphere around your whole body and not just your head?

 

[Superfluous]

@DeepMind I've just looked back at your method, and was wondering if you have considered the real possibility of CO2 build up in the bath?

Whilst you are in the bath, all the O2 in your body will be converted into CO2 and expelled whilst breathing. Whilst I can't find a definitive answer on whether CO2 is more dense than Ar, it's molecular weight definitely is. Even a small increase in CO2 concentration (above the miniscule level present in air) will cause a hypercapnic response.

Don't know if this would work, but maybe the addition of a breathing tube to use for exhalation until you lose consciousness.

Edit: corrected heavier to more dense, added some clarity and a possible solution

 

[-L-]

"Just don't come crying back here when you end up a brain dead potato."

How would I come back here when I'm brain dead? I have the feeling that you have a personal dislike for the argon method but instead of bringing constructive criticism you stay very vague and like to insult other people? You worked with rooms filled with inert gas. How were these rooms filled and what principle is different from a bathtub? Then you say that tents are better. What is the difference between a tent and a foiled bathtub? There is none. You can use whatever foil you want and you can place it as you like.

I told you about the oxygen meter and still, you exclude it in your reply. The oxygen meter makes sure that there is little to no oxygen left in the bathtub. What is your opinion on this? How do you check for inert gases or oxygen in these rooms you were talking about?

I also found no sources for the proposed argon method but there are several articles about argon asphyxiation in forensic science journals. Of course, they only report about the inert gas and not the exact method but argon suicides have happened.

And for the last part, what is different between a bag and a bathtub, except that you need more inert gas for the latter since you create an inert gas atmosphere around your whole body and not just your head?

I ment that more as sarcasm.
But at the same time its a very real possibility with this. Or at the very least brain damage to varying degrees, depending on the circumstances.

As for everything else you said:
I am indifferent to the argon method, I know its been proven to work in an exit bag. So I really don't feel negatively about it, so don't make assumptions on what I like or dislike, about anything.

Any inert gas that does not cause irritation or trip the body's hypercapnic alarm should work for this task. There are documented cases of people even using propane for this task (although I also think that's ill advised for other reasons). There are also cases of people dying of asphyxiation from older fire suppression systems that used things like halon, or even argon.

I've just stated that your idea of using argon in a bathtub won't work very well.

Also consider how flimsy foil is... Just a thought... You may find a way to dislodge it......
As for oxygen meters, I own one they are neat, nothing more to say on that.

As for the rooms I worked with or should I say oversaw, during an internship. They had multiple safety measures in place, including having an air-lock type system on them.
I specifically make a point to say oversaw, because I never actually entered any of them (and most likely couldn't have even if I wanted to). I simply monitored some of the equipment inside of them from a remote location.
I will not go into any further detail on them as I don't want to give you any ideas, however I will say the gas they were using in those rooms was the same one mentioned in the thread I linked in a previous reply to you.


And as I already said, if you really want to and your sure... Go for it! (if its really what you want).
I just don't care enough to debate this with you any further.
MY method(s) are already sorted out, I am doing multiple things for redundancy, and that's all I care about at this point. YOUR methods are your responsibility. I'm personally all set, so it makes no difference what YOU do for yourself.

And for the record I was never insulting you.
Just because I said your idea of a method was a terrible idea, I never said you were terrible.

I don't feel the need nor do I owe you any proof on anything. Either take it or leave it. I just don't like to see people doing dumb things that may leave you worse off in the end.. I suppose to some extent I care about you.

Regardless of what happens for you I wish you nothing but good luck and peace no matter what you choose.
My concern comes from a place deep in my heart.

This is the last reply I'm giving on this matter, you know my thoughts and I have nothing more to say on this. I also will say again that I don't have anything against you so please try not to misconstrue what I'm saying, it is not an insult.
I don't have the time, energy, or patients, to debate or argue with people anymore.
I've already wasted too much time with this. Life is far too short.

Again best of luck. I hope things work out for you no matter what.

 

[NextSummer]

Hey folks! I think the argon idea is interesting, and I find it brave that people want to experiment. At the end, this is how new suicide methods are being develloped. We have already talked about the dangers. There is an argon-topic on it's own and we should discuss argon there.

