Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Jenna]

I still have a little trouble understanding. Are we better doing the nitrogen tank in the car? Also when we become unconscious will we be trying to rip the bag off?

 

[TiredHorse]

I still have a little trouble understanding. Are we better doing the nitrogen tank in the car?

No, don't try to turn your car into a N2 tent; it will take too much N2 to fill the car and adequately displace the air. The reason a bag is used is to create a small space for the N2 to adequately fill.

Unless you have a very large supply of N2, and an air-tight car, turning your car into a super-sized exit bag won't work.

Also when we become unconscious will we be trying to rip the bag off?

There are conflicting accounts. A few say that some people have tried to remove the eb once they fall unconscious. Most say that people do not try to tear the bag away. I personally believe I (and you) will not claw the bag away.

Many accounts report some "twitching" after falling unconscious, which I can believe: the fading electrical activity of a dying brain can cause minor spasms. This is why it's better to position yourself so that if this twitching causes you to slump over, any unconscious rubbing your head against the wall won't displace the bag. Likewise, you don't want to being lying down for the same reason: the twitching could make you rub your head against the pillow hard enough to displace the bag.

My speculation --and this is entirely speculation!-- is that the accounts of convulsions and trying to tear the bag away come from three things:

1) Pro-lifers trying to slander a peaceful way to ctb and deter those who would try it.

2) Poorly constructed or poorly managed apparatus leading to inadequate flushing of CO2 from the exit bag, which causes the person's hypercapnic alarm to trip --which does lead to them trying to claw their way out of the bag. This is why a flow of 15Lpm, and an elastic drawcord to allow the CO2 to be flushed, is so important.

3) People trying to ctb by suffocating themselves with a bag alone, not using inert gas. I have come across accounts where early exit bags were used without inert gas: the person attempting to ctb would take a heavy dose of sedatives and then don the exit bag just as they would if they were using inert gas. They would hold the bag open with their hands, working against the elastic drawcord, so that when the sedatives took effect and they fell unconscious, their hands would fall away and the elastic would close off the bag around their face. They would then suffocate while under sedation. Theoretically the sedation would overcome the hypercapnic alarm and allow them to suffocate, but I can see how misjudging the dose of sedative could easily lead to failure when they were not unconscious enough to prevent themselves from tearing away the bag.

 

[Arak]

Personally I find the exit bag method somewhat combersome and convoluted.

You need the right gas, then you need a bag that fits the requirements (not just standard, but what works for you) and a flow regulator, the latter possibly depending on the type of gas. A typically, the volume of gas supplied is small.
It should be more simple. More complicated, more things can go wrong.

 

[Shewaitsforme]

Personally I find the exit bag method somewhat combersome and convoluted.

You need the right gas, then you need a bag that fits the requirements (not just standard, but what works for you) and a flow regulator, the latter possibly depending on the type of gas. A typically, the volume of gas supplied is small.
It should be more simple. More complicated, more things can go wrong.

No more complicated than the people trying to get the right combination to OD, or right anti sickness routine, getting the sweet spot to hang. With every method something can go wrong as we have heard many times on here. Even problems sourcing N eventhough that method seems to have a very high success rate. You construct and exit bag, displace the oxygen and breathe the inert gas. The bag used is a turjey roastibg bag, not difficult to source. In the uk a 5l is enought but ive gone for 10 as that was the smallest i coukd source near me and allows for more gas just to make sure, in the US 22cf, some are using 40cf. The method is only difficult if you make it, there is plenty of stuff on here, exit videos just got to actually take some time to look as with all other methods if you really want it to work

 

[Jodes]

I used to think a bigger bag would be better since it dilutes the CO2?

Worried now, hoped not to feel claustrophobic as well

 

[GerMann]

Please watch out. When the plastic bag get touched your mouth and nose because of deep breathing, you have no positiv effect of the innert gas. Some people get failed because of this.

 

[Jodes]

Please watch out. When the plastic bag get touched your mouth and nose because of deep breathing, you have no positiv effect of the innert gas. Some people get failed because of this.

