Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[TiredHorse]

Why do you need a steady flow of inert gas into the bag for forty minutes? I could understand it with Argon. But with Helium which rises, once the bag is inflated and becomes oxygen-depleted, as long as there are no leaks why must there be a continual flow into the bag?

Part of the reason the method works is because a steady flow of inert gas flushes away the CO2 you are purging from your system as you exhale. It isn't just about removing the air; if the CO2 lingers, it will trigger your hypercapnic alarm and even unconscious you will tear the bag off your head. You need those 15 LPM to continuously flush away the CO2. Keeping the flow going for 40 minutes is enough margin to make sure you are no longer exhaling, thus no longer need to flush away CO2.

Also Nitschke recommends two cylinders if you're not going to use a regulator, to be on the safe side, but how does this make a difference to the duration that the cylinders will dispense for if both are initiated at the same time?

I'm afraid I haven't read Nitschke, so I don't know.

ETA: @bilamajina beat me to it.

 

[omoidarui]

oh ok, I wondered if that was the case but wasn't sure, because I thought the initial deep breathing was supposed to rid your lungs of CO2.

By Nitschke I mean the PPH, Philip Nitschke is the author

 

[TiredHorse]

oh ok, I wondered if that was the case but wasn't sure, because I thought the initial deep breathing was supposed to rid your lungs of CO2.

The initial deep breathing mostly rids your lungs of unused air, with a bit more than the usual exhalation's worth of CO2. You will continue to exhale CO2 for as lung as your lungs continue to function, because there is still CO2 in your bloodstream that needs to be removed.

 

[jumpforrestjump]

Hello again, does anyone have a link for a video where they show the connection between the regulator and the tank? in both the suicide tutorials i've seen they don't use one. actually it could be a normal video that shows how you connect the two devices.

i found this one -> but the tank i will probably go with (N2 is 5 times more expensive than He for some reason so He it is) has a different mechanism. btw this is not the exact tank, the one i will choose is bigger but the mechanism is the same.

 

[saw_him]

That's a good thought. Yes, maybe that could be their way of wanting to know exactly what is going on.

In my case it seems unlikely as people in my country are far from well versed about mental health and nitrogen being used to take one's life. I guess I will tell him that I am not concerned about the pressure, and see where that takes me.

did you order the nitrogen tank? if yes, can you please mail me the supplier details at [email protected] , i would greatly appreciate your help

 

[bilamajina]

@jumpforrestjump, regulators and flow meters are designed/calibrated to provide an accurate flow of a particular type of gas. While the regulator/flow-meter will connect to the cylinder you will not get the correct LPM (litres per minute) due to the different densities of the gases.

 

[Righttodie]

Anyone has any idea how loud or if any at all noise is made with this method ? I need something quiet

 

[bilamajina]

@Righttodie, in this post, @TiredHorse talks about noise and an idea to counter it.

 

[Righttodie]

@Righttodie, in this post, @TiredHorse talks about noise and an idea to counter it.

Read it. Thanks. Helps understand it better. I have focused my attention towards hanging though

did you order the nitrogen tank? if yes, can you please mail me the supplier details at [email protected] , i would greatly appreciate your help

I didn't go through with this method. I am going to go by hanging from a gym chin up frame. It seems better because the noise from the gas cylinder might make it difficult.

I suggest you try indiamart.com. they have lots of sellers for that there. Let me know your progress

 

[Crematedashes]

How reliable is the exit bag on its own? How reliable is it compared to say, full suspension hanging, in terms of death rate? Let's say your survival instinct isn't a problem.

 

[RememberWhatUCameFor]

haha wrote the local gas company an email and asked how much gas (nitrogen / argon) they have in their 10l tanks - no answer

 

[Kiri1988]

To Use:

If I found all this on the internet, I'm sure you can, but maybe these will address a few of the questions I've encountered here.

Start by sitting upright in a chair. My understanding is that you should not be lying down, and that you want to be confident you won't fall over when you black out, as any final twitching with your head rumpling the bag against whatever you are lying on might displace the bag enough to allow the inert gas to escape.

