Nitrogen gas execution of Kenneth Eugene Smith sees him "shake and writhe on the gurney, sometimes pulling against the restraints

[leloyon]

I'm not really adding anything that hasn't already been said before, but I'd say this was due to him actively fighting against the execution, rather than necessarily a problem with the nitrogen.
The part about the oxygen mask as opposed to a hood or chamber sounds plausible to me, but I don't know enough about the inert gas method to say for certain. So I guess "it just sounds right".
Personally, I think we should bring back the firing squad, or just a bullet or two to the back of the head, for that matter.
I'm pro-capital punishment, but more so as an alternative to life without parole. To me, it seems cruel to force someone to live an entire natural lifespan knowing there's no hope, their life ends here and they're never getting out, never going to be free again. It feels like there's little difference between life imprisonment without parole and the death penalty, considering either way they're condemned to die in prison, except the death penalty makes it so they spend less time in prison, and can go out painlessly (on paper, at least).

 

[Intoxicated]

Do you think much air was getting into this guys mask? I recall it being made very clear to me that using a regular O2 mask connected to nitrogen is a no go.

He could slightly shift the mask by facial muscles and make small gaps during his struggling attempts.

 

[outrider567]

Alabama officials leave much to be desired--All they had to do was call Kenneth Law secretly, get a tank, tubing, flowmeter, and an EEBD Hood, and it would have gone off much better

 

[leloyon]

Alabama officials leave much to be desired--All they had to do was call Kenneth Law secretly, get a tank, tubing, flowmeter, and an EEBD Hood, and it would have gone off much better

The cops meeting with Kenneth Law:

 

[Tears in Rain]

Like others have pointed out, the method will obviously take longer if the person resisted breathing, as some at the scene speculated:



Here's how the Daily Mail speculated the nitrogen setup might have looked:

They called it "22 minutes of agony". No sensationalism there then.

I'm surprised they didn't go for a chamber, similar to what they used years ago with poison.

The use of a gas chamber tends to trigger negative connotations related to the Holocaust. Philip Nitschke was worried about this when making his Sarco pods:

Alabama officials leave much to be desired--All they had to do was call Kenneth Law secretly, get a tank, tubing, flowmeter, and an EEBD Hood, and it would have gone off much better

Inside the 'violent execution' of 'writhing' Kenneth Eugene Smith

The 58-year-old convicted killer had a firefighters-style mask placed over his face as he was strapped to a gurney inside the execution chamber at the William C. Holman prison in Atmore, Alabama.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[On quest]

All any of us can do is guess what happened.
My guess is the mask they used was a five dollar oxygen mask with vents to allow in air.
So he was breathing a mix of oxygen and nitrogen.

I have read an article that explain the method they used and the type of mask that was used: NIOSH-approved type-C full facepiece supplied air respirator.

Alabama to carry out first nitrogen gas execution. How does it work?

The state plans to use a respirator face mask to replace Kenneth Eugene Smith’s breathing air with pure nitrogen, depriving him of the oxygen needed to stay alive.

www.tampabay.com

I wonder if the bag technique is better for avoiding the choking effect?
I wish there will be studies done on the topic.

 

[MBG]

Pls clarfy whre u gt th/ specfc infrmatn on timngs

There were 2 different articles about 2 different witnesses. One is linked below, the other I did not save and my browser is set up to delete everything once I leave a page (so no back arrow, no history).

Putting them together gave death either 5 min or 8 min after first breath. There was still ambiguity in statements (the witnesses weren't medical professionals). I went with the longer time period so that any forthcoming statement from state officials would better news rather than worse (ie, quicker death). 8 min is fine and 5 min is even better.

 

[Glandular]

Putting them together gave death either 5 min or 8 min after first breath. There was still ambiguity in statements (the witnesses weren't medical professionals). I went with the longer time period so that any forthcoming statement from state officials would better news rather than worse (ie, quicker death). 8 min is fine and 5 min is even better.

