Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[crova]

im ordering nitrogen tank right now they are asking a few questions like

1. capacity of tank

2.pressure and flow rate

3. how many litres


how much do I get?

You can order it on Ebay if you live in Europe.
1.6 m3 of nitrogen
its £135 delivery incl.

 

[crova]

What options are there for the bag itself?

I think I've underestimated how difficult its design is....

Should the bag always be completely full at end end of each breath out, by keeping the flow rate high enough? Otherwise the bag could be sucked into the mouth? ----But that still doesn't guarantee it----

I'm worried. If it's supposedly a good method then I've missed something. I'm otherwise fully prepared!!!

Please help

Please before you start anything - 1. read, 2. read and again read this very chapter: hypoxic death and the exit bag from here:
[link from our
[Resource] List of Resources

https://anonfile.com/Y6r094j3b2/oct_hand_zip

 

[mysterymask]

crova the link u sent me... I have to download it?

 

[BA81]

I tried this method about a week ago and failed. I tried again today but still failed. Can somebody please give me some advice as to where I may have gone wrong in the process.

I have a 20L tank of ofn (oxygen free nitrogen) with an appropriate regulator for the tank and a hose that is recommended for the usage of nitrogen. For the exit bag I have a vacuum sealed bag which is used for clothing storage. The bag measures 60cm X 40cm. I'm not sure of the volume because the volume was not provided within the description of the bag when I purchased it and I have poor spacial awareness so I can't even provide an estimate of the volume.

During my first attempt I secured the hose to the inside of the bag with tape. I then placed the bag on top of my head and used the vacuum cleaner to extract all of the air from the bag. I then turned on the gas and waited until the bag filled up. I then exhaled and pulled the bag down over my head. I then closed the bag tightly around my neck using the air tight seal on the bottom of the bag. I left a small gap so the bag was not completely sealed around my neck. I did this to allow any co2 to escape and to prevent the bag from exploding. After I did this I quickly felt panicked but tried to bare it. I lasted only 28 seconds. I used the stop watch app on my phone so the time I lasted is exact. The reason for using the timer is so that I can determine whether there is a problem or not. My cut off point is 60 seconds. If I reach 60 seconds without blacking out I know there is a problem. I didn't even reach 30 seconds. I panicked because I felt like I was suffocating. Using this method I should not have that feeling so I know I've gone wrong somewhere.

It took over a week for me to build up enough courage to attempt this process again. My second attempt was about 3 hours ago. I followed the same process as last time but this time I made sure to exhale as much as possible. I exhaled until I felt dizzy and then pulled the bag over my head. Instead of using the seal on the bag I used a drawstring from a hoodie to secure the bag over my head. This time I did not leave any gaps for any gas tto escape from the bag. Once I secured the bag I took a deep breath in and closed the regulator so that no more nitrogen was being fed into the bag. This time I didn't panicked as much because I am much more resolute. However I only lasted 48 seconds and only felt a slight headache after removing the bag.

I do not know where I am going wrong and would appreciate any advice as I would like to make another attempt ASAP.

I am a heavy smoker so I am aware that this will effect the results.

 

[Kdawg2018]

I tried this method about a week ago and failed. I tried again today but still failed. Can somebody please give me some advice as to where I may have gone wrong in the process.

I have a 20L tank of ofn (oxygen free nitrogen) with an appropriate regulator for the tank and a hose that is recommended for the usage of nitrogen. For the exit bag I have a vacuum sealed bag which is used for clothing storage. The bag measures 60cm X 40cm. I'm not sure of the volume because the volume was not provided within the description of the bag when I purchased it and I have poor spacial awareness so I can't even provide an estimate of the volume.

During my first attempt I secured the hose to the inside of the bag with tape. I then placed the bag on top of my head and used the vacuum cleaner to extract all of the air from the bag. I then turned on the gas and waited until the bag filled up. I then exhaled and pulled the bag down over my head. I then closed the bag tightly around my neck using the air tight seal on the bottom of the bag. I left a small gap so the bag was not completely sealed around my neck. I did this to allow any co2 to escape and to prevent the bag from exploding. After I did this I quickly felt panicked but tried to bare it. I lasted only 28 seconds. I used the stop watch app on my phone so the time I lasted is exact. The reason for using the timer is so that I can determine whether there is a problem or not. My cut off point is 60 seconds. If I reach 60 seconds without blacking out I know there is a problem. I didn't even reach 30 seconds. I panicked because I felt like I was suffocating. Using this method I should not have that feeling so I know I've gone wrong somewhere.

