Nitrogen gas execution of Kenneth Eugene Smith sees him "shake and writhe on the gurney, sometimes pulling against the restraints

[Adûnâi]

What he did was wrong and was done to him is wrong, you can't have both.

Exactly! Spoken like a true Enlightenment person!

 

[Tears in Rain]

I read this, I don't know if it is true, but maybe this can give some ideas:



"Hello. I work as an animal lab tech currently and one of the things I have to do on a regular basis is human euthanasia of mice, usually for medical reasons.

The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) have a lovely, long, dry publication called "AVMA Guidelines for the Euthanasia of Animals. The link is to the 2013 edition. This is what labs in the United States tend to follow for their guidelines of what is acceptable.

If you go down to pages 18-24, it lists inhaled agents with their pros and cons. With CO2, what is found to be most stressful to mice and rats is the speed. Once upon a time, the way to do it was to fill a box or cage with CO2 and then dump the animals in. This would cause instant stress. Now, there is a chart used to control the flow of the gas. At my job, we have a flow meter on our C02 tanks and a handy chart so people know where to set it. Once the mouse is on it's side and appears unconscious, we can increase the flow to speed up death, especially if there is a need for organ or blood collection.

Nitrogen is not used because even in slow measures, it is found that mice and rats find it to be very aversive. It also appears that they reach a hypoxic state before they unconsciousness more easily with Nitrogen (and Argon) versus CO2. This means that the animal is likely to endure more suffering.

I could go on more, but I think the guidelines will do a far better job of it than I."

I came across a research paper that looked at previous instances of nitrogen deaths and use on animals. It too said that mice and rats are more sensitive to lack of oxygen, and therefore show an aversion to nitrogen. But that was not the case for larger animals like pigs, etc.

 

[thot88]

And even though the media opposes this as a method of execution. So it doesn't matter because we know the truth about the method. And as long as the availability of argon, nitrogen and helium does not become difficult. Personally, I'm going to use this method to exit.

 

[thewalkingdread]

mice and rats are more sensitive to lack of oxygen,

This makes a lot of sense... Creatures that live under low oxygen environments might have a tendency to be more sensitive to it... This might be an adaptation by evolution.

That, however, doesn't mean Nitrogen is a "toxic" or "suffocating" gas as is being grossly suggested by some of those quoting veterinary studies that "concluded" that "animals" were "disturbed" by it.

 

[Tears in Rain]

This makes a lot of sense... Creatures that live under low oxygen environments might have a tendency to be more sensitive to it... This might be an adaptation by evolution.

That, however, doesn't mean Nitrogen is a "toxic" or "suffocating" gas as is being grossly suggested by some of those quoting veterinary studies that "concluded" that "animals" were "disturbed" by it.

Yeah, the piece I uploaded said that rats are sensitive to small changes of O2 in the air.

"Is Nitrogen Effective as a Method of Euthanasia?
...Approximately one and a half million cats and dogs are euthanized in the United States every year.To help veterinarians perform this as humanely as possible, the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) publishes a series of guidelines for animal euthanasia.
...Three basic euthanasia mechanisms are used to "minimize or eliminate pain, anxiety, and distress" before subjects lose consciousness: "(1) direct depression of neurons necessary for life function, (2) hypoxia, and (3) physical disruption of brain activity."

...Regarding nitrogen, the guidelines conclude that hypoxia resulting from nitrogen gas exposure is acceptable for euthanizing chickens, turkeys and pigs, but is not acceptable for rats, mice or mink.

B. Is Nitrogen Inhumanly Aversive in Animals?
... Aversion is the desire of the animal to avoid or retreat from a stimulus...Studies on animal aversion to inert gases usually consist of leading the subject into an oxygen deprived chamber, often enticed with food. Some animals will remain in the chamber until they fall unconsciousness, while some will leave the chamber immediately. For example, mink will enter a chamber containing 90 percent argon gas but will leave before falling unconscious. In another test, cats and dogs were removed from a gas chamber after they were rendered unconscious. Once the animals recovered, they were placed back in the chamber and observed for any signs of increased anxiety. The author of the study noted that "[o]ne cat went through this procedure three times and in no case did the animal display fear of the chamber." When examining aversion to nitrogen, small mammals appear to show more aversion than larger mammals or birds. Rats are sensitive to even small changes in the concentration of oxygen in the air."

 

[Fulminare]

The death penalty is extremely backwards. Doesn't have to do anything with being right or left wing imo. The damage has already been done - why spread the suffering even further? Executing an inmate is more expensive than keeping them alive either way.