I have heard fears of convulsions with this method, but I have also heard —more plausibly— that accounts of convulsions are more accurately associated with sedated-suffocation (a predecessor to this inert gas technique) rather than to inert gas asphyxiation. However, a few final twitches are possible as the electrical activity in the brain fades, and it would be tragic to have the attempt ruined by not taking the simple precaution of being sitting up and stable.

To feel confident that any post-mortem twitching will not knock the cylinder over and jerk the tube out of the exit bag, secure the cylinder to the leg of your chair. I use a piece of webbing; duct tape or a length of cord would work.

If you wear glasses, as I do, remove them. They will be a hindrance when you need to pull the gas-filled bag down over your face, and will allow space for air to remain in the bag.

To pre-fit the drawcord, pull the bag down over your head and face. Tighten the elastic drawcord around your neck so that it's snug, but not cinched tight. You should be able to fit your fingers under it.

Lift the bag up off your face so that the drawcord is now around your temples and just above your eyebrows, below your ears and around the back of your neck, like a shower cap. After adjusting the drawcord to your neck, it will feel tight around your head; this is good.

Scrunch ALL the air out of the bag. The more air you can remove, the faster the inert gas will take effect. If you ignore this step, your attempt will likely fail.

At this point the end of the hose should be inside the bag. I have long hair, so I secure the end of the hose at the back of my head with a hair elastic. Others have taped the end of the hose securely to the inside of the bag with more micropore tape.

If you have long hair, like I do, make sure it is bundled up inside the exit bag, not sticking out under the drawcord.

With the regulator closed, open the valve of the cylinder. There will be a sharp hiss as the regulator fills.

Open the regulator and adjust the flow of gas to 15Lpm. The gas flowing through the tube was surprisingly loud to me, and a bit distracting. Someone here kindly recommended earplugs, which I may do on my next attempt. Or I may listen to music; I doubt earbud wires will displace the drawcord.

The bag will gradually inflate above your head. It will take a minute or two to reach full inflation.

As the bag is inflating, take deep breaths, exhaling fully, to purge as much CO2 as possible from the depths of your lungs.

When the bag is inflated and you're ready, exhale as completely as possible and hold your lungs empty. Slide the bag down over your face and settle the elastic comfortably around your neck. Finally, inhale as deeply as possible; breathe slowly and deeply.

I cant believe that you really need 600 Liters.20 L of N2 for about 500Dollar must be enough.or not?

 

[Alex R]

You will need to keep the inert gas flowing at 15 liters per minute (Lpm) for 40 minutes to be confident of ending your life —in other words, you'll need a minimum of 600 liters of inert gas.

How to organize it, if the majority of cylinders are sold with a capacity of 40 liters?

 

[bilamajina]

@Kiri1988, in a previous post @TiredHorse said:
"cylinder sizes are based on how many liters of water they will hold, not how many liters of gas. Water cannot be compressed, so a 20L cylinder will hold only 20L of water, while its compressed gas capacity depends entirely on how heavily the gas is compressed", e.g. 200Bar/2900PSI etc.

The PPH March 2019 suggests a 2L @ 200Bar/2900PSI N2 cylinder. Chapter 5 of the PPH March 2019 covers this method in detail, and is posted here.

NB: regulators and flow meters are designed/calibrated to provide an accurate flow of a particular type of gas. A regulator/flow-meter calibrated to nitrogen (N2) is required to get the correct LPM (litres per minute) due to the different densities of gases. A regulator/flow-meter designed for a different gas will not provide the correct LPM.

 

[Kiri1988]

@Kiri1988, in a previous post @TiredHorse said:
"cylinder sizes are based on how many liters of water they will hold, not how many liters of gas. Water cannot be compressed, so a 20L cylinder will hold only 20L of water, while its compressed gas capacity depends entirely on how heavily the gas is compressed", e.g. 200Bar/2900PSI etc.

The PPH March 2019 suggests a 2L @ 200Bar/2900PSI N2 cylinder. Chapter 5 of the PPH March 2019 covers this method in detail, and is posted here.

NB: regulators and flow meters are designed/calibrated to provide an accurate flow of a particular type of gas. A regulator/flow-meter calibrated to nitrogen (N2) is required to get the correct LPM (litres per minute) due to the different densities of gases. A regulator/flow-meter designed for a different gas will not provide the correct LPM.