It took over a week for me to build up enough courage to attempt this process again. My second attempt was about 3 hours ago. I followed the same process as last time but this time I made sure to exhale as much as possible. I exhaled until I felt dizzy and then pulled the bag over my head. Instead of using the seal on the bag I used a drawstring from a hoodie to secure the bag over my head. This time I did not leave any gaps for any gas tto escape from the bag. Once I secured the bag I took a deep breath in and closed the regulator so that no more nitrogen was being fed into the bag. This time I didn't panicked as much because I am much more resolute. However I only lasted 48 seconds and only felt a slight headache after removing the bag.

I do not know where I am going wrong and would appreciate any advice as I would like to make another attempt ASAP.

I am a heavy smoker so I am aware that this will effect the results.

Some Things I can see are:


-air tight seal on the bottom of the bag- your bag should fit 2 fingers underneath to measure tightness, it should have elastic at bottom. Sounds like you should watch doing it with betty for advice, it's in resources or on YouTube, I don't think you have the exit bag made correctly, hugs

-Why the vacuum? You don't need that

 

[Ayeitsalaska]

I have a hard time reading and understanding things. I've read the whole thread 3 times and I still don't understand it. Can someone please make this basic for me? Send me the links of the equipment I need to buy to accomplish this method?

 

[Kdawg2018]

I have a hard time reading and understanding things. I've read the whole thread 3 times and I still don't understand it. Can someone please make this basic for me? Send me the links of the equipment I need to buy to accomplish this method?

https://maxdogbrewing.com/ and watch youtube doing it with betty

 

[BA81]

Some Things I can see are:


-air tight seal on the bottom of the bag- your bag should fit 2 fingers underneath to measure tightness, it should have elastic at bottom. Sounds like you should watch doing it with betty for advice, it's in resources or on YouTube, I don't think you have the exit bag made correctly, hugs

-Why the vacuum? You don't need that

Thanks for your response. I have watched the video "doing it with Betty" I have also read the peaceful pill handbook and have referenced many sources. I have been planning this for months now and have finally gotten all of my affairs in order to make this process as easy as possible for those that I leave behind.

During my first attempt I left enough of a gap at the bottom of the bag.

I am using a vacuum bag because it is a thick non porous bag that won't allow any oxygen into it. Using the vacuum bag also allows me to be confident that I have removed most of the oxygen from the bag.

I don't know where I went wrong

 

[Kdawg2018]

Thanks for your response. I have watched the video "doing it with Betty" I have also read the peaceful pill handbook and have referenced many sources. I have been planning this for months now and have finally gotten all of my affairs in order to make this process as easy as possible for those that I leave behind.

During my first attempt I left enough of a gap at the bottom of the bag.

I am using a vacuum bag because it is a thick non porous bag that won't allow any oxygen into it. Using the vacuum bag also allows me to be confident that I have removed most of the oxygen from the bag.

I don't know where I went wrong

The bag I found most like the videos is the Reynolds oven bags for turkey, with micro porous tape, with the toggle, and elastic, just like Betty does. What are you stating? That you did not pass out with this method? It could not work if you have a lung issue, I think you said you are a smoker...

 

[TiredHorse]

I tried this method about a week ago and failed. I tried again today but still failed. Can somebody please give me some advice as to where I may have gone wrong in the process.

I can offer you a suggestion you won't like, and then explain it.

I don't think CO2 was the problem. I think things went awry because of your survival instinct --the same reason they went wrong for me.

The reasons I think this are:

1) Your exit bag isn't standard, but you did leave a gap at the bottom to flush away the CO2. The second attempt, with the lace making the bag tight, wasn't a good idea. HOWEVER, I think that is irrelevant because...

2) When I did a trial run with the bag over my head, the bag filled with air, it took several minutes for the CO2 build-up to trigger the hypercapnic alarm. I had time to sit around in my chair, get annoyed at the bag fogging up, get up and use the toilet, come back, sit down --and only after all that was I starting to get the panic response. You report a panic response in under a minute with the CO2 being flushed.

In other words, I don't think you had enough CO2 in that bag for it to have triggered the hypercapnic alarm (panic response).

By contrast, when I was trying it for real, I would get to where my hands were tingling, my vision was going dark around the edges, and I was getting dizzy --which probably took less than a minute (I didn't have a stopwatch, and my stress levels were so high the time dilation was pretty severe). And yet I still pulled the bag away. It was pure survival instinct; no CO2 was needed. And it happened several times, over several weeks, getting progressively worse with each successive attempt.

Don't think that makes your lack of success any less real. Survival instinct is a bitch!

I suspect your history as a smoker is very likely making the process slower --every reference I have encountered specifically states you cannot successfully use this method if you have any breathing problems-- which will give your SI that much more time to foil you, too.

