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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
...when breathing Helium human doesn't generate any new CO2, so we shouldn't expect CO2 to rise over time, right?
The exhaled CO2 is being released from the bloodstream, where it has been generated by metabolism from air inhaled prior to the change to inert gas. So while yes, the CO2 concentration in the inert gas will gradually drop, much of that CO2 is the byproduct of metabolism that will be continuing until death. I think the 15Lpm figure may perhaps be higher than needed, but realistically, I consider it the lower threshold for confidence in success.
Also a very minor data point, while I was testing setup... [...] It doesn't seem too suprising if 25 seconds were enough to get unconscious.
That is an interesting data point, and I do not contest that it is worth considering. My concern is that a "test run" of any method, prior to ctb, when you know you are not intending/as at risk of death, reliably produces more optimistic results than during a "for real" attempt. Survival Instinct plays merry hell with allowing any method to work as it is intended, and I suspect such deep breaths as you took may be very difficult to replicate when the time comes to ctb. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just that from my own experience, that figure of 25 seconds is very optimistic.

As with anything, your mileage may vary.

Again, yours is an excellent post. Thank you very much for supplying the material information you felt comfortable disclosing. Every little bit helps.
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
I failed a few months ago using Balloon helium and an exit bag .
I didn't use a flow meter and I think it was too loose round the neck and air cdame in ..
I passed out almost immediately but came to about 30 mins later ,disorientated,headache ...
I found out balloon helium s 97 % pure , contaminated. So not sure why I failed
Better with N or ar
If I had to guess, I would say the problem was due to unregulated flow. I agree that your chances will be better with a commercial N2 or Ar cylinder and a more precise regulator/flowmeter.

That's an especially interesting account of your post-attempt experience, too, with your disorientation and headache.
 
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Adrian

Member
Dec 24, 2018
7
The exhaled CO2 is being released from the bloodstream, where it has been generated by metabolism from air inhaled prior to the change to inert gas.

I see, my understanding of how breathing works was too simplistic, and I didn't realize some CO2 (or C) is stored in the body from previous breaths. I guess this is why it is valuable to have second person to take a look at numbers :)
 
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Adrian

Member
Dec 24, 2018
7
Apparently I can't edit my posts after some time, so here is a new one with pictures of the assembled pipeline (a few posts earlier I described this setup in more detail).

1 2 3 4

Almost everything is ready, just a few problems remaining (likely I won't bother fixing them):
  1. Connection around ball valve is leaking. The leak seems to be audible, but I can't feel the flow with fingers, so must be small, and might be tolerable if it is much smaller in amount than the useful flow. Might be issue with incompatible fitting (BSPP/BSPT/NPT, why couldn't they make just one standard), or valve itself is not suitable for gases thus not tight enough. I will experiment with different valves, or maybe just ditch that valve altogether, and will use tank valve as a way to start/stop the flow. Duct tape may also work, though is more hassle to assemble/disassemble.
  2. Hose might be too short. Longer one is on the way, but this one may do.
  3. Flowmeter has measurable range of 10-40 liters per minute (despite website saying 0-40), so with 20 liters per minute helium flow it shows something around 10 liters (since it is calibrated for Argon/CO2), and it is on lower edge of meassureable range. Flowmeter with smaller range may be better, or this will have to do.
  4. All the experiments drain gas surprisingly quickly. Now I have only about 850 standard liters remaining in the tank (seeing as input pressure is 170 bar, and trusting the tank has 5 liters volume)

After some consideration, I decided to share links to the components needed (use your own research nevertheless):
  1. Gas tank: your local supplier with at least 600 standard liters, and CGA 580 fitting (most tanks are like this, except disposable baloon filling ones, and BOC Genie). NOTE: industrial tanks with proper fitting are not disposable, so you are renting them and are supposed to return them after use. Disposable ones on the other hand do not have standard fittings, and can only fill balloons.
  2. Pressure regulator - ensure that regulator acceptable input pressure is not lower than tank pressure.
  3. Flowmeter - note accepted input pressure of flowmeter and set it on regulator.
  4. Inert hose
  5. Ball valve (optional), needs to match BSP 3/8'', as this is what other referenced components are standartized on
It might be that this item is doing what TiredHorse suggested in initial post (i.e. you can attach it to tank without pressure regulator upstream, and it will control both pressure and flow), but I have no guarantees, and theoretical reading about gas doesn't quite talk about pieces of equipment like this.

