Yes because well, the conversation started about people complaining of other people asking question of whether the person is sure of their decision and have thought of them thoroughly. This isn't voting, it doesn't have the same ramifications as voting. And even then, not everyone is allowed to vote; but if you are going to grant everyone the right to self determination, then what I said about teenagers and people under psychosis should be true according to you. So I'm gonna ask this again. If everyone gets the right to die, which I agree with, does that mean to you that there shouldn't be any interference or questioning about their decision from the outsiders?
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How I agree with you. I came to the same conclusion.
I am relatively new here but I had the impression that this forum is dominated by people that believe that being born is a sin, life is pointless, your parents committed a crime by having you, humanity should not procreate, and you should die regardless whether you are suffering or not because life is meaningless and non-existence is the only worthy thing that one could aim for. Maybe these people on this forum are not the majority, maybe it just seems like it, as they enter all kinds of threads, trying to spread their death religion, pushing their opinion on everyone with a loud and pride voice as anyone that is not on board is just brainless and not seeing "reality". I think we should respect people on this forum that want to CTB not because of death religion but simply because of quality of life. For example a cancer patient might want to CTB but if all of a sudden they have a miracolous recovery, they might decide not to CTB. I understand that there are not many forums for these death religion people to convey their ideology so this forum serves use for them. Even though most of them want everyone else to CTB and yet many of them have been here for years. Which is their business. But I think occasionally they should be reminded that many of us here to CTB without subscribing to death religion beliefs. And also the fact that this site is pro-choice. Not pro-death. (The reason I call it a "religion" is not due to disrespect, is due to the unquestionable, unshakable devotion and conviction they subscribe to their belief system). Due to this dominance on this site, I will try to stick to method discussions only in order to avoid these people as much as possible. But yes, if someone recovers from cancer or mental illness, I will celebrate with them and I will not tell them that you should CTB anyway as humanity's existence and existence itself is a big cosmic error.
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neverLoved
Member
- May 4, 2024
- 42
Honestly I have been lurking here for a good amount of time until yesterday that I decided to create an account. One thing which I did notice is that there are indeed some people here who are extremely 'pro death'. Meanwhile like you mentioned they have old accounts and been here for a while.
I really believe that there are some disgusting people on here who love to tell others what to do. There are some with really bad intentions.
I really believe that there are some disgusting people on here who love to tell others what to do. There are some with really bad intentions.
Callie Arcale
It’s a tale told by an idiot signifying nothing
- Feb 10, 2021
- 846
I have a knee-jerk reaction to anything pro-life. This whole "oh I feel sorry for you, but life is still worth living" bullshit makes me sick to my stomach. As soon as I catch a wiff of a pro-lifer I avoid them like the plague. In the past I have been burned by a pro-lifer on the forum, it wasn't fun.
Pro-choice is the only stance I respect and believe in.
This is unfortunately correct.
Pro-choice is the only stance I respect and believe in.
This is unfortunately correct.
DeathOfKane
Member
- Apr 5, 2024
- 65
Upon reading the discourse in the comments, reading this post, and the thread of the second example. It seems like some people under this thread don't quite even know what they want for themselves but want to talk about what is and isn't okay to say to others.
Some of you claiming you're not pro life, do share similar ideas as pro-lifers. Some of you claiming you're not pro death extremists, are definitely pro-death extremists. Key word is SOME. we don't all fit into the same category. When looking at all that I mentioned earlier, suicidality is like a spectrum and we do not all fall on the same area. Just like anything else in life that isn't one way and one way only.
I see nothing wrong with OP asking if theres anything that can be done medically. Nobody truly wants people to die they want people to have livable lives they want to participate in.
It is sad when someone dies of suicide but it's what they want. That's the point of being pro-choice. Acknowledging the seriousness and the sadness of suicide whilst also wishing the best for someone in the actions they want to take, is possible. Supporting someone's decision doesn't mean you're raving about their death.
I find myself seeing the points of everybody involved. I think we're all too involved in other peoples deaths and that's the real problem. Everybody wants to point fingers at who's wrong when really, we need to focus on the person passing if we're gonna interact with a good-bye post.
I genuinely do think one thing we should all agree on is don't go on those posts to argue with people of opposing views, it's disgraceful. That goes for everybody, not just extremists of either sides.