Thank you very much for this Information!!!

 

[RememberWhatUCameFor]

Thank you very much for this Information!!!

hornbach is selling argon and nitrogen in germany but its hard to find out how much gas in their tank

i wrote them an email and asked how much argon is in their 20l tank and they replied with 20l of compressed argon gas

didnt help me at all

 

[Elek]

You should ask for the pressure, then it's just some simple math: in a gas pV=constant, so volume(atmosph) = (pressure(cylinder)*Volume(cylinder)) / pressure(atmosph)

For example, if p(c)=200bar, V(c)=20L, p(a)=1atm=1,013bar then V(a)=(20L*200bar)/1,013bar=more or less 4000L

 

[TiredHorse]

You should ask for the pressure, then it's just some simple math: in a gas pV=constant, so volume(atmosph) = (pressure(cylinder)*Volume(cylinder)) / pressure(atmosph)

For example, if p(c)=200bar, V(c)=20L, p(a)=1atm=1,013bar then V(a)=(20L*200bar)/1,013bar=more or less 400L

Thank you, @Elek. This post should be highlighted in neon for the entire thread. Genuinely useful --imperative, even-- information for those confused about gas cylinder sizes.

 

[Kiri1988]

hornbach is selling argon and nitrogen in germany but its hard to find out how much gas in their tank

i wrote them an email and asked how much argon is in their 20l tank and they replied with 20l of compressed argon gas

didnt help me at all

A nice woman from "max brewing dog nitrogen" wrote me that 20L of nitrogen are enough for an Exit.

Hello again, does anyone have a link for a video where they show the connection between the regulator and the tank? in both the suicide tutorials i've seen they don't use one. actually it could be a normal video that shows how you connect the two devices.

i found this one -> but the tank i will probably go with (N2 is 5 times more expensive than He for some reason so He it is) has a different mechanism. btw this is not the exact tank, the one i will choose is bigger but the mechanism is the same.

For Helium baloon Tanks theres no need for any Regulator.but u need to find 99,999% purity ones

 

[stbdchick]

This thread has been amazingly helpful; thanks to all who've comtributed.

I ordered a full tank from cyberweld so there's no worry explaining why you want nitrogen. I am disabled and could barely lift it, so it would not have worked for me to go buy it locally.

I got my flow regulator off Amazon; that was easy also.

My difficulty was in finding a hose, which involved multiple questions on Amazon and two trips to Lowes before I got that sorted. At Lowes, there was the pretense of, "I don't know what it's for; husband just said to get a hose to fit this regulator." In retrospect, I ought to have bought a regulator that came with a hose in the first place.

I played with everything to make sure I understood how it worked, but have only made one attempt.

For me, there's two levels of panic. The first was just the evening of, when I found myself getting more and more shaky all evening. I kept calming myself by reminding myself I didn't HAVE to do this. But honestly, I never really got past the anxiety.

I took a bunch of beta-blockers before trying as per The Final Exit video. This did slow the palpitations, but didn't touch the anxiety.

During the actual attempt, I was on the verge of blacking out when I panicked and removed the bag.

For me, there's three changes I plan for next time, first I have adrenal insufficiency which means I need to take additional hydrocortisone to supress an adrenaline reaction when stressed.

Second, I think a couple oxycodone will help also; to not reach panic during the attempt, it will help to not be anxious all evening prior.

Third, I plan to hyperventilate before bringing the bag down, as I am uncertain exactly how loose the bag needs to be to expel CO2, so I need to minimize the CO2 available.

Also, it took me over a week to recover, likely not from the attempt itself, but the stress associated with it. I had a bad bout of CHF; took a lot of Lasix and some lymphapressing to fix. I doubt this is relevant to anyone else though; I'm extremely ill in the first place. Given that nitrogen isn't toxic and the dose of beta-blockers was around 1% of the LD50, I assume it's just me being severely ill already.

This whole SI thing is not what I envisioned; I want to think of this as just going off to sleep. It's apparently not going to be like that, so it's a matter of both minimizing and pushing through the panic.

Honestly, I think it looks much more peaceful for the pig in the video; he doesn't know it's coming. I suspect if I knew I would die in my sleep, I'd have insomnia!