If I were you, I would probably construct a standard "Betty Bag", just to eliminate that as a potential factor, but from everything else you wrote, there's no reason it shouldn't have worked --except that we humans are damnably difficult to kill, even when we want to die.

If you're feeling anything like how I felt after I failed, I'm really, really sorry. It is utterly exhausting and demoralizing to miss that bus. I've been trying to gather my strength for several weeks now, and I'm still pretty wrung out. I'd suggest taking some time to let your subconscious relax out of panic-mode, regain your strength, and try and get yourself into a calmer state of mind.

It wasn't your skills or resolve that failed, it was your survival instinct taking over.

 

[BA81]

The bag I found most like the videos is the Reynolds oven bags for turkey, with micro porous tape, with the toggle, and elastic, just like Betty does. What are you stating? That you did not pass out with this method? It could not work if you have a lung issue, I think you said you are a smoker...

Yes I am a smoker, a heavy smoker.

The problem I experienced on both attempts was a feeling of suffocation. As far as I am aware I should not feel like I am suffocating if everything is done correctly.

I am sure that on both attempts that I have removed all of the oxygen from the bag that could have been removed. Any oxygen that was able to enter the bag should have been very negligible and should have been displaced by the nitrogen.

The only possibility that I can think of is that I still had co2 in my lungs when I fastened the bag over my head and inhaled.

I'm going to wait another couple of hours. Hopefully in that time somebody will be able to point out exactly where I went wrong.

If all else fails and I'm unable to figure out where I went wrong then I will try again but this time I will exhale deeply and then vacuum seal the bag onto my head while the bag is pulled down and fully fastened. Then I will fill it with nitrogen gas. I really hope I don't have to resort to trying it this way.

 

[Shewaitsforme]

I agree with TiredHorse, seems mire of a survival instinct than anything else. Even when you are 100% ready to go the body will still react, your brain knows whats its doing and your unconscious reaction was to 'save yourself'. There is one thing making plans, having the equipment, setting it up but its totally different carrying out the act.

I hope you find a way past it if this is what you want, i literally crumbled as soon as the tank arrived, took myself to get help, i couldnt even be in my flat with it here.

 

[BA81]

I can offer you a suggestion you won't like, and then explain it.

I don't think CO2 was the problem. I think things went awry because of your survival instinct --the same reason they went wrong for me.

The reasons I think this are:

1) Your exit bag isn't standard, but you did leave a gap at the bottom to flush away the CO2. The second attempt, with the lace making the bag tight, wasn't a good idea. HOWEVER, I think that is irrelevant because...

2) When I did a trial run with the bag over my head, the bag filled with air, it took several minutes for the CO2 build-up to trigger the hypercapnic alarm. I had time to sit around in my chair, get annoyed at the bag fogging up, get up and use the toilet, come back, sit down --and only after all that was I starting to get the panic response. You report a panic response in under a minute with the CO2 being flushed.

In other words, I don't think you had enough CO2 in that bag for it to have triggered the hypercapnic alarm (panic response).

By contrast, when I was trying it for real, I would get to where my hands were tingling, my vision was going dark around the edges, and I was getting dizzy --which probably took less than a minute (I didn't have a stopwatch, and my stress levels were so high the time dilation was pretty severe). And yet I still pulled the bag away. It was pure survival instinct; no CO2 was needed. And it happened several times, over several weeks, getting progressively worse with each successive attempt.

Don't think that makes your lack of success any less real. Survival instinct is a bitch!

I suspect your history as a smoker is very likely making the process slower --every reference I have encountered specifically states you cannot successfully use this method if you have any breathing problems-- which will give your SI that much more time to foil you, too.

If I were you, I would probably construct a standard "Betty Bag", just to eliminate that as a potential factor, but from everything else you wrote, there's no reason it shouldn't have worked --except that we humans are damnably difficult to kill, even when we want to die.

If you're feeling anything like how I felt after I failed, I'm really, really sorry. It is utterly exhausting and demoralizing to miss that bus. I've been trying to gather my strength for several weeks now, and I'm still pretty wrung out. I'd suggest taking some time to let your subconscious relax out of panic-mode, regain your strength, and try and get yourself into a calmer state of mind.

It wasn't your skills or resolve that failed, it was your survival instinct taking over.

I think you may be right about my survival instinct causing me to become panicked. After the first failed attempt I practiced by just placing the bag over my head without any nitrogen entering it. I did this to make myself become more comfortable with having a bag on my head. I think that it helped with my attempt earlier today because I was much less panicked and much more comfortable.

My survival instinct is probably the issue so I think I'll have to practice a few more times this evening with just the bag over my head and see if I can extend my level of endurance and fight my instincts.