There's nothing wrong with letting other people know they don't have to rush themselves. Some people are overlooking the fact that sometimes treatment methods are literally unknown to the person passing. When we ask if there's anything that can be done, it isn't to deter, it is to put things into perspective. There's been times when people suggest things to others and they are absolutely willing to try despite wanting to die.
I know that I want to die no matter what. I've tried all I can and for anything left back, I don't care. I don't have the fight, Im worn out and don't have the energy or the will, my body's even attacking itself at this point. But I have NEVER been upset at someone asking if I've tried all I can. I may be tired of the question but it is VERY CLEAR when people have the intent to force life down your throat, vs people who have your best interest at heart and are concerned.
The real problem is everybody wants to view other peoples deaths the way they view their own. Stop it.
Edit: everybody isn't capable of being 100% ready to ctb. Some people have certain fears that can't push them to 100% readiness but that doesn't mean they can't choose what they want. It doesn't make them wanting to ctb any less valid. Nobody on here should be trying to save anybody. That is what the rest of the world is for. What we are here to do is offer support/receive support if needed. I'm not saving anybody and I have no problem being a bystander. However if you're doing something impulsively and it's clearly not going to work, will likely harm you to the point you couldn't even reattempt if you wanted to. Then I have no problem letting someone know they should try later if they actually want success. What's the point of encouraging harm during a suicide attempt that won't succeed? If you want to self harm in the moment don't attempt suicide they are very different and ones permanent.
Some of you claiming you're not pro life, do share similar ideas as pro-lifers. Some of you claiming you're not pro death extremists, are definitely pro-death extremists. Key word is SOME. we don't all fit into the same category. When looking at all that I mentioned earlier, suicidality is like a spectrum and we do not all fall on the same area. Just like anything else in life that isn't one way and one way only.
I see nothing wrong with OP asking if theres anything that can be done medically. Nobody truly wants people to die they want people to have livable lives they want to participate in.
It is sad when someone dies of suicide but it's what they want. That's the point of being pro-choice. Acknowledging the seriousness and the sadness of suicide whilst also wishing the best for someone in the actions they want to take, is possible. Supporting someone's decision doesn't mean you're raving about their death.
I find myself seeing the points of everybody involved. I think we're all too involved in other peoples deaths and that's the real problem. Everybody wants to point fingers at who's wrong when really, we need to focus on the person passing if we're gonna interact with a good-bye post.
I genuinely do think one thing we should all agree on is don't go on those posts to argue with people of opposing views, it's disgraceful. That goes for everybody, not just extremists of either sides.
There's nothing wrong with letting other people know they don't have to rush themselves. Some people are overlooking the fact that sometimes treatment methods are literally unknown to the person passing. When we ask if there's anything that can be done, it isn't to deter, it is to put things into perspective. There's been times when people suggest things to others and they are absolutely willing to try despite wanting to die.
I know that I want to die no matter what. I've tried all I can and for anything left back, I don't care. I don't have the fight, Im worn out and don't have the energy or the will, my body's even attacking itself at this point. But I have NEVER been upset at someone asking if I've tried all I can. I may be tired of the question but it is VERY CLEAR when people have the intent to force life down your throat, vs people who have your best interest at heart and are concerned.
The real problem is everybody wants to view other peoples deaths the way they view their own. Stop it.
Edit: everybody isn't capable of being 100% ready to ctb. Some people have certain fears that can't push them to 100% readiness but that doesn't mean they can't choose what they want. It doesn't make them wanting to ctb any less valid. Nobody on here should be trying to save anybody. That is what the rest of the world is for. What we are here to do is offer support/receive support if needed. I'm not saving anybody and I have no problem being a bystander. However if you're doing something impulsively and it's clearly not going to work, will likely harm you to the point you couldn't even reattempt if you wanted to. Then I have no problem letting someone know they should try later if they actually want success. What's the point of encouraging harm during a suicide attempt that won't succeed? If you want to self harm in the moment don't attempt suicide they are very different and ones permanent.
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homesoon.
i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶n̶i̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶b̶a̶c̶k̶.̶
- Apr 15, 2024
- 95
I think a lot of people who come here and then complain about sasu becoming "too mainstream," pretty much not being "pro-suicide" enough, or not having what they were looking for at all (e.g., practically exact instructions on how to cbt and where to get the method in easy-bake steps), tend to forget that this website is for people to openly discuss their feelings relating to depression and suicide, provide information relating to suicide (both good and bad), and IS NOT TO ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO ACTUALLY CBT OR SELF-HARM.