This seems to be pretty useful general info on how to fit things together (note: they use needle valve instead of flowmeter)

I would also be much grateful if someone could verify the following calculations:
  1. We have flowmeter that is calibrated for Ar/CO2
  2. However we want to measure Helium flow with it
  3. Consulting this, this and this we get that conversion factor between Ar/CO2 (specific gravity is 1.45) vs helium (specific gravity is 0.137) is 3.25, hence if we want 24 lpm of helium flow, flowmeter that was calibrated for Ar/CO2 should be showing 7.38 lpm. On the contrary, if we fail to account for difference in gases, and set 15 lpm on that flowmeter, we'll get 49 lpm of helium flow, which would be too much.
 
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Buddyluv19

Experienced
Dec 13, 2018
272
The only possibility that I can think of is that I still had co2 in my lungs when I fastened the bag over my head and inhaled.

The PPH instructs to spend 1 to 2 minutes hyperventalating in an attempt to get as much CO2 out as possible. Did you do that? Just asking because there are obviously a lot of variables here.
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
The PPH instructs to spend 1 to 2 minutes hyperventalating in an attempt to get as much CO2 out as possible. Did you do that? Just asking because there are obviously a lot of variables here.
I can't speak for BA81, but I tried to do that during my attempts. Not sure how effective I was in really hyperventilating --it did feel like I was doing it right-- but it didn't overcome the immediate difficulty I had, which was the fast, shallow breathing brought on by extreme stress/anxiety when I pulled the bag down.
 
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BA81

BA81

Student
Dec 21, 2018
126
The PPH instructs to spend 1 to 2 minutes hyperventalating in an attempt to get as much CO2 out as possible. Did you do that? Just asking because there are obviously a lot of variables here.

No, I did not. I exhaled until I felt dizzy and thought that would be adequate, obviously I was wrong.

Even though I have read through the PPH I didn't thoroughly consider every step as I thought I had a reasonable grasp of the process and thought it would be easy to accomplish.

After receiving responses to my previous posts I realised that my previous failures were mainly due to my survival instinct. I felt panicked by having the bag over my head for even short periods of time (less than a minute).

Over the last couple of days I have increased my tolerance by practicing with just a bag over my head (without gas). While practicing I realised that there were times when I would panick almost immediately after placing the bag over my head but now I am very comfortable and do not panick at all. I can keep the bag over my head even up until the point I start to feel like I might blackout.

I have had to delay this process but hope to attempt again tomorrow.
 
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Fathead70

Fathead70

Now you see me, Now you don’t
Dec 12, 2018
19
Man I tell you I am either a fuckimg dip shit of I have forgotten how to use this sight. It seems like shit has changed man. I had to make a new account because the other 2 got fucked uonsine how. I'm ready for the CO2 challenge. Just gotta get a canister and mask. I'm thinking beer making will be my best chance . The regulator is what Fucks me up. Need to find out where to find this . Any ideas . Sorry my texting tonight is so shitty. S little whisky and it's like texting and driving.
Wow sorry guys . That's must have been one of those forgotten nights. I don't remember posting. Well I don't remember mispelling so many words. Don't mix benzodiazepines and alcohol folks. Lol
 
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Buddyluv19

Experienced
Dec 13, 2018
272
I can't speak for BA81, but I tried to do that during my attempts. Not sure how effective I was in really hyperventilating --it did feel like I was doing it right-- but it didn't overcome the immediate difficulty I had, which was the fast, shallow breathing brought on by extreme stress/anxiety when I pulled the bag down.

Thank you for the response.
 
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Adrian

Member
Dec 24, 2018
7
Unsuccessful attempt. 20 lpm, helium, no leaks.

Was a bit agitated before the act. Emptied the bag while having it partially over the head, exhaled, paused breathing, turned the gas on, put the bag fully on, started breathing. Bag was small (35x45cm), so there was a bit of sticking of the bag to mouth/nose, but it only happened if I take a really deep breath, and did not cause panic.

However there wasn't any effect at all. I waited several minutes, without feeling anything, then turned off the gas and put the bag off. The only aftereffect is slight darkness in vision (I wasn't noticing it while in the bag, perhaps because it was obstructing view). Spent about 100 standard liters of gas on this.