5 - 8 min after first breath matches what we know from various sources. My take on the whole situation is this:
In the beginning he was actively fighting it by holding his breath, moving violently and maybe even displacing the mask a bit. Eventually he started breathing Nitrogen, still fighting it, but becoming unconscious. Then it roughly took around 3 - 10 minutes until death in a proper setup like here.

 

[thewalkingdread]

The use of a gas in this case has generated a massive anti-death penalty hysterical, sensationalist, coverage about it.

If you read the comments about it, the majority of people are holding completely dellusional beliefs — that range from saying that this was cruel torture ... to actually saying that the gassing done by Nazis is back...Holocaust is back!

FFS ... This world has lost touch with reality... people need to get real... Rationality, balance, science and facts are the first to go down the shitty toilet...

 

[Intoxicated]

Inside the 'violent execution' of 'writhing' Kenneth Eugene Smith

The 58-year-old convicted killer had a firefighters-style mask placed over his face as he was strapped to a gurney inside the execution chamber at the William C. Holman prison in Atmore, Alabama.

www.dailymail.co.uk

It's funny how easily people confuse violent execution and violent resistance to the execution.

 

[thewalkingdread]

 

[penguinl0v3s]

I'm surprised they didn't go for a chamber, similar to what they used years ago with poison.

It would probably give Holocaust vibes and like be 1000x more severity in bad press. Can you imagine what the headlines would be?

 

[G50]

Don't trust reporters: most are Leftists on a mission to ban the death penalty. The 22 minutes is from when the curtains were opened to when they were closed. The relevant time period is from when he started breathing 100% Nitrogen to when his heart stopped.

Don't trust this condemned murderer: during his "botched" lethal injection execution attempt he refused to make a tight fist with his hand to make his veins stand out. IOW his inaction helped "botch" the first execution attempt. He then claimed that the botched attempt gave him PTSD. Never forget this guy accepted money to kill a man's wife and he killed her. NEVER trust him, he's psycho.

Here, his pulling on the straps and writhing on the gurney were the first ~3 minutes when he was fighting with all his might to hold his breath: that was not pain from breathing Nitrogen. IOW he did that to himself and I'd bet was acting.

Once he breathed Nitrogen he quickly stopped writhing, breathed deeply for a few minutes (his body trying to "catch his breath" after holding it for as long as he could), and then stopped breathing. That took less than 8 minutes total. Those are the two times and behaviors that matter. Both indicate Nitrogen has offers quick, painless unconsciousness followed a few minutes later by death. Just what I want.

You may well be right.

I only brought up this prisoner's struggling because as I detailed in my thread here, when I tested out my homemade debreather device (made from a medical CO2 scrubber), I got a strong feeling of oxygen starvation and strong desire to breathe fresh air at about the 5 minute point.

Of course a debreather is not the same as pure nitrogen gas, as with a debreather, oxygen levels go down slowly over a few minutes, whereas with the inert gas method, oxygen it completely cut off the instant the nitrogen gas is introduced.

 

[MBG]

More times in this article. Some descriptions may be biased.

As best I can tell:

7:57 Gas flow began, ~2 min shaking & writhing on gurney while holding breath
7:59 Breathing begins (for 5-7 min)
8:02 unconscious; breathing infrequently
8:08 pm movement stopped, no perceptible breathing

ECG should time when his heart stopped

So 10 min from first breath to death; gas continued to ensure death

How America's first nitrogen gas execution unfolded

Kenneth Eugene Smith, 58, was put to death in Alabama on Thursday night. The state employed a nitrogen gas method previously unused in executions.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Old Friend]

It would probably give Holocaust vibes and like be 1000x more severity in bad press. Can you imagine what the headlines would be?

The gas chamber was used in the US well after the holocaust and the BBC are reporting that he was "gassed" anyway. I think the vibes would largely be the same.