I'll use a thick plastic bag or something then to shape it with enough space? thanks

 

[Arak]

@GerMann ,

I believe you. Thanks for pointing this out. Another pitfall. But if I may ask, where or how did you learn this?

 

[TiredHorse]

I used to think a bigger bag would be better since it dilutes the CO2?

It's a balance between having a small enough bag to easily fill with inert gas and a large enough bag that it doesn't crowd your face. I've found that my turkey-sized bag seems to strike a good balance. (Yes, me the turkey in a turkey-roasting bag does seem appropriate, doesn't it?)

Worried now, hoped not to feel claustrophobic as well

I don't have any trouble, but I also do drills, just having it over my face, filled with air, for a few minutes at a time to get used to it. It has actually been easier on the times I've failed to ctb: during a drill, when it's just air, the bag fogs up, but when I'm flushing it with N2 the steady flow of gas carries away the condensation and the bag remains clear.

When the plastic bag get touched your mouth and nose because of deep breathing, you have no positiv effect of the innert gas. Some people get failed because of this.

That is an excellent point that I wouldn't have considered: if the bag closes off your nose and mouth it ceases to be a situation where you're breathing an inert atmosphere and becomes one where you're being stifled/suffocated. Yes, that would likely result in a failed attempt.

Countering that risk would demand both a large enough bag to keep it away from your face and a high enough flow of gas to hold the bag inflated.

 

[Jodes]

Good point. The gas flow only has to be greater than the total leaks , since the gas breathed in is more or less exactly equally exhaled in volume each time.

That is, for the bag to be kept inflated, anyway.

It doesn't tell us about how well the CO2 is forced out

 

[Jenna]

getting

It's a balance between having a small enough bag to easily fill with inert gas and a large enough bag that it doesn't crowd your face. I've found that my turkey-sized bag seems to strike a good balance. (Yes, me the turkey in a turkey-roasting bag does seem appropriate, doesn't it?)

I don't have any trouble, but I also do drills, just having it over my face, filled with air, for a few minutes at a time to get used to it. It has actually been easier on the times I've failed to ctb: during a drill, when it's just air, the bag fogs up, but when I'm flushing it with N2 the steady flow of gas carries away the condensation and the bag remains clear.

I have been doing drills too. How long do you leave it on? I'm also worried about the bag bunching up but then if we weren't found for several hours I'm sure that part wouldn't be a problem.

 

[TiredHorse]

I have been doing drills too. How long do you leave it on? I'm also worried about the bag bunching up but then if we weren't found for several hours I'm sure that part wouldn't be a problem.

It depends on the drill.

Just getting used to having the bag over my head, so that it feels natural, I'll leave it on until my hypercapnic alarm starts to jangle --which takes a surprisingly long time. Several minutes? Enough for me to twiddle my thumbs, get bored, go to the bathroom, return to the living room, get more bored...

If I'm practicing for that critical <exhale-bag down-deep inhale> first step, that only takes a moment, but I'll run that process several times in a row to try and make the process second nature for when I'm doing it with the N2 flowing.

You need to remember, though: I've failed three times, so don't take my drill process as any guarantee. This is just my latest attempt to mentally prepare properly. My equipment is all good, it's just my mind that's sabotaging me. I hope others here will add to this thread if their own mental preparations specific to the eb+ig equipment seem to be doing them some good.

As for bag collapse, if the elastic is fairly snug and you've got the gas flowing at the recommended 15Lpm the bag shouldn't collapse until the tank runs empty. The recommended minimum size tank --20cf here in the US-- holds 600L and will take approximately 40 minutes to empty. By that time the bus should be long gone. BUT, your concern is a good emphasis of how important it is to get both a large enough tank and the right flow rate.

 

[Jodes]

Last time, I don't know what wen't wrong for sure (I devised my own ridiculous exit bag that was bound to fail.)(KISS).

From reports on the net, I think oxygen got in. But it still doesn't make sense to me. Anyway, I didnt feel like I passed out, yet there is no way I can know for sure. But time dilation that would be called apparently. I did feel light headed and stuff though. Also perhaps I didn't wait long enough. In got bored and assumed total failure, not even knowing if I'd passed out.