 

[TiredHorse]

Do all regulators work for all kinds of gases?

Short answer is no, but there is some interchangeability. You need an inert gas regulator to fit into the valve stem of an inert gas cylinder. The connections are deliberately different from those of reactive gasses --O2, propane, acetylene, etc.-- so that you don't accidentally hook a propane tank to your Ar hose. That said, the same regulator that is labled Ar/CO2 will fit and work with an N2 cylinder --in fact that's what I have. An Ar/CO2 regulator will not give you an accurate flow rate for N2, given the different densities of the gasses, but you can compensate for that with a bit of careful guesswork.

maximum it can give looks like it is 10L/min

That won't work. You need a minimum of 15Lpm for an exit bag, and if it is an Ar-intended regulator, you'll want to kick the flow rate up a bit to compensate for using N2 in it: I set mine for 18Lpm.

what is your guys recommendation as the ostensible reason i need all this gear?

N2 can be used in brewing beer, for filling performance bicycle tires, and for welding. It can also be used in science experiments when an anaerobic atmosphere is needed. I sometimes use it for headspacing partial cans of expensive paint, so that the paint doesn't oxidize and skin over.

@-L- , @DeepMind --@NextSummer is right: a better place for your discussion on Ar and the best way to use it would be in the Argon thread. Regardless of why each of you favor or disdain the Deathtub method, it isn't a productive tangent in a thread intended for discussing a different method entirely. For those seeking info on it, this tangent will soon be lost here, so it would be more useful to the forum if it were discussed someplace where it is more visible for its own merits.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

How did you manage to open it finally? I am unable, I am using all my strength.... Thanks so much!

Sorry, I just saw your post. I had to call out a handyman! I can't believe my 'wine sparging' story was that convincing but it seemed to work. When asked for details I said it was my imaginary partner's hobby. I didn't say the word 'imaginary' out loud.. I'm probably too ill now to do this and not raise suspicion. Incidentally I bought a second tank and it opened very easily.

 

[DeepMind]

@DeepMind I've just looked back at your method, and was wondering if you have considered the real possibility of CO2 build up in the bath?

Whilst you are in the bath, all the O2 in your body will be converted into CO2 and expelled whilst breathing. Whilst I can't find a definitive answer on whether CO2 is more dense than Ar, it's molecular weight definitely is. Even a small increase in CO2 concentration (above the miniscule level present in air) will cause a hypercapnic response.

Don't know if this would work, but maybe the addition of a breathing tube to use for exhalation until you lose consciousness.

Edit: corrected heavier to more dense, added some clarity and a possible solution

This is an aspect worth paying attention to. Not breathing into the bathtub while it fills could be important. Getting close to the argon release valve could prevent getting problems with the exhaled CO2 shortly before ctb. The released should be enough to replace it.

Would be really cool to get some xenon, it's a lot heavier than air. I'll switch to the argon thread from now on.

Mass per unit volume at sea level and 15 degrees C:

Helium 0.1664 kgm−³
Nitrogen 1.165 kgm−³

Air 1.225 kgm−³

Argon 1.661 kgm−³
Carbon dioxide 1.842 kgm−³
Xenon 5.86 kgm−³

 

[color_me_gone]

@DeepMind
Your body will exhale CO2 until you are dead.
There is a lot of reserve O2 already in the blood of the entire body.
That O2 will continue to metabolize, producing CO2 as a by-product, even while you are breathing in Argon.
This is why you don't die right away.

Since CO2 is heavier than Argon, it will not float to the top, rather, it will sink to the bottom.
There is a good chance the CO2 could reach your nose, and you inhale.
That would trigger your hypercapnic alarm.

 

[planmd]

Hi all! I am proving my equipment and have a question about the regulator. Before opening the gas cylinder, it is supposed to mark 0 both in the inlet and the delivery gauges, even if I set the flow at 20 liters per minute, right? I mean, I know until I do not open the valve of the gas bottle, the pressure in the first part of the regulator will be at 0, then at 200 bars if the cylinder is actually full; however, in the second gauge, I cannot adjust the flow since the handle does not move, but I do not know if it will move once the gas start to flow or if there is something not working with my regulator.