 

[thot88]

For example, an electric chair looks bad because it affects the body, causing shivering.
Although the electricity passing through the brain causes unconsciousness.

I'm against the death penalty, but they could combine sedation with tranquilizers with that method because it happens against the will. Unlike suicide/euthanasia

 

[thewalkingdread]

The biggest misinformation/lie/manipulation in this case, by most of the media outlets, is the suggestion that nitrogen hypoxia is equivalent to suffocating or choking someone until he's dead...

(This is also due, in part, to the lawyer's sophistry... because the media outlets are uncritically reproducing the emotional appeals the lawyer made in order to create a social outrage)

It's just gross how they mislead the public opinion...

 

[Tears in Rain]

Someone mentioned before that Dr. Philip Nitschke was involved in this case. He links articles on the Exit International website that talk about him being called as a witness for the prosecuted Smith.
Center.

'Much of what is known about death by nitrogen gas comes from industrial accidents or suicide attempts. Dr. Philip Nitschke, a euthanasia expert who designed a suicide pod using nitrogen gas and appeared as an expert witness for Smith, said nitrogen can provide a peaceful, hypoxic death, but said he has concerns about Alabama's proposal to use a mask.

Nitschke told The Associated Press that Smith's facial hair, jaw movements and involuntary movements as he feels the effect of the nitrogen could impact the seal. If there are leaks, Smith could continue to draw in enough oxygen, "to prolong into what could be a very rather macabre, slow process of slowly not getting enough oxygen," Nitschke said. He said he could envision scenarios where the execution goes quickly or seriously awry.'

There's also photos of him posing with Smith on the Exit International site.

News - Exit International

Exit International provide Information and guidance on assisted suicide and end of life matters – Dr Philip Nitschke.

www.exitinternational.net

 

[thewalkingdread]

Sounds to me that Philip Nitschke is being oportunistic and trying to "cash in" over this case as a marketing strategy for his Sarco pod...

 

[color_me_gone]

A lot of good points made by people in this thread.

This was originally my method of choice when I first joined SS.

What appealed to me was the statement that one would be unconscious within a few seconds.

What soured me on this method was "within a few seconds" turns out to be a BEST case scenario.

In actuality, people were reporting it taking longer, in some cases, much much longer to go unconscious.

That extra time is spent in terror, providing ample opportunity for SI to kick in.

Also:
It seems the sticky point of this method has always been the bag over your head.

Most people prefer a mask, but a mask has always been discouraged.

Re the execution:
First off, trying to hold his breath was causing the individual pain, because CO2 buildup is very uncomfortable.

This discomfort probably caused him to fight the restraints.

And remember, He already successfully botched up a previous execution attempt which used N.

So, there was no reason for him to think he couldn't do that again.

Personally:
I still think this is a good method, albeit costly and technically complicated.

Not a good method for you if you struggle with SI.

I prefer SN method now, although it is becoming very hard to get.

Thanks to SS, I am no longer wanting to ctb, but been there before, so ?

 

[Intoxicated]

In actuality, people were reporting it taking longer, in some cases, much much longer to go unconscious.

Most likely, they did something wrongly or their stories are fictional. In case of using a plastic bag, the lowest time can be achieved if the bag is prefilled with the chosen asphyxiant and the maximal amount of air is exhaled from the lungs before placing the bag over the head. If there is a gap through which the ambient air can be sucked in, all inhalations inside the bag should be done gradually.

That extra time is spent in terror, providing ample opportunity for SI to kick in.

Meanwhile some people intentionally produce hypoxia using inhalants for getting high without even trying to die :-)

 

[color_me_gone]

Meanwhile some people intentionally cause hypoxia using inhalants without even trying to die :-)

It has been said more than once here on SS:

If only it was as easy to die intentionally as it is to die by accident.
Murphy's law still rules.

 

[thewalkingdread]

This girl inadvertently made a "test run" with helium... (And balloon helium is not even that pure)





This other one fell straight to the ground:

 

[Tears in Rain]

What soured me on this method was "within a few seconds" turns out to be a BEST case scenario.