 

[thewalkingdread]

Here it is: one more more person "inhumanely and cruely torturing" herself till she fades to black...




Here is another interesting vídeo (from a pure scientific POV) of someone who built a Nitrogen gas chamber to kill chickens:

 

[RichardFirst]

Full suspension, long drop hanging, if preformed by a professional hangman, is quick and clean. Albert Pierrepoint, the famous UK hangman, was able to hang someone in such a way that they would die within seconds from a broken neck. The science of ending a life in a humane way mastered decades ago, and there is really no need to be trying out these expensive and sensationalist means of execution.

Just on the matter of execution in general, I think that's far more cruel to lock someone up for years on end than it is to execute them. It's only very expensive to a society. What purpose is served by keeping someone alive after they have committed a terrible crime? Indeed, many people in prison for life would probably take a quick execution if it were offered. It's just one more way that modern society is very, very sick.

 

[thewalkingdread]

The death penalty is extremely backwards [...] why spread the suffering even further?

First things, first: I was very reluctant to respond to remarks like yours because I think the debate about the morality of capital punishment is not only a controvertial political subject but an huge off topic in this forum... I assume most of us are here, in this thread, due to the fact that one of the most peaceful methods for self-deliverance is being put to serious, unwarranted, undue, skepticism — if not outright defamation.

That being said, let's get to it...

I agree with with the general idea of what your last sentence expressed... i.e. about not spreading unnecessary suffering any further. Whatever evil that has been done is done and nothing — sadly — will fix or reverse all the damage done.

But in this man's case... was the suffering uncalled for?! Was It really unnecessary?!

(I'm not refering specifically to the death sentence he received but to the general idea of punishment that people in his circumstances would be expected to receive)

One of the key elements of what we think of "Justice" being served is punishment and some form retribution. There is no other way around it. People may disagree on what kind of punishment should be served (monetary fine, social work, prison, death, etc) but, in general, we all are somewhat inclined to think that there should be some kind of retributive, forced, punishment.

It seems obvious to me that this man's suffering was not in any way gratuitous — and he actually had to have some due punishment coming his way. Let's not "forget" that this man brutally murdered a woman by stabing her to death, for money.

Was the death penalty the best form of punishment in this case..?! There is no clear answer to that... and, as I said before, it's a very controvertial, heated, emotional, kind of debate that, in the end, won't make any difference to him... He's gone now.

PS: I actually think that most people in this forum, specially those who have the inert gas method as their preferred self-deliverance method, myself included, would not think that dying like that was a "real" punishment. And most people here in this forum, regardless of the method used, would be inclined to see death as a release... not a "cruel" punishment.

 

[Fulminare]

First things, first: I was very reluctant to respond to remarks like yours because I think the debate about the morality of capital punishment is not only a controvertial political subject but an huge off topic in this forum... I assume most of us are here, in this thread, due to the fact that one of the most peaceful methods for self-deliverance is being put to serious, unwarranted, undue, skepticism — if not outright defamation.

That being said, let's get to it...

I agree with with the general idea of what your last sentence expressed... i.e. about not spreading unnecessary suffering any further. Whatever evil that has been done is done and nothing — sadly — will fix or reverse all the damage done.

But in this man's case... was the suffering uncalled for?! Was It really unnecessary?!

(I'm not refering specifically to the death sentence he received but to the general idea of punishment that people in his circumstances would be expected to receive)

One of the key elements of what we think of "Justice" being served is punishment and some form retribution. There is no other way around it. People may disagree on what kind of punishment should be served (monetary fine, social work, prison, death, etc) but, in general, we all are somewhat inclined to think that there should be some kind of retributive, forced, punishment.

It seems obvious to me that this man's suffering was not in any way gratuitous — and he actually had to have some due punishment coming his way. Let's not "forget" that this man brutally murdered a woman by stabing her to death, for money.

Was the death penalty the best form of punishment in this case..?! There is no clear answer to that... and, as I said before, it's a very controvertial, heated, emotional, kind of debate that, in the end, won't make any difference to him... He's gone now.

PS: I actually think that most people in this forum, specially those who have the inert gas method as their preferred self-deliverance method, myself included, would not think that dying like that was a "real" punishment. And most people here in this forum, regardless of the method used, would be inclined to see death as a release... not a "cruel" punishment.

I wasn't talking about the inmate suffering while being executed. But the way his death will inevitably spread suffering to his loved ones and even people who are against this "justice" bs. It makes no goddamn sense. If you really wanted to make an inmate suffer then let them rot in the system. I've seen it and it's worse than death.