As op posted, you can respect the fact that someone is suicidal while also trying to help them through being suicidal. Similarly, if I posted that I was wanting to cbt or was about to do so, I wouldn't be surprised if someone responded empathetically because we are all human beings who simply recognize what it feels like to experience psych-ache without also solely condoning cbt AND not suppressing to choice/right to do so at the same time.
Welcome to my TED Talk.
DeathOfKane
Member
- Apr 5, 2024
- 65
I completely agree. I think some people are looking for a death eco chamber instead of an expression site and that's the real issue. Instead of leaving they want to berate others for using the site the way they do.
Raindancer
Specialist
- Nov 4, 2023
- 323
I can only add to this from my perspective. I think like many I lurked for quite awhile before joining. During this time I felt that the "pro death, life is pointless" were the majority. When I began to post it was very sporadic and careful as I didn't want to offend or go against the forum rules. This is the time I began to notice two things. One there were a lot more people who seemed pro choice, but also admitted they could never let a friend or family commit CTB without trying to stop and offer help, up to not calling police or having them be admitted to a hospital. The second thing I noticed was people stating things as fact, that are opinion. Since we have a wide variety of people and beliefs, I would try to preface what I said, with "this is my opinion" or "I personally believe X"
Over time, I began to personally feel I had a decent vibe for those not sure about what they were doing, or were open to me asking questions about other options. And those whose minds were not only made up, but were not open to suggestions and only wanted support of their decision to CTB. For those I cannot get a read on, I usually will ask questions to try and get a better feel.
As many say, ctbing is final. Not only would I want some push back, it's nice to know people care enough to want to make sure this is your time. As the OP stated, most would want to live if the things that were causing them to want to CTB were resolved. That question is almost asked every or every other week and just read the responses.
Lastly I have only seen one time where someone was told the meaningless platitudes of "if you just give it a chance it will get better" and they were reported immediately Other than that I have only seen caring questions of concern or advice if the method could end really badly. Yet accusations of pro lifers persist.
Over time, I began to personally feel I had a decent vibe for those not sure about what they were doing, or were open to me asking questions about other options. And those whose minds were not only made up, but were not open to suggestions and only wanted support of their decision to CTB. For those I cannot get a read on, I usually will ask questions to try and get a better feel.
As many say, ctbing is final. Not only would I want some push back, it's nice to know people care enough to want to make sure this is your time. As the OP stated, most would want to live if the things that were causing them to want to CTB were resolved. That question is almost asked every or every other week and just read the responses.
Lastly I have only seen one time where someone was told the meaningless platitudes of "if you just give it a chance it will get better" and they were reported immediately Other than that I have only seen caring questions of concern or advice if the method could end really badly. Yet accusations of pro lifers persist.
Spectre
I am serious about not taking things seriously
- Nov 27, 2023
- 234
I replied already... but I will say it again, just be careful with wherever anyone takes advice.
There are a handful of users here with thousands of posts that love to attack the forum daily and tell people they are not suicidal enough and shouldn't be here.
For me, we should always be pro-choice. Being pro-death to me is beyond evil, everyone has a chance of recovery and only the individual can decide what's best for them.
Stay safe and be gentle on yourself. A suicide forum is not going to attract people with good mental health.
There are a handful of users here with thousands of posts that love to attack the forum daily and tell people they are not suicidal enough and shouldn't be here.
For me, we should always be pro-choice. Being pro-death to me is beyond evil, everyone has a chance of recovery and only the individual can decide what's best for them.
Stay safe and be gentle on yourself. A suicide forum is not going to attract people with good mental health.
toro
dr pepper drinker
- Feb 11, 2023
- 119
i've noticed this problem too, a long time ago there was also a thread I saw where someone (dead serious) said that it was pro-life to feel sad about someone's successful attempt and to have hoped that they would recover, its insane to me!!! being pro choice does not eliminate someones empathy or grief, you can acknowledge that someone deserves to make that choice while also mourning them and the hole they have left in your life.
most of the community is lovely, but there seems to be a small group of 'predators' that discourage any sort of positive sentiment... it sucks that its only those 'predators' that news publications will ever pay attention to :(
most of the community is lovely, but there seems to be a small group of 'predators' that discourage any sort of positive sentiment... it sucks that its only those 'predators' that news publications will ever pay attention to :(
lovedread
hell is other people
- Jan 2, 2020
- 213
I think the "anti pro life" people are getting seriously ridiculous. And im not really talking about FC because thats just one person. Im more so talking about the people who are attacking you for some reason. It's natural to not glorify suicide but still be suicidal. I think your post was spot on.