In actuality, people were reporting it taking longer, in some cases, much much longer to go unconscious.

That extra time is spent in terror, providing ample opportunity for SI to kick in.

From what I've seen in the inert gas megathread, it usually takes 30-60 seconds to go unconscious with an exit bag or hood, while one person who did a blackout test with a SCUBA mask(holding it in his hand, not strapped to his head) took roughly 15 seconds/3 deep breaths to go unconscious. But yeah, S.I. has gotten the better of some people in this time, ripping off the hood.

Also:
It seems the sticky point of this method has always been the bag over your head.

Most people prefer a mask, but a mask has always been discouraged.

The SCBA mask has been put forward by some previously on this site as the best inert gas method because of their perfect mask seal, and quicker loss of consciousness compared to the bag/hood. Quality SCUBA masks also have a good seal to prevent O2 entering.

 

[color_me_gone]

it usually takes 30-60 seconds

60 seconds will feel like 6000 seconds in that situation, at least for me.

SCBA mask has been put forward by some previously on this site as the best inert gas method

I was aware of that, but I haven't followed that closely.

 

[Argo]

So there are a few ways to interpret this.

One is that someone who is being executed, does not want to die. If you try to force someone to die, there will be a very pronounced struggle. As a suicidal person, you have to put yourself in the shoes of someone who may want nothing more than to just live, even suicidal people who wish and beg for death, struggle with death. Now imagine someone who desperately wants to live.

Second, there's an incentive to lie about peaceful methods, because suicide is a taboo. We live in a very corrupt world, especially when it comes to prison systems, which are basically evil and serve as glorified torture chambers rather than anything that has even a drop of justice associated with it. No one knows if the method itself was properly functioning for a peaceful death, so that's always a possibility.

There is no reason to think Nitrogen is a bad method when properly performed.

 

[Intoxicated]

60 seconds will feel like 6000 seconds in that situation, at least for me.

Try nitrous oxide. It will help you relax.

Spoiler: Passing out from nitrous oxide

 

[Tears in Rain]

60 seconds will feel like 6000 seconds in that situation, at least for me.

Yeah, it can be a problem for some people. One person a couple of months back had a problem like that. They were able to get to about 15 seconds, but S.I. caused them to rip off the hood. I guess it depends how bad your S.I. is:

I tried this today, felt MUCH much better, no panic response at all, actually felt like breathing normal air. I think I made it 15-20 seconds this time (I took 8 relatively slow breaths) and I know it was pure SI that got in the way. No effects though so I think I'm far from blackout. I don't think I'm in the right mindset for it today so just gotta save it for a day where I'm really feeling it.

I since saw a post of theirs in the Recovery section last month, so maybe it wasn't their time.

 

[BornToFail]

Don't trust reporters: most are Leftists on a mission to ban the death penalty. The 22 minutes is from when the curtains were opened to when they were closed. The relevant time period is from when he started breathing 100% Nitrogen to when his heart stopped.

Don't trust this condemned murderer: during his "botched" lethal injection execution attempt he refused to make a tight fist with his hand to make his veins stand out. IOW his inaction helped "botch" the first execution attempt. He then claimed that the botched attempt gave him PTSD. Never forget this guy accepted money to kill a man's wife and he killed her. NEVER trust him, he's psycho.

Here, his pulling on the straps and writhing on the gurney were the first ~3 minutes when he was fighting with all his might to hold his breath: that was not pain from breathing Nitrogen. IOW he did that to himself and I'd bet was acting.

Once he breathed Nitrogen he quickly stopped writhing, breathed deeply for a few minutes (his body trying to "catch his breath" after holding it for as long as he could), and then stopped breathing. That took less than 8 minutes total. Those are the two times and behaviors that matter. Both indicate Nitrogen has offers quick, painless unconsciousness followed a few minutes later by death. Just what I want.