 

[thewalkingdread]

Before, you were against the death penalty because it was, according to you, furthering suffering:

The death penalty is extremely backwards. [...] why spread the suffering even further? Executing an inmate is more expensive than keeping them alive either way.

But now you are kinda in favour of it because rotting in prison is a worse fate?

If you really wanted to make an inmate suffer then let them rot in the system. I've seen it and it's worse than death.

I sense you have conflicting feelings about it... I think you can see how It is not a trivial, clear-cut, subject to debate ...

 

[UKscotty]

They probably should use CO, H2S or helium instead next time.

Would knock the inmate out a lot quicker giving less time to resist.

 

[dodo11]

I think it's misleading by the media again.

Of course the body will writher and thrash, its dying. Will be the same with any method that is not instant.

The main thing is he was smiling and unconscious, they should have focused on that.

The only true 'peaceful' methods if you don't want things like that are probably jumping or guns, which take you out in milliseconds.

I think you are right. Also, because it was a prisoner, they may have purposely not done it correctly to make him suffer a little. Anaesthetic doctors have treated prisoners similar to this when they have an operation. They purposely make them have a rough anaesthetic. I only saw it once, but I'm sure it happens all the time.

 

[thewalkingdread]

They probably should use CO, H2S or helium instead next time.

Would knock the inmate out a lot quicker giving less time to resist.

Not sure... CO and H2S are much more risky to handle due to their toxic nature. Helium is pretty much the same as Nitrogen but way more expensive...

I think they got a "good" working setup (good for the intended purpose).

I also think that KS just wanted to go down with a "Big Bang"... He knew it was the end of line for him and tried to cause an initial bad reaction, by pretending to agonize, so the people in charge would stop the execution right there and then. Obviously, it didn't work this time.

because it was a prisoner, they may have purposely not done it correctly to make him suffer a little

I think not. Because to do so would be insanely counter-productive... They wanted their new method to be "approved" by the rest of society. So it would be in their best interest to do everything as flawlessly as possible.

 

[Intoxicated]

They probably should use CO, H2S or helium instead next time.

Would knock the inmate out a lot quicker giving less time to resist.

Holding breath would delay execution with any gas. H2S would be a more deserved destiny for him though :-)

 

[Blurry_Buildings]

I dont know why they went out of their way to use nitrogen when there has been a push amongst some death penalty states for like 5 years now to reinstate the firing line. If they were going to try a new method the firing line is much more humane and instantaneous. I'm not sure I'd ever trust Alabama's department of corrections to get anything else right either lol.

 

[FadingFast2023]

Nothing in the course of my life has made me feel more intelligent, sane and normal then reading some of the comments on this forum.

 

[thewalkingdread]

Nothing in the course of my life has made me feel more intelligent, sane and normal then reading some of the comments on this forum.

Welcome to the desert of the real.

 

[Meditation guide]

Alabama authorities are claiming success and inviting other states to ask them how to do it. Meanwhile Nitschke says never use a mask with nitrogen, and it has to be done on someone willing.

 

[BeBraveBrother]

"Pulling" would mean that he is doing it conciously. But convulsions happen after that. So I find the title of the thread a bit misleading.

The problem I see is: This case doesn't give any information at all, accept for that the method is leading to death!
Why?
Because
- most of the spectators aren't scientist and can't really tell at what point the prisoner lost conciousnes
- most of the reporters have a very finite and strong opinion about if that should have even happend or not and will strongly see and report what they think is right, not what really happend
- we don't know at all how exactly the method was carried out and if there were any flaws (for example: was the mask sealed? )
- it is quite likely that the prisoner was panicking and fighting against the situation which is understandable if he didn't want to die
- if he was fighting against it, panicking, holding breath etc. this will definalty have prolonged the process till he knocked out and consequently how long this needed until it ended
- holding breath is definalty a reason why the exchange of the gases, that is needed in that method, is being disturbed: In order to not have the suffocating feelings before unconciousness I have to release the remaining carbon dioxide in my lungs and not rebreathe it !!!!!!!!!!
-> there is a perception for too much carbon dioxide in the body, not for lack of oxygen directly

No scientific records, no scientifically trained observers that don't have an ethical opinion on death penalty -> nothing to learn objectively about the process from this case

Yeah, the piece I uploaded said that rats are sensitive to small changes of O2 in the air.