Will try again with larger bag and deeper breaths.
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
Unsuccessful attempt. 20 lpm, helium, no leaks.

Was a bit agitated before the act. Emptied the bag while having it partially over the head, exhaled, paused breathing, turned the gas on, put the bag fully on, started breathing. Bag was small (35x45cm), so there was a bit of sticking of the bag to mouth/nose, but it only happened if I take a really deep breath, and did not cause panic.

However there wasn't any effect at all. I waited several minutes, without feeling anything, then turned off the gas and put the bag off. The only aftereffect is slight darkness in vision (I wasn't noticing it while in the bag, perhaps because it was obstructing view). Spent about 100 standard liters of gas on this.

Will try again with larger bag and deeper breaths.
This is both distressing and puzzling. I have no idea how to troubleshoot it.

I'm assuming you again had your stopwatch running ("I waited several minutes"), in which case I would have expected that even breathing with shallow respirations you would have experienced a complete tidal exchange.

I am so very sorry. I have no answers. If you come up with possible solutions, I think we would all very much welcome your observations and approach for a more successful attempt.
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549
Unsuccessful attempt. 20 lpm, helium, no leaks.

Was a bit agitated before the act. Emptied the bag while having it partially over the head, exhaled, paused breathing, turned the gas on, put the bag fully on, started breathing. Bag was small (35x45cm), so there was a bit of sticking of the bag to mouth/nose, but it only happened if I take a really deep breath, and did not cause panic.

However there wasn't any effect at all. I waited several minutes, without feeling anything, then turned off the gas and put the bag off. The only aftereffect is slight darkness in vision (I wasn't noticing it while in the bag, perhaps because it was obstructing view). Spent about 100 standard liters of gas on this.

Will try again with larger bag and deeper breaths.

In a prior post you mention that your balloon gas is pure helium; how do you know this?

This is distressing and unnerving. Am sorry it didn't work for you and I too have no observations on this failure, unless your helium wasn't pure.
 
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Buddyluv19

Experienced
Dec 13, 2018
272
First of all, many thanks to @TiredHorse and @Adrian for the detailed technical information on this thread.

Regarding the question of 'gas purity' - this has plagued me as well. I need to do more research on this. If I find anything useful, I'll post it.
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
Regarding the question of 'gas purity' - this has plagued me as well. I need to do more research on this. If I find anything useful, I'll post it.
The only thing I am confident about with gas purity is that purchasing gas intended for welding should guarantee no air/O2 contamination: the inert gas is specifically intended to shield the welding bead from oxidization --a stream of inert gas is directed over the hot metal-- so it must be free from air in order to work. I'm sure there are slip-ups in the gas production process, just because slip-ups happen, but the intent is to sell industrially pure gas (laboratory grade is a different matter), and so the product must be commercially reliable.

I cannot speak to the purity of N2 intended for brewers, or He intended for party balloon use. I know nothing about the former (I've heard rumors it isn't always pure N2, but those are only rumors), and the latter became notoriously unreliable for air contamination after the use of He in exit bags became common knowledge and the part supply industry took steps to reduce their liability by diluting their He with air. He is also becoming expensive as worldwide supply diminishes, so if a party supply company can dilute their He, it means higher profits; thus I would be suspicious of any party supply He.

Something I have not done, but which may work as a basic pre-attempt test of gas purity:

There are numerous YouTube videos of people deep-inhaling He out of a balloon and passing out for a moment, with no residual effects besides their friends mocking them. Could a field-expedient test for gas purity --N2, Ar, or He-- be done by inflating a large-ish balloon, hyperventilating, and then inhaling from the balloon?

1) If the gas is pure, the tester should at least experience a grey-out. If impure, the air contamination may(?) prevent blackout.

2) Given that it is only one large breath, and that the tester's blackout out will then cause them to relax and release the balloon, it shouldn't result in death.

3) Since it would be a reliably non-fatal test, it shouldn't trip anyone's SI, and the theoretical ideal of an initial complete breath of inert gas should be simulatable without any of the shallow breathing that plagues an actual, stressful, adrenaline-charged attempt.

I have no idea if that test would be adequate, but I'm going to sit and think about it for a while, then maybe try and find somewhere to buy balloons.
 