 

[Jodes]

It depends on the drill.

Just getting used to having the bag over my head, so that it feels natural, I'll leave it on until my hypercapnic alarm starts to jangle --which takes a surprisingly long time. Several minutes? Enough for me to twiddle my thumbs, get bored, go to the bathroom, return to the living room, get more bored...

If I'm practicing for that critical <exhale-bag down-deep inhale> first step, that only takes a moment, but I'll run that process several times in a row to try and make the process second nature for when I'm doing it with the N2 flowing.

You need to remember, though: I've failed three times, so don't take my drill process as any guarantee. This is just my latest attempt to mentally prepare properly. My equipment is all good, it's just my mind that's sabotaging me. I hope others here will add to this thread if their own mental preparations specific to the eb+ig equipment seem to be doing them some good.

As for bag collapse, if the elastic is fairly snug and you've got the gas flowing at the recommended 15Lpm the bag shouldn't collapse until the tank runs empty. The recommended minimum size tank --20cf here in the US-- holds 600L and will take approximately 40 minutes to empty. By that time the bus should be long gone. BUT, your concern is a good emphasis of how important it is to get both a large enough tank and the right flow rate.

So would you call them "successful failures" since your'e back in one piece? I'm worried about the bad failures

 

[TiredHorse]

In as much as a failure can be successful, I suppose so. I didn't waste too much of my materials to prevent another try, I wasn't discovered, I may have learned something, and I emerged without any physical harm. I am able to try again as soon as I am emotionally ready, and I am physically hale enough for day to day life until then.

Short of some miraculous near-death epiphany that reveals the secret to Profound and Joyous Life and makes ctb unneccessary, I suppose that's about the best that can be expected.

 

[Kdawg2018]

I saw this videi online where a woman did a project on suicide design for her masters degree and being pro-choice, one design she had for exit bag included a visor built inside the bag, it seemed to function where the visor kept the bag from sticking to your nose and mouth. Another design was an exit bag for 2 adults to share, example, a couple wants to pass together, and it went over the 2 heads, and it was connected in the middle

 

[TiredHorse]

I saw this videi online where a woman did a project on suicide design for her masters degree and being pro-choice, one design she had for exit bag included a visor built inside the bag, it seemed to function where the visor kept the bag from sticking to your nose and mouth. Another design was an exit bag for 2 adults to share, example, a couple wants to pass together, and it went over the 2 heads, and it was connected in the middle

Any chance you could post a link? I haven't any idea how she would have managed either a visor or a "tandem" bag, but I know I'd like to have that visor, and as for the tandem... There was a time my beloved and I might have chosen that route.

 

[Jodes]

Ugh...I might have some trouble getting a good 8L tank into play. Wish I could collect up mutiple small disposables and tie them in to the bag but works out too expensive, and jeez, all the pipes.

 

[Kdawg2018]

Any chance you could post a link? I haven't any idea how she would have managed either a visor or a "tandem" bag, but I know I'd like to have that visor, and as for the tandem... There was a time my beloved and I might have chosen that route.

I will see if I can find the link, I found it online a few weeks ago, it was some college students project...

 

[Kdawg2018]

Any chance you could post a link? I haven't any idea how she would have managed either a visor or a "tandem" bag, but I know I'd like to have that visor, and as for the tandem... There was a time my beloved and I might have chosen that route.

https://productsofdesign.sva.edu/blog/masters-thesis-sincerely

Check that site, there should be a couple videos on there, super interesting to me

 

[Kdawg2018]

P.S. I just found a song about the exit bag - check out Self Deliverance by Keelie - the album name is Exit Bag

 

[Jodes]

P.S. I just found a song about the exit bag - check out Self Deliverance by Keelie - the album name is Exit Bag

Not all that appropriate for thus thread?

 

[Jodes]

super interesting to me

Well, that's.... super. I'm gphooe it's not for some morbid reason cos that's how it comes across

 

[Kdawg2018]

Not all that appropriate for thus thread?