Thanks for your response

 

[BA81]

I agree with TiredHorse, seems mire of a survival instinct than anything else. Even when you are 100% ready to go the body will still react, your brain knows whats its doing and your unconscious reaction was to 'save yourself'. There is one thing making plans, having the equipment, setting it up but its totally different carrying out the act.

I hope you find a way past it if this is what you want, i literally crumbled as soon as the tank arrived, took myself to get help, i couldnt even be in my flat with it here.

I'm also starting to think that my problem was caused by my survival instinct so I'm going to practice and see if I can beat it or at least lengthen the time it takes for me to start panicking.

If you crumbled at the sight of just seeing the tank arrive at your flat then this is probably not what you want and seeking help was probably the best thing that you could do for yourself. If seeking help was your first step towards wanting to live maybe another step for you should be to remove yourself from these kinds of discussions and start engaging in discussions that give you a reason to live.

I wish you the best.

 

[crova]

crova the link u sent me... I have to download it?

Yes please do!
this is a pdf book from our local resources. The best information to start with.

 

[Jenna]

I know I have tried mine on with the air but I have to wait for Christmas but I wonder if so much is over thinking it. I see stories where people just do it. It makes me afraid but I want it to work.

 

[Shewaitsforme]

I'm also starting to think that my problem was caused by my survival instinct so I'm going to practice and see if I can beat it or at least lengthen the time it takes for me to start panicking.

If you crumbled at the sight of just seeing the tank arrive at your flat then this is probably not what you want and seeking help was probably the best thing that you could do for yourself. If seeking help was your first step towards wanting to live maybe another step for you should be to remove yourself from these kinds of discussions and start engaging in discussions that give you a reason to live.

I wish you the best.

It was moreso the method, i have SN now and thats not caused the same reaction. Ive been allowed back to work but im by no means not wanting to CTB. The only thing that had stopped me so far is that i wanted to be 100% that id given everything and that was thr first time id actually seeked out help. Id spent 2 months under section prior to that. Im still on here because there are no rules to say if your living for now then you cant be here, everyone on here including you are still 'living' for now, im just the same. Im a rational person, not impulsive so this is how i need to do this.

 

[BA81]

It was moreso the method, i have SN now and thats not caused the same reaction. Ive been allowed back to work but im by no means not wanting to CTB. The only thing that had stopped me so far is that i wanted to be 100% that id given everything and that was thr first time id actually seeked out help. Id spent 2 months under section prior to that. Im still on here because there are no rules to say if your living for now then you cant be here, everyone on here including you are still 'living' for now, im just the same. Im a rational person, not impulsive so this is how i need to do this.

In no way whatsoever was I implying that you do not have the right to be here. I am in no position to do that. I am new to this forum and have only been a member for a few hours. I only registered on this forum after encountering a problem earlier today.

From your post I assumed that you had changed your mind after seeking help. My reply was based on that assumption.

In no way did I mean to offend you.

 

[Shewaitsforme]

In no way whatsoever was I implying that you do not have the right to be here. I am in no position to do that. I am new to this forum and have only been a member for a few hours. I only registered on this forum after encountering a problem earlier today.

From your post I assumed that you had changed your mind after seeking help. My reply was based on that assumption.

In no way did I mean to offend you.

I understand, its just there are a few people on here that say if your choosing to give it a go and see if things improve or actively recovering then you shouldnt be allowed on here anymore. This site is part of my process still, maybe in the furture ill come off, my online time has reduced alot this week but im not ready to leave just yet. Im not on meds, in treatment etc so this is sort of my safety net :)

 

[Ready and waiting]

I I have read the Peaceful Pill handbook and Final Exit and my question is about where/how to attach the tube to the helium tank. Is a commercial helium tank 20 cubic foot not by Balloon Time. The attachment they gave (pic) is not exactly like the Disposable helium tank attachment. I'm not sure how to get the tube onto this thing or what's underneath the rubber hose thingy on the end, if anyone has any advice please let me know I don't want to damage it before I get a chance to use it.

 

[Adrian]

In this post I would like to discuss the challenge of controlling the flow of the inert gas. The post has dual intent: to get someone to review my calculations and spot mistakes if any, and to help others with theirs.

Sources: post by TiredHorse that started this thread, TPP Handbook, Five Last Acts, Final Exit.

I'll skip the part with constructing the bag, that is covered enough, and will go straight to the gas (Helium/Nitrogen, with Helium being my choice) and tubings.

I'm going to use metric system throughout. My imperial friends can just remember that 1 inch is 2.54 cm, and 1 cu ft is 28 liters.

Recommended flow
Recommended "Letal dose" by varied sources is 125..250 liters. This being inert gas, it isn't letal per se, as it works by pushing away oxygen. So this dose is just amount of inert gas that is enough to maintain big enough flow for big enough time.