 

[JWL]

You should ask for the pressure, then it's just some simple math: in a gas pV=constant, so volume(atmosph) = (pressure(cylinder)*Volume(cylinder)) / pressure(atmosph)

For example, if p(c)=200bar, V(c)=20L, p(a)=1atm=1,013bar then V(a)=(20L*200bar)/1,013bar=more or less 4000L

Simple maths, eh???

 

[stbdchick]

Simple maths, eh???

That is simple. The full equation is PV=nRT

 

[JWL]

That is simple. The full equation is PV=nRT

I never got past long division. Things are always simple if you know them.

 

[RememberWhatUCameFor]

You should ask for the pressure, then it's just some simple math: in a gas pV=constant, so volume(atmosph) = (pressure(cylinder)*Volume(cylinder)) / pressure(atmosph)

For example, if p(c)=200bar, V(c)=20L, p(a)=1atm=1,013bar then V(a)=(20L*200bar)/1,013bar=more or less 4000L

i have the following examples:

Argon 4.6, 10 L Füllung bei HORNBACH kaufen

Argon 4.6, 10 L Füllung und weitere Sortimente aus dem Bereich Gas. Jetzt informieren über Preise und Verfügbarkeit im HORNBACH Markt.

www.hornbach.de

stats:

pressure: 200bar (at 15 degree celcius)

size: 2,1m³

filling = volume? = 10l


10l*200bar/1,013bar = 1,974.3l

right?

 

[Elek]

Yes, if they provide the size in m^3 you can avoid the calculation because 1m^3=1000L

 

[Nodscene]

Hi, if anyone doesn't mind this will be a partial intro thread. I'm also grateful to have finally found a place where this can be talked about freely and not only that but get advice and opinions. The second part will involve my plans to use Argon in a sealed environment (not using exit bag due to failure rate).

So I've been suicidal since about 14 and I'm 48 now. Obviously I've had major depression plus 3 sleep disorders (insomnia, non-restorative sleep or what's probably called chronic fatigue now, and circadian rhythm disorder) and chronic pain. I won't go into all the details and how much hell I've been through in my life or it would be a mega-thread on its own

I've tried suicide twice and failed both times but for different reasons. The first was at age 17 (give or take) where I had planned to take an overdose of one of my parents medications. Thankfully my mom was an ER nurse and she had a medical book which listed most medications along with their side effects, overdose information etc. I tend to research extensively so if I do something, I do it right the first time.

As per my luck when the day finally came and I knew they were going to be away long enough I went to get the meds and for whatever reason they were gone. That was my first so called attempt.

Fast forward a few decades and I finally found a job that I could hold for more than 2 months (due to exhaustion and not being able to wake up in the mornings no matter how many alarms I set or how far away from the bed I put some of them). After 10 years the culmination of my health issues made it that i had to quit the job because even though I was able to set my own hours I couldn't physically do anything anymore. To keep it simple I couldn't even lay in bed and handle incoming tech support calls which was my last ditch effort at being able to continue working.

This leads to my second attempt. I decided to take a vacation and then use all my fentanyl patches to do the deed. Unfortunately putting on 15 75mcg patches wasn't enough to do the job. After everything I read and hearing all the dangers about its potency I was pretty surprised. Looking back on it I probably should have chewed and then swallowed them instead.

Now this has to be my last attempt and it must succeed no matter what. After researching for years/months/hours for the best way (sadly the best ways are basically impossible to get or have other restrictions) I've decide that using Argon will give me the highest chance for success.

I still have some questions and there may be flaws in my plan so I'm hoping if anyone has advice or is good at math and can help it would be greatly appreciated.

As I'm sure everyone knows Ar is the perfect choice as it's easily available, not too expensive, and can lead to a peaceful demise of done correctly. The bag method leaves too many chances for things to go wrong in my opinion so I've ruled that out and will either use my car or a tent. In either case I will seal it as much as possible. In the case of a tent I have one that has a separate room where I'd use 4 o4 6mm plastic that they use to seal houses along with Tuck tape (which is also air tight).