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color_me_gone

color_me_gone

Sun is rising
Dec 27, 2018
970
Hi TiredHorse and everyone else following this thread.
I'm new to the website, and left a post on the new member's thread if you care to read.
I am following this thread because I had high hopes for inert gas, but after a partial read, not so sure.
I have some things to share and questions to ask, but don't want to clutter the thread with SOS.
So I will study the thread thoroughly before making my next post. I'm just checking in for now.
BTW, I find this website and thread to be full of genuine and friendly people who actually care about you.
Such a stark contrast to the rest of the web (and world).
Could this be an inherent trait of people who have to eventually ctb?
Bye, c_m_g
 
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Buddyluv19

Experienced
Dec 13, 2018
272
The only thing I am confident about with gas purity is that purchasing gas intended for welding should guarantee no air/O2 contamination: the inert gas is specifically intended to shield the welding bead from oxidization --a stream of inert gas is directed over the hot metal-- so it must be free from air in order to work. I'm sure there are slip-ups in the gas production process, just because slip-ups happen, but the intent is to sell industrially pure gas

Thanks @TiredHorse. My research indicates that what you report here is true - at least in the US where industrial quality for gasses is held to a high standard for welding (as you mention) And other manufacturing/industrial processes. So, as you state, as long as the gas is obtained from a reputable 'commercial' dealer it should meet standards for purity.

Of course, as you mention, there can always be a slip-up; however, this should be extremely rare - at least in the US where strict standards are in place (no idea about standards in other countries).

The PPH does mention a method of 'detecting oxygen' by purchasing an oxygen detector - there is a section dedicated to this. This seems like overkill to me, but it's an option if one is really worried about purity. I'd have to look into 02 detectors that would fit the regulator.
 
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dyingtodie

Student
Nov 29, 2018
115
@color_me_gone
"BTW, I find this website and thread to be full of genuine and friendly people who actually care about you.
Such a stark contrast to the rest of the web (and world).
Could this be an inherent trait of people who have to eventually ctb?"




Yes. I think so. I'm a little bummed that one local HE supplier isn't selling HE except for medical purposes, ya know, for people who REALLY need it, lol! Luckily though, another supplier has HE, unluckily, I have to pay $225 for the tank :( Which is fine, as it's one of my last credit card purchases. But, I'm starting to feel selfish about using such a precious noble gas that is apparently in short worldwide supply. And Nitrogen seems heavy, but I'll research it further...I was psyched on the lightness of Helium! I think I'm just going to keep practicing the tourniquet method with a silk scarf and a metal rod. Knot tying is not my strong suit. Simple, cheap, elegant. No unnatural gases involved at the crucial transition moment. Carotid compression seems like a more 'natural' death. I worry about SI (survival instinct, not self-injury...why are we using the same acronym for both?)...but in a few 'dress rehearsels' I've felt how quickly I could pass out from blood flow restriction. I just need to be damn sure it holds in place when I fully tighten the scarf, that's my chief concern. Plus, I don't want to have a change of heart, and be driving around with a tank of helium indefinitely...which I might not use if I decide to ctb camping in the forest or something. Just sharing some thoughts, and something to keep in mind in case HE supply dwindles in your area. Perhaps buy a tank sooner than later as an insurance policy, or research nitrogen or argon.
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
And Nitrogen seems heavy, but I'll research it further...
N2 is very close to the same weight as air, seeing as it makes up 78.09%. Ar is somewhat heavier, but not so much so that I would hesitate to use it --it is, after all, .93% of air.

There is nothing that makes He a better choice than N2 or Ar. The good reputation He got for having the advantage of being lighter than air was that in cases of assisted suicide, once the bag was removed the He would (in theory) be light enough to escape from the deceased's lungs. There would then be no trace of the suicide to appear in an autopsy and implicate those who had assisted the suicide. It was a precaution to keep the assistants safe from legal prosecution.

Since we are very obviously comitting suicide, that concern is no longer a factor.
(survival instinct, not self-injury...why are we using the same acronym for both?)
Good question! Maybe we should shift to HSI, for "Human Survival Instinct"?
 