I don't even think being against the death penalty is a liberal talking point.

Yes, most liberals are against the government killing its own citizens due to moral reasons. However, most Americans would agree that there really is no point in having it. Appeals last for many decades, it costs more money than life in prison, we have executed wrongfully convicted peoples, even children, and the punishment does not seem to serve as a deterrent to crime.

Also, I would stay away from using terms like "psycho" when you have none of his medical records.

Heartless, remorseless, evil, unethical...? Surely.

However, there are many with all four of those aforementioned traits that are capable of telling the truth.

Please keep in mind, America has a rather bitter history with a less than ethical justice system abusing its citizens. We banned capital punishment for minors only back in 2005. I really fail to see how anyone could make an argument for the death penalty that is based in logic with regard to the USA.

I do apologize for going off on a tangent, but I don't think labelling all media persons as "liberals" is productive.

MBG... Your commentary was quite accurate. The only thing you said with which I disagree is when you asserted that this is a "Leftist" mission to ban death penalty.

While I do agree with you that many "Leftists" are indeed unconditionally against death penalty, to say that the media coverage of these cases is "left" biased is inaccurate.

Many "rightists" also believe that the death penalty should be banned. Many of them are also fervorous Christians who believe that "only God can take or give life"...

So... the death penalty is an issue that transcends the usual political cheerleading contest between "left" vs "right".

Once again all we can safely say is that here we have, once again, the pro-lifers bias tumultuating the public discussion with their misinformation, lies and manipulation to get what they want, at any cost.

Also, many on the right acknowledge that it serves no purpose at this point. It costs more money to kill someone, appeals drag the process on, and studies also suggest that it often brings no closure to the victim's family members often times.

Does the death penalty bring closure to a victim's family?

The last time anyone saw Julie Heath alive was Oct. 3, 1993, when the 18-year-old set out to visit her boyfriend in Hot Springs, Arkansas. A week later, a hunter discovered Heath’s body, less than eight miles from where her broken-down car was found. She wore a black shirt, socks and underwear...

www.pbs.org

Then you also won't agree with what this little "angel" did... I am not fully informed about the case, so I could be wrong, but this man was hired and killed a woman by stabing.

What about his victim?! She also wanted to live. But she didn't get a peaceful execution by inert gas... No... She was stabbed to death!

PS: I'm also against death penalty. But not for the "humane" or pro-life/religious reasons most people are.

If a family member was the one to kill him, I think I can speak for a lot of us and say we might not be against it.

Just the idea that a country, which sadly has a poor history in regard to being fair and just, should be allowed to kill its citizens...

It is what a lot of us are against. They still can't even find an execution method to agree on, they can't even get that right... This is terrifying for a country.

 

[Jarni]

I read this, I don't know if it is true, but maybe this can give some ideas:



"Hello. I work as an animal lab tech currently and one of the things I have to do on a regular basis is human euthanasia of mice, usually for medical reasons.

The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) have a lovely, long, dry publication called "AVMA Guidelines for the Euthanasia of Animals. The link is to the 2013 edition. This is what labs in the United States tend to follow for their guidelines of what is acceptable.

If you go down to pages 18-24, it lists inhaled agents with their pros and cons. With CO2, what is found to be most stressful to mice and rats is the speed. Once upon a time, the way to do it was to fill a box or cage with CO2 and then dump the animals in. This would cause instant stress. Now, there is a chart used to control the flow of the gas. At my job, we have a flow meter on our C02 tanks and a handy chart so people know where to set it. Once the mouse is on it's side and appears unconscious, we can increase the flow to speed up death, especially if there is a need for organ or blood collection.

Nitrogen is not used because even in slow measures, it is found that mice and rats find it to be very aversive. It also appears that they reach a hypoxic state before they unconsciousness more easily with Nitrogen (and Argon) versus CO2. This means that the animal is likely to endure more suffering.

I could go on more, but I think the guidelines will do a far better job of it than I."