How much flow is big enough? 10-15 liters per minute. If it is too little, carbon dioxide may not be evacuated fast enough and panic will happen, or the bag can stick to nose/mouth, causing unpleasant experience.

How much time is long enough? Time to unconsciousness is on average 25 seconds (10-120 seconds), and time to death is on average 13 minutes (2-40 minutes). I did not find where the point of no return is, i.e. whether the flow needs to be stable up until the death, or can be stopped sooner. Sources recommend gas to last for 20 minutes.

From here we can see how important it is to set the right flow: too little, and you are up to very unpeasant experience, too much, and gas runs out too soon, causing you to survive but have permament brain damage (I could not find info on how likely this is, and how that brain damage will manifest itself - info appreciated).



I'll talk in a moment about how to control gas flow, but first let's think how we can measure it, to ensure we set it up correctly.

Standard small balloon has diameter of 9 inch. This is 0.2286 meters. Radius is 0.114 meters. Volume is (=4/3*pi*r^3) 6 liters. That means once everything is set up, you can connect balloon to your tubing, and see how quickly it inflates, and calculate you effective flow. I.e. if balloon inflates in 20 seconds, flow is 18 liters per minute. Call it a poor man's flow meter.

Knowing balloon size, you can also calculate tank volume in case they provide it's capacity in balloons. I.e. if they say tank can fill 200 9 inch balloons, you can calculate that it has capacity of 1200 liters. It is safer though to get industrual tank that specifies volume in standard liters.



Another important consideration is whether the gas is pure. There have been reports of balloon gas sold being not pure Helium, but diluted with air. They do so to save money, and also to prevent suicides. The way I handled it, is by purchasing oxygen meter, inflating a balloon from each of the tanks, and putting oxygen meter sensor inside the balloon. Measurement shows less than 1% oxygen, so gas is pure in my case.

I've got three tanks here, with volumes of ~300, ~900, and ~2400 liters. Let's calculate flow required if using either of these.



As we see, if I were to use the smallest tank, I need to control flow very precisely, and it is too easy to make it too small, or too large, causing failure. So bigger tank is preferred. With biggest tank I have the most flexibility.

Once I set up flow control, I can measure the flow using a balloon method described earlier.

Next post: how to control the flow.

 

[Jodes]

In this post I would like to discuss the challenge of controlling the flow of the inert gas. The post has dual intent: to get someone to review my calculations and spot mistakes if any, and to help others with theirs.

Sources: post by TiredHorse that started this thread, TPP Handbook, Five Last Acts, Final Exit.

I'll skip the part with constructint the bag, that is covered enough, and will go straight to the gas (Helium/Nitrogen, with Helium being my choice) and tubings.

I'm going to use metric system throughout. My imperial friends can just remember that 1 inch is 2.54 cm, and 1 cu ft is 28 liters.

Recommended flow
Recommended "Letal dose" by varied sources is 125..250 liters. This being inert gas, it isn't letal per se, as it works by pushing away oxygen. So this dose is just amount of inert gas that is enough to maintain big enough flow for big enough time.

How much flow is big enough? 10-15 liters per minute. If it is too little, carbon dioxide may not be evacuated fast enough and panic will happen, or the bag can stick to nose/mouth, causing unpleasant experience.

How much time is long enough? Time to unconsciousness is on average 25 seconds (10-120 seconds), and time to death is on average 13 minutes (2-40 minutes). I did not find where the point of no return is, i.e. whether the flow needs to be stable up until the death, or can be stopped sooner. Sources recommend gas to last for 20 minutes.

From here we can see how important it is to set the right flow: too little, and you are up to very unpeasant experience, too much, and gas runs out too soon, causing you to survive but have permament brain damage (I could not find info on how likely this is, and how that brain damage will manifest itself - info appreciated).

View attachment 4573

I'll talk in a moment about how to control gas flow, but first let's think how we can measure it, to ensure we set it up correctly.

Standard small balloon has diameter of 9 inch. This is 0.2286 meters. Radius is 0.114 meters. Volume is (=4/3*pi*r^3) 6 liters. That means once everything is set up, you can connect balloon to your tubing, and see how quickly it inflates, and calculate you effective flow. I.e. if balloon inflates in 20 seconds, flow is 18 liters per minute. Call it a poor man's flow meter.

Knowing balloon size, you can also calculate tank volume in case they provide it's capacity in balloons. I.e. if they say tank can fill 200 9 inch balloons, you can calculate that it has capacity of 1200 liters. It is safer though to get industrual tank that specifies volume in standard liters.