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color_me_gone

color_me_gone

Sun is rising
Dec 27, 2018
970
I too, am concerned about the issue of the distinct differences in the densities of the gases involved.
For comparison purposes:
Helium 0.166
Nitrogen 1.165
Air 1.205
Argon 1.661
Carbon dioxide 1.842
These numbers were acquired from the web.
They are all in the same units of measure under the same set of conditions.
So they should be good for comparison purposes.
Notice the stark difference between He and the rest of the gases.
If you have ever dealt a mix of water and motor oil, you know quickly they separate.
That's because they have a significant difference in densities.
If you mix a spoonful of water base paint into a bucket of water,
it could take days for that paint to settle to the bottom,
because the density difference is tiny.
Intuition tells me the same holds true for gases.
N2 will not be as efficient as He in separating and pushing CO2 out the bottom of the bag.
Ar will be far worse.
Here is a website which paints a rosy picture for helium.
It is from the early 2000s, when this method was in its heyday. (before He/air mix)
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Suicide/Suffocation/Helium#Steps
 
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Arak

Enlightened
Sep 21, 2018
1,176
Not much of a description. I don't see a brand name. Some seller in Poland.
Reliable, for real ? If you compare it to: https://maxdogbrewing.com/contact (200 bar, 2 litre, '400 litres of compressed nitrogen') does this one at 8 litres contain 1,600 litres ??
Am I overlooking something ? And time is relevant, too much time has passed already. I don't like the '*Please allow approximately 6 weeks processing and delivery.'
 
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Arak

Enlightened
Sep 21, 2018
1,176
Btw, is this truly the 'megathread' as the name implies ?

I'm in Europe and I'm currently exploring this one since a certain product did not arrive.
 
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Hopeless_soul

Hopeless_soul

Soon
Jan 3, 2019
502
The Regulator:

A regulator screws on to the cylinder and does two things: 1) it reduces the pressure in the cylinder to a useable level, otherwise the 2000psi tank pressure would just blow the exit bag off your head as soon as you opened the valve, and 2) it controls the rate of gas flow into the exit bag —specifically, it should release it at 15Lpm, which is the minimum adequate to carry away exhaled CO2 and fool your lungs into believing there's enough air.

The good news is that while gas cylinder sizes are not globally standardized, the cylinder valve threads are —and both N2 and Ar cylinders have the same threads (other gasses have different threads), so a regulator that fits on one cylinder will fit equally well on another.

You don't need to worry about being sure to choose a regulator that will reduce the pressure: they all do that. The flowmeter is the critical element of the regulator for our purposes.

Some regulators come with a "click adjust" flowmeter that is very simple, allowing you to dial in 15Lpm without needing to think about it. To the best of my knowledge, these are medical grade regulators; generally very good quality, but often a bit more expensive. Others here may know more about them, and where to acquire them, than I do.

A typical welding regulator will have two gauges: the tank pressure gauge (unimportant to us) and the flowmeter gauge.

A welding regulator's flowmeter gauge will be marked in either cubic feet per hour (Cfh), Lpm, or both. Some welding systems require a fairly low flow of inert gas, much lower than our necessary 15Lpm, and this low flow is most easily measured in Cfh. If you see a gauge marked only in Cfh, it probably will not work for our purpose. Look at the highest Cfh setting on the flowmeter and do the math, to be certain. If the gauge reads in Lpm, a glance should tell you whether the regulator provides the necessary 15Lpm flow.

Harbor Freight Tools offers a cheap CO2/Ar regulator (it also works for N2) with a flowmeter that shows flow in both Cfh and Lpm and goes high enough for our purposes. This is what I have.

The Hose:

The hose needs to be long enough to reach from the gas cylinder beside you, up into the exit bag on your head. I have found it easiest to lead the hose up my back and into the bag at the very back of my neck. It seems to disrupt the fit of the bag less right there.

Some regulators come with a hose that threads directly into the regulator body. Some regulators come with a hose-barb, onto which a length of soft tubing can be pressed. Some regulators come with neither.

For the first situation, just thread the hose into the regulator, tighten it with a wrench, and it's ready.

(Regardless of what type of threaded fitting is used, you do need to wrench-tighten this fitting: a lot of gas can leak out at this connection. If it is a brass fitting, you should not need teflon tape on the threads; the soft metal deforms enough when tightened to provide an adequately gas-tight connection.)