Also, I would like to ask you if it is enough to use my hands to connect the regulator to the bottle or if I should use a wrench to secure it. I know too much strength applied is not good so I should not force it, but I do not know if my hands are enough for securing it.

Thanks a lot!

 

[TiredHorse]

What you assume is correct: until you open the cylinder valve, both gauges will read zero. Once you open the valve, the pressure gauge will read (presumably) 200 bar, and you can then set the flowmeter to whatever flow you prefer.

You'll want to use a wrench to connect the regulator to the cylinder.

 

[planmd]

What you assume is correct: until you open the cylinder valve, both gauges will read zero. Once you open the valve, the pressure gauge will read (presumably) 200 bar, and you can then set the flowmeter to whatever flow you prefer.

You'll want to use a wrench to connect the regulator to the cylinder.

Thanks, @TiredHorse . Always helpful

 

[jumpforrestjump]

Short answer is no, but there is some interchangeability. You need an inert gas regulator to fit into the valve stem of an inert gas cylinder. The connections are deliberately different from those of reactive gasses --O2, propane, acetylene, etc.-- so that you don't accidentally hook a propane tank to your Ar hose. That said, the same regulator that is labled Ar/CO2 will fit and work with an N2 cylinder --in fact that's what I have. An Ar/CO2 regulator will not give you an accurate flow rate for N2, given the different densities of the gasses, but you can compensate for that with a bit of careful guesswork.

That won't work. You need a minimum of 15Lpm for an exit bag, and if it is an Ar-intended regulator, you'll want to kick the flow rate up a bit to compensate for using N2 in it: I set mine for 18Lpm.

Thank you for your answer, i really appreciate it man.

So, could this -> Amazon product ASIN B07MNVTJZT be great for the job? I think it fits the description perfectly. It says, and i quote, that:

1. Pressure regulator turns high pressure gas into low pressure gas, and keep the output gas pressure and flow rate stable.
2. Perfect for All TIG and MIG Welding Application. Precise Gas Metering, fits Argon, Helium, Nitrogen, And Argon/CO2 Mixed Gas
3. Output Flow Is Adjustable From 1-25L/min.

 

[TiredHorse]

For some reason I can't see an image, but from the description it sounds like it ticks all the boxes.

 

[jumpforrestjump]

For some reason I can't see an image, but from the description it sounds like it ticks all the boxes.

Oh ok. I am posting the link again (remove the space i created) just to be more certain since, well, it's a pretty important thing for me not to ef this up lol!

Here it is: https://www.am azon.co.uk/Regulator-Nitrogen-Welding-Flowmeter-Pressure/dp/B07MNVTJZT/ref=as_sl_pc_tf_til?tag=&linkCode=w00&linkId=&creativeASIN=B07MNVTJZT

 

[TiredHorse]

My one concern is that while it will almost certainly fit into an industrial helium tank's valve, it is calibrated for Ar/CO2, so setting flow rate will be an even wilder guess than it would be when using an Ar flowmeter for N2.

I would feel a lot more comfortable giving the regulator a thumbs-up if you were using N2. I just don't know how accurate the flowmeter would be with that wide a discrepancy between the gasses' weights.

 

[jumpforrestjump]

I would feel a lot more comfortable giving the regulator a thumbs-up if you were using N2. I just don't know how accurate the flowmeter would be with that wide a discrepancy between the gasses' weights.

Since it is pretty hard to find a good regulator and this one seems good, i can go with N2. The store i would buy Helium from, also sells N2 tanks. Is it the same though? I have followed many guides about the procedure with Helium, and if i go with N2 will definitely look into it for details, but what's the tl;dr version?

 

[TiredHorse]

TL;DR version: N2 is the exact same eb/ig system as with He, with the same efficacy, and with less chance of the gas being adulterated by air.

Long version: He was used originally because it was so easily accessible for the layman --through party supply shops, for balloons-- but when balloon He companies heard that it was being used for suicide they started adulterating their He with air so that it wouldn't be lethal. People intending suicide then shifted to N2: it can be more difficult to acquire because you need to buy it from an industrial supplier, and the tanks are not standardized so you need to do some research as to what size tank you need, but it is reliably sold in a pure form and it uses the exact same proven protocol as with He.