Gonna be blunt here a lot of you guys are…i dont even know. I dont really know what to say to people who get genuinely upset and offended that there are people on this site who don't see suicide as this magical ending. Some of us do value life to an extent. That doesn't make our pain and suicidal thoughts leas real. I get that most of you don't know want help or recovery. Its understandable. You have a right to refuse "unsolicited advice". But some of us don't like seeing those goodbye threads. Speaking for myself, I don't see suicide as this neutral thing. I think that's myopic. I see suicide as a result of society neglecting its disabled, mentally ill population and as something deeply political. I dont think that it's something unpreventable, like cancer. I dont know why there's so much snark in this thread from "pro-death" or "anti pro life" users. Not all of us are antinatalists. Some of you are pro-suicide and while you have the right to that belief, please understand that that IS an extremist view. A lot of yall outright glorify this shit. Stop expecting the rest of us to believe in that. And the strawmaning and outrage in this thread is just ridiculous…I can understand not empathizing with those of us who are suicidal, I have no problem with that at all. But it is odd to get actively upset when you see someone else care that another person wants to take their own life (granted that person is not being out of touch or saying irritating things etc). Like having empathy is no-no now??? I dont remember this being an issue when i first joined
This site is becoming some parody version of itself
And again you can glorify suicide as a solution for yourself. Everyone here has a right to do that and at one point I did that too. But it's unreasonable to be mad that other people don't
Gonna be blunt here a lot of you guys are…i dont even know. I dont really know what to say to people who get genuinely upset and offended that there are people on this site who don't see suicide as this magical ending. Some of us do value life to an extent. That doesn't make our pain and suicidal thoughts leas real. I get that most of you don't know want help or recovery. Its understandable. You have a right to refuse "unsolicited advice". But some of us don't like seeing those goodbye threads. Speaking for myself, I don't see suicide as this neutral thing. I think that's myopic. I see suicide as a result of society neglecting its disabled, mentally ill population and as something deeply political. I dont think that it's something unpreventable, like cancer. I dont know why there's so much snark in this thread from "pro-death" or "anti pro life" users. Not all of us are antinatalists. Some of you are pro-suicide and while you have the right to that belief, please understand that that IS an extremist view. A lot of yall outright glorify this shit. Stop expecting the rest of us to believe in that. And the strawmaning and outrage in this thread is just ridiculous…I can understand not empathizing with those of us who are suicidal, I have no problem with that at all. But it is odd to get actively upset when you see someone else care that another person wants to take their own life (granted that person is not being out of touch or saying irritating things etc). Like having empathy is no-no now??? I dont remember this being an issue when i first joined
This site is becoming some parody version of itself
It's really fucking weird tbh. Cannot emphasize how much I do not remember this being an issue a few years ago. It's like they're trying to make the site more extreme, this place is fine as is.
And again you can glorify suicide as a solution for yourself. Everyone here has a right to do that and at one point I did that too. But it's unreasonable to be mad that other people don't
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Thanks to anti Natalists and pro mortalist this is why it happens. Thinking that death is the ultimate end all be all etc and that it's better than life in all circumstances
lovedread
hell is other people
- Jan 2, 2020
- 213
if ppl wanna be antinatalist thats their choice. i wont them shame them esp when theyre on this site, obv something traumatic af happened for them to get to that point. but id just like for them to understand not all of us can think that way or believe in that
Whale_bones
Specialist
- Feb 11, 2020
- 321
I looked back through this thread, and I really don't see strawmanning or outrage from the people who explained why pro-life sentiments are bothersome to them. I'm very much against glorifying or glamorizing suicide, and that also bothers me when I see it on this site. But that's a completely separate thing from being in support of someone's right to choose the time and manner of their own death.
This has a very personal relevance to me because I have an incurable, untreatable genetic disease and it's the reason my quality of life is so low. If all of society's other problems were solved, that wouldn't affect the main reason I'm suicidal. So seeing suicide as a result of society neglecting its disabled, mentally ill population, while true for plenty of people, also stops short of recognizing the full truth, and completely erases people like me.