For the second situation, take the hose-barb to a hardware / home improvement store and purchase tubing that fits onto the barb. Once home from the hardware store, thread the barb into the regulator body, tighten with a wrench, and press the tube onto the barb. It should be a snug fit; if you're worried it's too loose, use a small hose clamp / jubilee clip to secure it in place. If it's a little too tight to get the hose into place, soak the end of the tube in very hot water to soften it and press it onto the barb. I used clear vinyl tubing. Aquarium tubing should work. Surgical tubing may not; I don't know for sure.

For the third situation, you'll need a hose-barb fitting (typically brass) that threads into the regulator body. Take the entire regulator to the hardware store and ask someone to help you fit it with a hose barb. Then proceed as for the second situation.

Cover story: as with purchasing the gas cylinder, you're using N2 for brewing, or Ar for filling partial paint cans. Why Ar? because it's heavier than air and settles down onto the paint surface inside the can. For extra confidence that they won't ask inconvenient questions, you're doing it for your father, or your brother, and you don't know why they want it for their paint locker, they just said to get a hose barb and six feet of tubing…

The Exit Bag:

There are several videos on YouTube detailing construction of exit bags. I strongly recommend watching them. That's how I learned.

The short version of what you want is a turkey roasting bag —available in the supermarket, in with the zip-locks and cling wrap— with an elastic drawcord worked into a turned hem, and a cord-lock to adjust the drawcord's tension.

I used 3/8" elastic cord. I purchased both it and the cord lock at a sewing and crafts store (JoAnn's).

To construct the turned hem you'll need micropore (surgical) tape, available at a pharmacy in the first aid section. It's the right tape to use because it will reliably stick to the material of the bag itself. Sometimes it isn't labeled as "micropore." Ask a clerk if you can't find it.

Cover story: you were asked to re-stock the family first aid kit with micropore tape and you don't recognize any of the brands available.

Using an elastic drawcord is important: it needs to fit snugly around your neck, but not seal tightly. It must still be flexible enough for the flow of inert gas, lightly pressurizing the exit bag, to push past the elastic and flush away the CO2 you're exhaling. Don't use a non-elastic drawcord or do something like duct tape the bag to your neck; you don't want to create a seal, just a restriction.

Thank you very much for the info. I'm planning on using a helium tank, and according to my research that wouldn't need a regulator. Is that true? I've also read that with a 100% helium tank you'd only need the smallest tank available because 4 to 5 gulps of pure helium, inside the exit bag, are lethal.
 
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TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
Thank you very much for the info. I'm planning on using a helium tank, and according to my research that wouldn't need a regulator. Is that true?
No, it's not true.

Any compressed gas cylinder needs some form of regulator to convert the high pressure gas within the cylinder into a useable discharge pressure. Without a regulator, as soon as you open the valve you get an uncontrolled rush of pressurized gas (2000psi) that will blow the exit bag right off your head.

For helium cylinders bought for party balloons, this often takes the form of a super-basic combination regulator/nozzle: you fit the empty balloon to the nozzle and flex its rubber tip, and helium is discharged into the balloon. The more you flex the tip, the faster the gas is discharged, and the amount of gas discharged is determined by how long you hold the tip flexed. The sort of regulator is the mechanical equivalent of holding the pad of your thumb over the tip of a siphon hose to control how much comes out: very, very crude in terms of rate of flow and reliability of flow.

For use with an exit bag, this type of "regulator" doesn't work for two reasons. The first is that it's difficult to keep the valve open and releasing a steady stream of gas without having your hand on it. It's intended for the fast inflation of balloons, one at a time, not the steady release of a measured flow over a long period of time. The second is that there is absolutely no way to judge whether the gas flow is at the correct rate: 15Lpm. Too little flow and the CO2 builds up in the bag and foils your attempt; too much flow and the tank empties out too quickly to allow enough time for you to die.

For use with an exit bag, you need a regulator that will produce the required 15Lpm flow of gas over a long period of time without any manipulation beyond the initial setting of the flow rate. I believe there are several examples mentioned in this thread. If you're in the US, this is the model I have: https://www.harborfreight.com/regulator-gauge-94841.html Note that it has both a tank pressure gauge and, more importantly, a flowmeter gauge that reads in Lpm. You must have a steady flow of 15Lpm, sustained for 40 minutes, to be confident the eb/ig method will work.
I've also read that with a 100% helium tank you'd only need the smallest tank available because 4 to 5 gulps of pure helium, inside the exit bag, are lethal.
Again, not true. Although "smallest tank available" is something of a variable: you need 600 liters of gas, and if the smallest tank available contains 600 liters, then yes, the smallest tank will work.