View attachment 4574

Another important consideration is whether the gas is pure. There have been reports of balloon gas sold being not pure Helium, but diluted with air. They do so to save money, and also to prevent suicides. The way I handled it, is by purchasing oxygen meter, inflating a balloon from each of the tanks, and putting oxygen meter sensor inside the balloon. Measurement shows less than 1% oxygen, so gas is pure in my case.

I've got three tanks here, with volumes of ~300, ~900, and ~2400 liters. Let's calculate flow required if using either of these.

View attachment 4575

As we see, if I were to use the smallest tank, I need to control flow very precisely, and it is too easy to make it too small, or too large, causing failure. So bigger tank is preferred. With biggest tank I have the most flexibility.

Once I set up flow control, I can measure the flow using a balloon method described earlier.

Next post: how to control the flow.

I think the tolerance depends on the person, but helpful post for me, thanks. Your next one in particular, I'm worried about.

 

[Adrian]

How to control flow

When you buy helium tank with purpose of "filling balloons", it often comes with balloon inflating adapter.



The most naive method (as some books/guides suggest) is to use knife to remove rubber thingie from balloon inflating adapter, and attach a tube to it instead. This seems like a horrible idea to me. According to my measurements, such adapter inflates balloon in half a second, providing flow of 720 liters liters per minute. Such flow is NOT suitable for exit bag.

I tried to control flow by opening main tank valve just a tiny bit, but it is too unreliable. It needs to be open by just a few millimiters to give correct gas flow, and it is too easy to make flow too high, and I don't want to take that risk.

Then I tried to find a regulator that TiredHorse is talking about in the original post. Such regulator would control both pressure and flow. I could not find such regulator in my country, and after some reading, it appears that more commonly people (not suicidal ones, but real plumbers and tech workers) use pressure regulator and flow regulator as separate pieces of equipment.

So I purchased a pressure regulator that allows me to go from 200-300 bar to 0-10 bar.


Caveat: CGA fitting for balloon inflator has special rubber ring to prevent leaks, and allow people to screw it in using bare hand. CGA fitting for pressure regulator doesn't have such rubber ring, and has metal-to-metal connection, as it is not designed to be screwed in using bare hand. If you connect it by hand, it will leak (did so for me). I had to purchase a big wrench to screw it a bit tighter (do not use too much force, getting fracture in the connector is not good either). Read more: https://weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/t-356581.html

Pressure regulator works, and outside pressure is low enough. However it does not control flow. Standard pressure regulator does not control flow by design. You may think to use very low pressure as output, to make it "control flow", but this is not a recommended mode of work for pressure regulators. In my tests it still inflated balloon in a couple of seconds.

However now we can attach needle valve, or flow meter to actually control flow. For me, flow meter does the job. Despite the name, it not only measures the flow, it also allows to control it.



CAUTION: flow meter is normally calibrated for certain input pressure, and for certain gas. Likely the flow meter you purchase, it not calibrated for helium (but for carbon dioxide or argon instead). That means we can't trust absolute values of flow that flow meter shows, but we still can use it to control flow.

One can use some math to convert readings from flow meter for different gas: https://www.brooksinstrument.com/en/resources/sizing-tools

Or just use the old good balloon method to measure real flow (and tune it using flow meter).

Finally I would add ball valve after the flow meter to open/close flow of gas. It does not do flow control, it has just two positions: opened/closed. This will be the last valve I'll be turning.



When purchasing all of these pieces I had to stick to certain tube size, otherwise they wouldn't connect to each other. The exact tube size and standards depend on your country.

When not using the system, main valve on the balloon needs to be shut closed to avoid potential leaks. It is recommended to open-close exit valve for a second after closing tank valve, to ensure regulators/flowmeter are emptied and are not idle under pressure.

I measured, and with pressure regulator set at 2 bar, and flowmeter slightly opened, I get balloon inflated in 20 seconds, meaning the flow is good 18 liters per minute. Flowmeter itself shows flow below 10 liters per minute, but that is because it is calibrated for Argon, not for Helium. I might want to purchase flow meter with range 0..15 liters rather than the one I have with range 10..40 liters, as the current one has to operate at the edge of its range, which is not recommended mode of operation for it.

CAUTION: take care to not send gas with too much pressure into flow meter, as it can explode when misused. Its operating manual specifies acceptable input pressure (for me it was 2 bar).

If you are a tech-minded perfectionist, you may also want to read this [https://www.swagelok.com/~/media/Distributor Media/C-G/Chicago/Services/Resources/How-to-Read-a-Flow-Curve-Chicago.ashx] and ensure you pressure regulator operates on the good part of the curve.

Next post: how the whole assembled pipeline looks like, and final steps.