Now I'm not 100% sure if I want the space to be completely airtight as I'd like any available air to be able to escape so I could reach as close to a 100% Ar "atmosphere" as possible. If I try to make a tiny opening it would be at the highest point as Ar is heavier than air.

My biggest questions are the amount of Ar I'd need and the flow rate. I can get a large 80cu/ft tank for "cheap" Now let's say I'm going to use a car... something like a Kia Soul which has about that amount of cu/ft in total volume. I'm not sure if that rating on the Ar tank is the compressed amount or not. I will probably get 2 of them to be safe.

The flow meter rate is also a concern. I need enough to do the job but can't run out as i don't want to end up a vegetable either.

I do have a backup of sorts. Since I do have severe chronic pain issues along with sleeping issues so I am prescribed strong pain meds, sleeping pills, plus muscle relaxers. Due to the depression I also saved enough proper antidepressants to achieve "the" cocktail. Come to think about it I technically have probably 3 avenues of succeeding. The third being respiratory failure from the pain meds, sleeping pills and muscle relaxers.

What I am concentrating on though is the Ar method. I'll go to sleep and never wake up. Does everyone think a single 80cu/ft tank is enough for a car (I hear people taking about using a small 20l bottle (not sure if there is any difference in the 2 measuring systems). I used to be a welder a long time ago and I believe the 80cu/ft tanks are about 4ft or 5ft tall. I also need to know the flow rate as that will be just as crucial. My biggest problem is I suck at math and while I saw that formula that someone posted....well honestly it doesn't help much.

I think the best course of action would be to have the tanks turned on for about 15min or so before entering the car so the gas has had enough time to build up. Optimally I'd like to be in the car, listen to music and just fade away. If there is one thing in life I deserve after everything I've been through its that.

Sorry for the long post. I should probably also visit the venting area of this site :)

Thanks to anyone who's responded (or will respond) and while im sorry to see that there are so many people in this kind of situation, I'm pleased to see there is finally somewhere where we can talk and help each other out without getting banned or told to call a stupid 800 number.

I think that's way more than enough for now. I just wanted to get this posted before I had the energy to read a lot of the site (or at least way more than I already have).

 

[color_me_gone]

While using a car sounds inviting, they are notoriously NOT airtight. I would not recommend.

You mention that an exit bag is too risky, but using an unproven method sounds even riskier to me.

Do you know that Freon (a chlorofluorocarbon) is heavier than air?
So how does Freon get to the stratosphere to destroy the ozone layer?
The fact of the matter is that weather turbulence takes the Freon to the stratosphere,
and the Freon sinks so slowly, that it never gets a chance to settle back to the ground.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/chlorofluorocarbons-cfcs/

The densities of Argon and air are so close, that I think it is risky to expect them to separate reliably.
Just the slightest bit of turbulence will keep them mixed, causing problems in purging the space completely of air (oxygen).

 

[Nodscene]

I was thinking about that as well about the car. Although with enough Argon you could still get the percentages high enough to kill you I'm sure. Id still rather come up with a different solution than an exit bag if possible. I've read too many reports of it failing so that has me concerned. Mostly due to people accidentally removing it themselves.

It's easy enough to make an airtight room (they do it in houses all the time ie vapour barrier) so doing that isn't a problem. Even if there is air, the most important part is the percentage of Argon as that's what's going to kill you.

I can't see how 2 80cu/ft Argon containers couldn't increase the levels in almost any small enclosed space to lethal levels. My problem is the math and flow rate.

I guess I should realize there is no 100% sure way unless it's painful or you are jumping from a height to a solid surface. Then again if I could get and use enough heroin that would be pretty straightforward. I can't get any and wouldn't know what to do with it if I had it haha (about the only drug I haven't done are injectables). Same with a weapon surprisingly.

I should feel more confident as I will also be doing the antidepressant method as well. It's just the updated version still says it could take up to 24hrs. Just not going to fail this time as that's not an option.

 

[Sirius]

ONE BIG QUESTION:: I have an old school Exit Hood bought through a now defunct FEN associate. It is darn sturdy and has elastic sown into the neck area..So no drawstring. This was used for the helium exit tech. Can I use this for N2???????

 

[dreamsofdestruction]

Can I use this for N2???????

Yes, can't think of a reason why it would make a difference.