 

[Pj.nuffield]

So here's my setup. Thanks to the reply on my original comment my bag is close to betty spec. My air flowmeter may fall into the "swag" category but it will be closer to 20lpm & with a bigger bottle than suggested I'm thinking it should even out?
I'm open to constructive criticism & or ideas,questions,discussion etc

 

[TiredHorse]

I can't figure out your flowmeter, but the bag and the gas look fine.

 

[RememberWhatUCameFor]

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/attachments/3240378-0-jpg.3848/


does this even work with argon?

in opposite to helium argon is heavier then air and will most likely sink down and leave the bag?

 

[TiredHorse]

It should work with argon. The elastic band is snug enough around your brow to adequately contain gas, as demonstrated by the initial inflation of the bag. Some leaks out, of course, but the inflow of 15 LPM is much greater than the leakage. And once the bag is in place around your face, you want leakage: that's what carries away the CO2.

 

[RememberWhatUCameFor]

It should work with argon. The elastic band is snug enough around your brow to adequately contain gas, as demonstrated by the initial inflation of the bag. Some leaks out, of course, but the inflow of 15 LPM is much greater than the leakage. And once the bag is in place around your face, you want leakage: that's what carries away the CO2.

okay thank you

has someone tried this with argon already?

 

[RememberWhatUCameFor]

You will need to keep the inert gas flowing at 15 liters per minute (Lpm) for 40 minutes to be confident of ending your life —in other words, you'll need a minimum of 600 liters of inert gas.

is this 600 liter right?

when i look around most cylinders only seem to contain 20l

and when i google argon 600 liter this shows up:

This product is no longer available.

This product is no longer available.

m.alibaba.com

 

[TiredHorse]

is this 600 liter right?

You will need 600L of gas.

However, cylinder sizes are based on how many liters of water they will hold, not how many liters of gas. Water cannot be compressed, so a 20L cylinder will hold only 20L of water, while its compressed gas capacity depends entirely on how heavily the gas is compressed --it might contain 20L of gas, if the gas isn't compressed at all, or it might hold 20,000L of gas (an exaggeration, of course) if the gas is compressed to the density of the Sun!

This is apparently one of the most confusing and frustrating elements of creating an eb/ig apparatus: choosing a cylinder size. There are no reliably standard cylinder sizes, largely because different gas companies want to use proprietary sizes for their own inventory control. I can tell you that in the US, a 20cf cylinder will work, but beyond that you'll need to wade through the thread to see what other forum members have learned about gas cylinders in their own regions. It is a subject that has come up many times in the months I've been here, and there has been information posted here, but it has yet to be collated in a dedicated thread on cylinder size.

However, the only genuinely reliable way to know how many liters of gas you'd be getting, in that 20L cylinder, is to call and ask the supplier.

 

[TiredHorse]

How about having the tube enter the bag at the top?

You would do better to have the tube enter at the bottom of the bag, but have the tip of it taped at the top of the bag. Same effect, but it doesn't require a hole to be punched into the top of the bag.

 

[omoidarui]

Why do you need a steady flow of inert gas into the bag for forty minutes? I could understand it with Argon. But with Helium which rises, once the bag is inflated and becomes oxygen-depleted, as long as there are no leaks why must there be a continual flow into the bag?

Also Nitschke recommends two cylinders if you're not going to use a regulator, to be on the safe side, but how does this make a difference to the duration that the cylinders will dispense for if both are initiated at the same time? Sorry if obvious or has been asked

 

[bilamajina]

@omoidarui, once the bag is pulled down the bag will start to fill with CO2 as a consequence of your breathing. The steady flow of an inert gas from the top of the bag pushes the CO2 out the bottom of the bag.

Without the flow of inert gas the level of CO2 will build up. The build-up will eventually trigger a reaction called the Hypercapnic (high carbon dioxide) Alarm Response. This alarm will cause you to pull the bag from your head.

It is important the neck of the bag is loose around your neck. If the neck is not loose the process of pushing the CO2 out of the bag will be impeded.