 

[Adrian]

Final act

This is how I'll be opening valves on the final day.
0. Tank valve should be in closed position as it always is when tank not in use
1. Close pressure regulator fully.
2. Close exit valve
3. Flowmeter valve is partially opened from the previous session where I tuned it to desired position. Do not move it from that position.
4. Open tank valve fully (or half way, it doesn't matter)
5. Look at pressure regulator and confirm 200 bar input pressure, and 0 bar output
6. Slowly open pressure regulator until I get 2 bar output pressure
7. Connect balloon to output pipe (the one that is inside exit bag), and open output valve fully.
8. Observe that balloon inflates in 20 seconds, confirm flow is good 18 liters per minute
9. Close output valve.
10. Put on exit bag below nose, but above mouth, several times inhale by nose, and exhale by mouth, to empty the bag (some people may prefer to use hands to empty the bag)
11. Finally open exit valve, while the bag is inflating (will take about 20 seconds), exhale via mouth, and pull the bag down
12. Start breathing normally.

Assembled pipeline: [will update pic of assembled thing later, as I'm not alone at home at the moment, and I store it disassembled]

 

[TiredHorse]

An excellent post, @Adrian.

What country are you in, and would you consider listing where you purchased your equipment and specifically what items you chose?

I would offer only a few amendments:

1) Flow rate should be a solid 15Lpm, or as close to it as possible, not 10-15. I state this because this was the flow rate we used to use for delivering O2 to patients when I was an EMT: it is adequate to completely supply the lungs --which translates in this application as adequate to completely flush away all CO2 and breathable air. A lower flow might result in CO2 contamination and failure, as well as a longer time to unconsciousness.

2) To that end, and assuming 40 minutes to be confident of death, 600L of gas is a good minimum to use. More is better, of course, to allow room for errors in calculation, flowmeter accuracy, etc.

3) 25 seconds is an optimistic assessment for unconsciousness. Time to unconsciousness is highly variable. In the times I have attempted it, I have been unable to control my breathing so well as is recommended --I was breathing very fast and shallow-- and I suspect I spent about a minute with my head in the bag (perhaps longer?) before I began to feel effects.

4) Remember to calculate the amount of gas you will need to preliminarily fill the bag, before you pull the bag down over your head. This can be a surprisingly large amount depending on the size of your exit bag.

Again, an excellent contribution to the thread. Thank you.

 

[Ready and waiting]

How to control flow

When you buy helium tank with purpose of "filling balloons", it often comes with balloon inflating adapter.

View attachment 4576 View attachment 4577

The most naive method (as some books/guides suggest) is to use knife to remove rubber thingie from balloon inflating adapter, and attach a tube to it instead. This seems like a horrible idea to me. According to my measurements, such adapter inflates balloon in half a second, providing flow of 720 liters liters per minute. Such flow is NOT suitable for exit bag.

I tried to control flow by opening main tank valve just a tiny bit, but it is too unreliable. It needs to be open by just a few millimiters to give correct gas flow, and it is too easy to make flow too high, and I don't want to take that risk.

Then I tried to find a regulator that TiredHorse is talking about in the original post. Such regulator would control both pressure and flow. I could not find such regulator in my country, and after some reading, it appears that more commonly people (not suicidal ones, but real plumbers and tech workers) use pressure regulator and flow regulator as separate pieces of equipment.

So I purchased a pressure regulator that allows me to go from 200-300 bar to 0-10 bar.

View attachment 4578
Caveat: CGA fitting for balloon inflator has special rubber ring to prevent leaks, and allow people to screw it in using bare hand. CGA fitting for pressure regulator doesn't have such rubber ring, and has metal-to-metal connection, as it is not designed to be screwed in using bare hand. If you connect it by hand, it will leak (did so for me). I had to purchase a big wrench to screw it a bit tighter (do not use too much force, getting fracture in the connector is not good either). Read more: https://weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/t-356581.html

Pressure regulator works, and outside pressure is low enough. However it does not control flow. Standard pressure regulator does not control flow by design. You may think to use very low pressure as output, to make it "control flow", but this is not a recommended mode of work for pressure regulators. In my tests it still inflated balloon in a couple of seconds.

However now we can attach needle valve, or flow meter to actually control flow. For me, flow meter does the job. Despite the name, it not only measures the flow, it also allows to control it.

View attachment 4579

CAUTION: flow meter is normally calibrated for certain input pressure, and for certain gas. Likely the flow meter you purchase, it not calibrated for helium (but for carbon dioxide or argon instead). That means we can't trust absolute values of flow that flow meter shows, but we still can use it to control flow.

One can use some math to convert readings from flow meter for different gas: https://www.brooksinstrument.com/en/resources/sizing-tools

Or just use the old good balloon method to measure real flow (and tune it using flow meter).