This thread is about exit bags so...

 

[Jodes]

This thread is about exit bags so...

Trolling? Great place. Go back to harassing people less vulnerable. Think you can do that?

 

[TiredHorse]

Easy on, ladies and gents. We're all here because we're thinking of EBs, one way or another.

https://productsofdesign.sva.edu/blog/masters-thesis-sincerely

Check that site, there should be a couple videos on there, super interesting to me

@Kdawg2018, that's a very good site. Thank you.

Especially interesting to me is that while the "tandem" eb is meant for inert gas asphyxiation, judging by the text the eb with the visor isn't an inert gas asphyxiation eb, it's the "old style" approach of heavily-sedated suffocation.

 

[Kdawg2018]

Easy on, ladies and gents. We're all here because we're thinking of EBs, one way or another.


@Kdawg2018, that's a very good site. Thank you.

Especially interesting to me is that while the "tandem" eb is meant for inert gas asphyxiation, judging by the text the eb with the visor isn't an inert gas asphyxiation eb, it's the "old style" approach of heavily-sedated suffocation.

Do you think you could just put a hose inside the visor one?

 

[TiredHorse]

Maybe I didn't look at it closely enough, but the one with the visor doesn't appear to have a top, just a second elastic band to go around your brow --it's more an exit sleeve than an exit bag. Since a major element of using an eb is to first squish all the air out, then inflate it with an inert gas, and only then pull it down over your face, the design shown would appear to be a mechanism intended more to prevent the refreshing of air than the creation of an anoxic atmosphere.

In other words, it's meant to help you use up a small amount of existing air inside the "bag" than to replace the air with an inert gas atmosphere.

If I understand correctly from what reading I've done on the internet, this approach --heavily sedated suffocation-- is an ancestor of inert gas asphyxiation. It relies on a heavy dose of the less-fatal sedation drugs common today, now that the older, more-fatal barbituate sedations are no longer so readily available.

Tangent: If I had to guess, one line of practice for a peaceful exit evolved thus:

1) An overdose of readily available barbituate sleeping pills provided fatal sedation. (This became the ideal of today: N.)
2) When less-fatal benzodiazepines replaced barbituates, the exiteer donned an exit bag to die by suffocation, using a heavy dose of benzos for sedation deep enough to overpower their hypercapnic alarm.
3) Someone realized that inert gas would remove the frustating hypercapnic alarm from the equation, rendering sedation unneccessary, so readily available balloon helium was used to inflate the exit bag.
4) Party supply companies began to adulterate their He with air, making He unreliable, and users of eb/ig technique changed to N2 or Ar.

 

[Kdawg2018]

I haven't attempted with my exit bag, but the main concern I have is trying to take it off. I'm wondering if most people use a sleeping pill with the Nitrogen and exit bag, like taking a sleeping pill right before using your bag, or if the pill take 30 min to work, then taking it 25 min before using the bag. I wish I could get some N, but that would be hard for me to get, a different sleeping pill might be easier

 

[TiredHorse]

I haven't attempted with my exit bag, but the main concern I have is trying to take it off.

I can tell you only that I have three times been at the edge of blacking out and removed my eb --but it was not a panic response, exactly. It's difficult to explain, but it was as though I was two people, and one of them said, "no, not today," took command of my body, and removed the bag over the howling objections of the other. It was intensely frustrating, I can assure you!

I have considered using a sleeping pill as you suggest, to dull down my reactions to the eb or to the entire process, and I think it might work. The significant difficulty would be judging that margin between being capable of setting the process in play and being incapable of interfering with your intent to ctb. I doubt it actually takes very long to black out --perhaps a minute?-- it only feel like years when I'm spun-up and emotional. That's a fine margin between when you need to be adequately competant and dexterous to get the gas flowing and the bag properly over your head, and when you're adequately dulled that you can't reverse the process.

The reason I have not used such a sedative is entirely for personal philosophy: if I can't end my life in full command of my decision-making facilities, perhaps I should be reconsidering my choice to ctb. But that's just me, and I may yet abandon that affectation if my need becomes desperate.