My problem is in my *genes*, I was born with it, it's exactly as unpreventable as cancer. And if you acknowledge that the gene part wasn't preventable, but say the suicide part is, who does it put the responsibility on to "prevent" the suicide? Is it my responsibility, to bear unlimited suffering and a terrible quality of life? Or is it society's responsibility, because science hasn't advanced far enough to treat this disease? If it's the latter, how is that different from cancer?
I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to prevent my suicide. I think sometimes very bad things happen that have no fix or solution, and having the option to choose your time and manner of death is a good thing.
With that said, I know that most people won't experience something like this, so I don't expect others to understand or share my viewpoint. I feel strongly that there are plenty of situations where suicide isn't sad. If someone else says they always think suicide is sad, I don't expect them to change over to my viewpoint. We can both still believe in someone's right to choose the time and manner of their own death; these are just more complex nuances that it's understandable to have some differences on.
Personally, I can remember a big talking point here always being pro-life ideas and the stress they cause. For me it's seemed like a natural topic for discussion, because it goes hand in hand with this being a safe haven to express that you're pro-choice. I think it makes sense considering this is one of the very few spaces in life and society where you can express criticism against pro-life slogans and ideas.
AnonThinker
Member
- May 7, 2024
- 55
Looking at some of the responses I can see why the article I read about Sasu said people were edging others on to ctb and encouraging them to do it.
If you say helping someone through a particular situation that could be fixed is pro-life, then I'm pro-life because last week my sister told me she's ending it. What set her off? The delivery driver was rude. I'm not going to say to anyone that I hope they find peace and go peacefully, and oh here are different ways to do it, when it's something like what happened with my sister. To me, a situation like that is not life-ending stuff.
I get that for some people the smallest things can trigger you when you're already feeling suicidal and want to ctb. Asking someone if there's something that will make them feel better is not being pro-life. It's empathy (as others have said). Me saying to someone you should see a doctor about that issue, is not pro-life. It's wanting them to not feel shit all the time, as is the case with many chronic illnesses. Some people suffer from severe panic attacks, me telling them about the 3-3-3 method isn't being pro-life, it's me not wanting them to not feel even shitter than they already are.
Why MUST people who want to ctb feel shit all the time? It doesn't have to be shit all day, every day. And it's valid to ask people if they're sure they want to ctb right now, when we're not sure their plans are all that good, or if they show some hesitation. I've seen accounts on here that date back as far as 2018, those people haven't ctb. Yes, some don't care about it anymore due to other feelings. But we don't question them on why they are still alive and haven't done ctb, regardless of them not caring about it anymore. If you don't care, why not do it? Not caring shouldn't make a difference, it should make it easier.
And there are some people like me. I won't cbt until my mom dies. So that could also be years. Even though there are days I don't want to live and end it. It's nice when people ask if there's anything they can do (as much as online can do). Or ask for more details to understand better. Even though they have their own shit. Doesn't make them pro-life. It's empathy and everybody deserves that.
If you say helping someone through a particular situation that could be fixed is pro-life, then I'm pro-life because last week my sister told me she's ending it. What set her off? The delivery driver was rude. I'm not going to say to anyone that I hope they find peace and go peacefully, and oh here are different ways to do it, when it's something like what happened with my sister. To me, a situation like that is not life-ending stuff.
I get that for some people the smallest things can trigger you when you're already feeling suicidal and want to ctb. Asking someone if there's something that will make them feel better is not being pro-life. It's empathy (as others have said). Me saying to someone you should see a doctor about that issue, is not pro-life. It's wanting them to not feel shit all the time, as is the case with many chronic illnesses. Some people suffer from severe panic attacks, me telling them about the 3-3-3 method isn't being pro-life, it's me not wanting them to not feel even shitter than they already are.
Why MUST people who want to ctb feel shit all the time? It doesn't have to be shit all day, every day. And it's valid to ask people if they're sure they want to ctb right now, when we're not sure their plans are all that good, or if they show some hesitation. I've seen accounts on here that date back as far as 2018, those people haven't ctb. Yes, some don't care about it anymore due to other feelings. But we don't question them on why they are still alive and haven't done ctb, regardless of them not caring about it anymore. If you don't care, why not do it? Not caring shouldn't make a difference, it should make it easier.