Finally I would add ball valve after the flow meter to open/close flow of gas. It does not do flow control, it has just two positions: opened/closed. This will be the last valve I'll be turning.

View attachment 4580

When purchasing all of these pieces I had to stick to certain tube size, otherwise they wouldn't connect to each other. The exact tube size and standards depend on your country.

When not using the system, main valve on the balloon needs to be shut closed to avoid potential leaks. It is recommended to open-close exit valve for a second after closing tank valve, to ensure regulators/flowmeter are emptied and are not idle under pressure.

I measured, and with pressure regulator set at 2 bar, and flowmeter slightly opened, I get balloon inflated in 20 seconds, meaning the flow is good 18 liters per minute. Flowmeter itself shows flow below 10 liters per minute, but that is because it is calibrated for Argon, not for Helium. I might want to purchase flow meter with range 0..15 liters rather than the one I have with range 10..40 liters, as the current one has to operate at the edge of its range, which is not recommended mode of operation for it.

CAUTION: take care to not send gas with too much pressure into flow meter, as it can explode when misused. Its operating manual specifies acceptable input pressure (for me it was 2 bar).

If you are a tech-minded perfectionist, you may also want to read this [https://www.swagelok.com/~/media/Distributor Media/C-G/Chicago/Services/Resources/How-to-Read-a-Flow-Curve-Chicago.ashx] and ensure you pressure regulator operates on the good part of the curve.

Next post: how the whole assembled pipeline looks like, and final steps.

Thank you so much!

 

[Smilla]

Quick question for all of you intelligent folks: I have the max dog regulator (my avatar).

The website says it fits a 20cuft tank but I plan to use 40cft, especially in light of recent discussions here...

Will my max dog fit a 40 cu ft tank?

 

[TiredHorse]

Yes: all nitrogen tanks (and argon, for that matter) have the same fitting. This is so that welders don't need to buy separate regulators for the different size tanks they might need.

 

[Kam59]

I failed a few months ago using Balloon helium and an exit bag .
I didn't use a flow meter and I think it was too loose round the neck and air cdame in ..
I passed out almost immediately but came to about 30 mins later ,disorientated,headache ...
I found out balloon helium s 97 % pure , contaminated. So not sure why I failed
Better with N or ar

 

[Adrian]

@TiredHorse, sorry I'd prefer not to disclose country and all suppliers. I am in Europe though.

Major supplier is BOC - most of the items I was able to get from there, though I was quite erratically buying different versions of tanks/tubings/regulators, as they all took some time to get delivered, and I didn't know exactly what to order, and it took some time to experiment and see which of them fit with each other, and I didn't want to introduce extra delays.

Gas tanks:
- Industrial Helium, got it from local generic supplier, not BOC, 900 liters. Good tank, standard CGA fittings.
- Genie tank of Balloon gas (turned out to be pure Helium), 2400 liters. Caution: it has non-standard fittings, so I wasn't able to do anything useful with it, except for filling balloons.
- Disposable balloon gas tank (turned out to be pure helium), 300 liters. Caution: has hardwired balloon fitting, so can't attach regulator, not useful.

Without the country, specific examples of the rest of the items are pretty useless, but I hope pictures and descriptions have helped.

Regarding 15 liters/minute flow, I agree it takes this much to fully supply breathing air for human, but did you consider if that needs adjustment for the fact that we are talking about inert gas, so contents of exhaled gas will be also pure helium (except small leftovers of CO2) in lungs? I.e. in the extreme case when you fully exhale before putting on the bag, isn't it true that bag is full of helium, so any further breathing won't change its contents, hence no extra flow is needed. So the flow we are adding does not need to match the amount of air that is breathed in-out by human, but needs to be just big enough to remove the initial contamination? One of the books ("Exit" I think) mentioned tests where they put tube with flow of air inside the bag with human, and measure concentration of CO2 over time. They found that 5 liters/minute is not enough to keep CO2 low, while 15 liters/minute was enough. Helium flow does seem theoretically quite different than air though, as when breathing Helium human doesn't generate any new CO2, so we shouldn't expect CO2 to rise over time, right?

If we do indeed need _at least_ 15 liters per minute, it means we need to be even more precise doing flow control, as the margin for error becomes smaller.

Also a very minor data point, while I was testing setup, I took two deep breaths from a balloon (I think it took like 15 seconds to do so), and by the end of those 15 seconds I did feel _something_ (i.e. lightheadedness, and some darkness in the vision). It doesn't seem too suprising if 25 seconds were enough to get unconscious.

This is where I got the timing: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Suicide/Suffocation/Helium (though I think I computed average by blending in some dara from other books I've processed).

Thanks for the amendments, I'll think on it more over the next days.