"Is Nitrogen Effective as a Method of Euthanasia?
...Approximately one and a half million cats and dogs are euthanized in the United States every year.To help veterinarians perform this as humanely as possible, the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) publishes a series of guidelines for animal euthanasia.
...Three basic euthanasia mechanisms are used to "minimize or eliminate pain, anxiety, and distress" before subjects lose consciousness: "(1) direct depression of neurons necessary for life function, (2) hypoxia, and (3) physical disruption of brain activity."

...Regarding nitrogen, the guidelines conclude that hypoxia resulting from nitrogen gas exposure is acceptable for euthanizing chickens, turkeys and pigs, but is not acceptable for rats, mice or mink.

B. Is Nitrogen Inhumanly Aversive in Animals?
... Aversion is the desire of the animal to avoid or retreat from a stimulus...Studies on animal aversion to inert gases usually consist of leading the subject into an oxygen deprived chamber, often enticed with food. Some animals will remain in the chamber until they fall unconsciousness, while some will leave the chamber immediately. For example, mink will enter a chamber containing 90 percent argon gas but will leave before falling unconscious. In another test, cats and dogs were removed from a gas chamber after they were rendered unconscious. Once the animals recovered, they were placed back in the chamber and observed for any signs of increased anxiety. The author of the study noted that "[o]ne cat went through this procedure three times and in no case did the animal display fear of the chamber." When examining aversion to nitrogen, small mammals appear to show more aversion than larger mammals or birds. Rats are sensitive to even small changes in the concentration of oxygen in the air."

From my own experience I can tell that the sensitivity for oxygen (or the consequences of lack of oxygen) doesn't only vary between species but also between (human) individuals:
I went on a hiking trip on which we reached 3000 meters above sea level. I was feeling dizzy, lightheaded, my legs felt like rubber and I had some difficulties to move. At the same time I wasn't sure if I should find that situation unpleasant or be euphoric. My friend however didn't experience any difference at all and I've seen a lot of people on the viewing platform that didn't seem to have much difficulties either. Later I found a sign that was trying to draw attention that in this altitude some may experience some quick exhaustion due to the altitude and less oxygen and that this should be considered when walking around a lot.

People who climb the mount everest usually train themselves in base camps before they are able to climb higher. So it's also a matter of the physical condition based on individual factors.

 

[G50]

I read this, I don't know if it is true, but maybe this can give some ideas:

Interesting.

The publication mentioned in your link, namely "The American Veterinary Medical Association — Guidelines for the Euthanasia of Animals" provides a wide range of euthanasia methods on pages 22 to 48.

It details gas, drug and physical methods of euthanasia.

 

[Meditation guide]

You know guys there is no need to argue or act like it's important to fight about this subject as some seem to be doing here.

Just do or think whatever you want to. The information is out there. If you don't want to believe that prisoner suffered that's fine.

To say all reporters lie is not true. I assume that believing that means nothing that gets reported is believed. In fact, which is the REAL lie: that all reporters lie, or whoever told you that lied? Maybe, just maybe, someone is saying don't believe the news because they want to lie to you and have you believe THEM and their lies.

 

[thewalkingdread]

To say all reporters lie is not true

No one here in this thread have actually said that.

What most people in this thread have said is that the media coverage about this execution using Nitrogen gas was, for the most part, sensationalist and biased towards demonizing the method... All due to the anti-death-penalty rethoric.

Objective, informative, reporting has got to separate one thing from another. But they didn't.

The general idea from reports was that the "Nazi gas chambers" are back... That it was cruel and torture... That it was "suffocating" someone to death. All of these, if not outright lies, are misinformations... Period.

 

[Intoxicated]

Some children who witness sexual intercourse between their parents guess that it's a violent act, causing suffering. Why would the mommy moan, indeed? This must be something painful and awful.

It's very easy to misinterpret visible symptoms if you have too narrow understanding or consideration of their potential reasons. We have enough information to think that the prisoner could have motives to simulate agony and break the airtightness of the mask by his actions, leading to prolonged time to death.