And there are some people like me. I won't cbt until my mom dies. So that could also be years. Even though there are days I don't want to live and end it. It's nice when people ask if there's anything they can do (as much as online can do). Or ask for more details to understand better. Even though they have their own shit. Doesn't make them pro-life. It's empathy and everybody deserves that.
lovedread
hell is other people
- Jan 2, 2020
- 213
Okay. I can see your point. When I said I don't remember this being an issue a few years ago I wasn't talking about disliking pro-lifers or whatever, I was referring to the infighting. You're right when you say this is the only place there where pro-lifers get shitted on, so yeah I guess it isn't that big of a deal. I don't really understand the point you were trying to make with cancer. My statement wasn't 1:1 or supposed to be 100% literal. My point was that suicide isn't in a vacuum, and I see it as sad because I see it as a failure of society. I don't think you should be "responsible" for living life or that anyone should. I can't preach about "oh someone should never kill themselves" bc I want to kill myself. We all do. Thats how we got here. I do think that society and communities do have responsibility to make everyone's life worth living.
Obviously many disabilities are unpreventable, but the choice of that person choosing to end their life is often linked to not receiving adequate care or concern, mainly because most of the healthcare system is for-profit and society puts more resources into things like war or xyz frivolous thing instead of trying to help disabled people live better lives. But this is my view, not yours so I can understand why you don't agree. Not everyone will and that's OK. This isn't me trying to convince anyone to not take their life, that's anyone's choice as much as it's mine, and seeing as this game isn't changing anytime soon it might be the option that is more appealing. I can see why you believe that even in a utopia with societies problems all fixed you'd probably choose suicide. Maybe that's true. I'm not going to argue with you about that or try to minimize your suffering bc I can't imagine it. We can just agree to disagree bc I see things differently. I don't think that's erasure. My issue isn't with people disliking empty platitudes like "try therapy" "try reaching out"…we all pretty much hate those bc weve heard it all before. My issue was that people took offense to other people being sad about suicide and calling them prolife/out of touch/sensitive which is just unproductive IMO. Even though I think people are within their own right to choose suicide, I'll still think it's sad. Many of us will. We can't control how we feel. Those of you who feel apathetic or even relieved for that person are also within your right to feel that way. I just don't understand the expectation from some users (not all) for us to all feel that way. And speaking for myself ofc sometimes the concern others show ends up helping. But i can understand that's not what everyone needs or wants. Especially someone with your circumstances.
Can you not lump antinatalists in with pro mortalists....as an antinatalist I'm always told "why don't you just kill yourself then?" BY the pro-lifers! It's something I constantly have to argue against when it's literally just supposed to be about the morality of procreation. Obviously with myself there is overlap since I'm both antinatalist and suicidal, but that's not the case for us all. And I still want everyone else to "recover" (hate that word but yeah) and live if they can. I don't know if it's because FC is a prominent member who is an antinatalist AND promortalist that people think we're all like that but I argue against her all the time on anything promortalist.
1 TRILLION yeses on this as I am pro-choice, and I LOVE helping folks and helping to make them feel better about themselves.
Like one soul on here who always spews ultra negative downer crap, wonder if it is peat/repeat mode on the negative outlook.
I have been at the age of 68 through the mill of life EXTREMELY hard and no what I try and bring a smile and hope to anyone and everyone always and I am PRO-CHOICE 100% on suicide, abortion, EVERYTHING as it is a GOD given right to choose for one's self and I LOVE PRO-LIFERS AND PRO-SUICIDE Folks, let the individual decide WITHOUT OUTSIDE INFLUANCE and this is not bad unlike what some or a person on here might always spew about.
Love and hugs to EVERYONE on here.
Walter
Like one soul on here who always spews ultra negative downer crap, wonder if it is peat/repeat mode on the negative outlook.
I have been at the age of 68 through the mill of life EXTREMELY hard and no what I try and bring a smile and hope to anyone and everyone always and I am PRO-CHOICE 100% on suicide, abortion, EVERYTHING as it is a GOD given right to choose for one's self and I LOVE PRO-LIFERS AND PRO-SUICIDE Folks, let the individual decide WITHOUT OUTSIDE INFLUANCE and this is not bad unlike what some or a person on here might always spew about.
Love and hugs to EVERYONE on here.
Walter