A few gulps of He may be enough to render you unconscious, but you need several minutes within a sustained atmosphere of inert gas for death to occur. I would count on no fewer than ten minutes, and if I remember correctly, PPH recommends allowing 40 minutes to be certain. This translates into a minimum requirement of 600 liters of compressed gas. In the US, the smallest tank to use would be a 20cf, and a 40cf will give you more certainty.
 
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Hopeless_soul

Hopeless_soul

Soon
Jan 3, 2019
502
Thank you very much for the clarification! I read the PDF called 'How to Make your Own Inner Gas Hood Kit', and the book 'Final Exit', by Derek Humphry, but the info wasn't well specified.
 
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T

TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
Be cautious about using He for your inert gas. For various reasons --"moral," economic-- some He suppliers have taken to adulterating their He with air. It will still lift balloons, but the air content is high enough to make the He ineffective for ctb. Make certain it is 100% He, or else use either N2 or Ar, both available in industrially pure grade from welding supply stores. Additionally, N2 is available from brewery supply stores --though again, I have come across a couple reports of air-adulterated N2, so you'll need to do some research. "Max Dog" brewery supply N2 is reliably pure, and can be ordered with the necessary regulator/flowmeter to ctb.

Remember that He was specified in the original PPH and EI books specifically because it does not appear on an autopsy, both creating an apparent "natural," non-suicide death (once the eb/ig apparatus is removed) and allowing those who assisted someone's suicide (and then removed the apparatus) to escape prosecution. Aside from that one factor , as a gas He does not have any intrisically superior qualities over N2 or Ar, andit can often present more difficulties --assurance of purity, ease of constructing an apparatus-- than either N2 or Ar.
 
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H

harriet3456

Member
Jan 7, 2019
8
Hey guys, I'm wondering how much helium I'd need as I'm a heavy smoker (1 pack a day). I've read a couple places that smokers need more helium..?

Also, when calling to order a helium tank how many ballons should I say I want to fill for 600L?
 
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Hopeless_soul

Hopeless_soul

Soon
Jan 3, 2019
502
Hey guys, I'm wondering how much helium I'd need as I'm a heavy smoker (1 pack a day). I've read a couple places that smokers need more helium..?

Also, when calling to order a helium tank how many ballons should I say I want to fill for 600L?

I smoke too. I'm going to get a 40 cf tank. Hope it works. It's the only way I really want to do it. I was also thinking about doing it with helium, but I will get a nitrogen tank instead. Nowadays most party balloon helium tanks are not 100% pure; I wouldn't go for that. The helium I was planning to get was the one used for welding.
 
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color_me_gone

color_me_gone

Sun is rising
Dec 27, 2018
970
helium tank how many ballons
As Hopeless_soul said above, you want to stay away from helium for balloons. So many people were using this method successfully, that somewhere around 2015, the manufacturer's started mixing 20% air with the helium, making it generally not work now. So now you have to order from a compressed gas supplier or a welding supplier, and you still have to be sure that you are ordering pure gas, because these suppliers also offer mixes for various purposes. Helium, nitrogen and argon all work equally well for this method, just be sure it is pure gas, not a mix. If you are in the USA, here is a site that will ship a full 40 cuft cylinder of pure nitrogen. They ship via UPS ground transportation.
https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl
Good luck to you! I know your pain!
 
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color_me_gone

color_me_gone

Sun is rising
Dec 27, 2018
970
As Hopeless_soul said above, you want to stay away from helium for balloons. So many people were using this method successfully, that somewhere around 2015, the manufacturer's started mixing 20% air with the helium, making it generally not work now. So now you have to order from a compressed gas supplier or a welding supplier, and you still have to be sure that you are ordering pure gas, because these suppliers also offer mixes for various purposes. Helium, nitrogen and argon all work equally well for this method, just be sure it is pure gas, not a mix. If you are in the USA, here is a site that will ship a full 40 cuft cylinder of pure nitrogen. They ship via UPS ground transportation.
https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl
Good luck to you! I know your pain!
Sorry, I screwed up the link, it should be
https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?PNUM::1:UNDEF:X:40CYL-N
 
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