 

[Eternal Sleep]

So....my two cents..
., I found an post online where Philip Nitschke was quoted as saying someone who is executed by nitrogen asphyxia would likely suffer, but he didn't elaborate as to why. Since all the suffering is caused by by the buildup up of carbon dioxide in your system, ideally if you didn't want to suffer you would just continue to breath normally, otherwise you would just be tormenting yourself by holding your breath and letting the CO2 levels rise and inducing the bodies panic response only to finally start gasping for breath and finding no oxygen..., if you breathed normaly when they turned on the nitrogen you would just pass out from lack of oxygen without the panic caused by the buildup of CO2 in your bloodstream. If they really wanted to do this humanely as a form of execution they should render the prisoner unconscious to prevent people from holding their breath before they provide 100% nitrogen to the inmate.....
So.......I found an post online where Philip Nitschke was quoted as saying someone who is executed by nitrogen asphyxia would likely suffer, but he didn't elaborate as to why. Since all the suffering is caused by by the buildup up of carbon dioxide in your system, ideally if you didn't want to suffer you would just continue to breath normally, otherwise you would just be tormenting yourself by holding your breath and letting the CO2 levels rise and inducing the bodies panic response only to finally start gasping for breath and finding no oxygen..., if you breathed normaly when they turned on the nitrogen you would just pass out from lack of oxygen without the panic caused by the buildup of CO2 in your bloodstream. If they really wanted to do this humanely as a form of execution they should render the prisoner unconscious to prevent people from holding their breath before they provide 100% nitrogen to the inmate.....
So.......I found an post online where Philip Nitschke was quoted as saying someone who is executed by nitrogen asphyxia would likely suffer, but he didn't elaborate as to why. Since all the suffering is caused by by the buildup up of carbon dioxide in your system, ideally if you didn't want to suffer you would just continue to breath normally, otherwise you would just be tormenting yourself by holding your breath and letting the CO2 levels rise and inducing the bodies panic response only to finally start gasping for breath and finding no oxygen..., if you breathed normaly when they turned on the nitrogen you would just pass out from lack of oxygen without the panic caused by the buildup of CO2 in your bloodstream. If they really wanted to do this humanely as a form of execution they should render the prisoner unconscious to prevent people from holding their breath before they provide 100% nitrogen to the inmate.....
So.......I found an post online where Philip Nitschke was quoted as saying someone who is executed by nitrogen asphyxia would likely suffer, but he didn't elaborate as to why. Since all the suffering is caused by by the buildup up of carbon dioxide in your system, ideally if you didn't want to suffer you would just continue to breath normally, otherwise you would just be tormenting yourself by holding your breath and letting the CO2 levels rise and inducing the bodies panic response only to finally start gasping for breath and finding no oxygen..., if you breathed normaly when they turned on the nitrogen you would just pass out from lack of oxygen without the panic caused by the buildup of CO2 in your bloodstream. If they really wanted to do this humanely as a form of execution they should render the prisoner unconscious to prevent people from holding their breath before they provide 100% nitrogen to the inmate.....
So.......I found an post online where Philip Nitschke was quoted as saying someone who is executed by nitrogen asphyxia would likely suffer, but he didn't elaborate as to why. Since all the suffering is caused by by the buildup up of carbon dioxide in your system, ideally if you didn't want to suffer you would just continue to breath normally, otherwise you would just be tormenting yourself by holding your breath and letting the CO2 levels rise and inducing the bodies panic response only to finally start gasping for breath and finding no oxygen..., if you breathed normaly when they turned on the nitrogen you would just pass out from lack of oxygen without the panic caused by the buildup of CO2 in your bloodstream. If they really wanted to do this humanely as a form of execution they should render the prisoner unconscious to prevent people from holding their breath before they provide 100% nitrogen to the inmate.....

 

[Intoxicated]

If they really wanted to do this humanely as a form of execution they should render the prisoner unconscious to prevent people from holding their breath before they provide 100% nitrogen to the inmate.....

How exactly could they sedate him without a risk of resistance or other agony simulation?

 

[BeBraveBrother]

No one here in this thread have actually said that.

What most people in this thread have said is that the media coverage about this execution using Nitrogen gas was, for the most part, sensationalist and biased towards demonizing the method... All due to the anti-death-penalty rethoric.

Objective, informative, reporting has got to separate one thing from another. But they didn't.

The general idea from reports was that the "Nazi gas chambers" are back... That it was cruel and torture... That it was "suffocating" someone to death. All of these, if not outright lies, are misinformations... Period.

That's right.
The threat is only serving the purpose to scaremonger and demonize.

There is no valuable information coming from that case at all for the reasons I described! (See my last comment).

I will not advocate death penalty.
Every humane should and can only judge for himself/herself if he or she wants to go on living.

I wouldn't recommend to go on discussing it, as it's just a dramatic circulation in the mind with no resolution.

And by the way:
A good and functional society would respect the individuals decision and would provide both options, which means councling and treatments and psychological/social help if someone needs help with living - but also the possibility to end ones life if that's individuals clear decision without second/third party interference.